Does the Qur'an Deny the Crucifixion of Jesus?

[nazz]

Quite on the contrary. That's like saying Qur'an did not say 'person XYZ has not been murdered' - so don't put those words in Gods mouth and say that 'person XYZ has not been murdered' even though XYZ is happily alive. You are free to believe someone else killed Jesus but that wouldn't have anything to do with the Qur'an.

We believe that the Jews conspired to kill Jesus (no one else) so according to that interpretation we are not adding anything to God's word. So it reads as follows - they(Jews) tried to kill Jesus, but they could not kill him neither crucify him, rather God raised him - we are not adding/inserting any assumptions here. As it reads :

"We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise" (Al Qur'an 4:157-158)

And once again, when Allah speaks of the story of Jesus(pbuh) in Chapter 3 (starting from around verse 45) He says : "Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme;..."(Al Qur'an 3:55)

Once again plain and simple ... God takes Jesus to Him by Raising Jesus to Himself. And Allah clearly states what He will do to Jesus. Did He forget to mention that he will die in the process too (God forbid)? And notice there is no 'They' for a specific group of people here - it is for all.

I've addressed 3:55 in this thread and pointed out many translators render it "cause you to die".

I'm not going to continue debating with you as this is going nowhere. You are not addressing my points but just keep accusing me of doing something I am not doing. It's unproductive.

To you, your religion; to me, mine.

peace

 

[nazz]

Bahais believe that Jesus sacrificed himself on the Cross, and that his sacrifice was efficacious.

thanks.

so I am assuming then that Bahai's also do not believe the Qur'an denies his crucifixion?

 

[Pastek]

I agree. But I am wondering what you as a Muslim see that specific mission as being?

Killing the anti-christ (dajjal), peace on earth, faith in God for everybody

You need to realize the importance of the RESURRECTION. Christianity would not even exist were it not for belief in that.

Christianity for me its the teachings of Jesus.

Or it's like saying that the most important about Elie's story, was his death/disparition.
Even if we had believed that Jesus died in the cross, it would have change nothing.
You said yourself that you don't believe that he died for our sins.

The majority did not believe. And do you know why? Because Jesus DIED. Jews do not believe the Messiah can die. At least not before he complete his messianic mission which according to their view Jesus did not do.

That was my point !
If they believe like the muslims that Jesus didn't die on the cross, then no more problems. But you said it, the majority didn't believe that he can die. And that's normal, he can't he's the Messiah

But how about addressing my point that People of the Book DO believe in Jesus now?

Good question, i don't know too.
I remember that one day i saw a palestinian christian saying that he didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, not even a prophet but he still called himself a christian.
I also saw an american saying that he was christian, but in reality he wasn't very sure about who was really Jesus.

So, maybe we can understand in this verse that it was about those who have let's say a "weak" faith or have doubts even if they still call themselfs christian.

(it's just a supposition from me )

 

[InvestigateTruth]

thanks.

so I am assuming then that Bahai's also do not believe the Qur'an denies his crucifixion?

That is right. We do not believe Quran denies Jesus Crucification.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Quite on the contrary. That's like saying Qur'an did not say 'person XYZ has not been murdered' - so don't put those words in Gods mouth and say that 'person XYZ has not been murdered' even though XYZ is happily alive. You are free to believe someone else killed Jesus but that wouldn't have anything to do with the Qur'an.

Dear LoverofTruth,

The verse 4:157, can be understood in different ways:

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain." (4:157)


1) One way, is that, as you said, Jesus was not crucified nor killed.

2) second way is that, the verse does not say, Jesus was not crucified, but it says, "they (the Jews) did not crucify Him", but it was Allah who wanted Him to be killed. In another Words, it was not Jews who thought they have power to crucify Jesus, but it was the Will of God for Jesus to be Cruicified and killed and ascend to Him.

and in fact there are other verses in Quran that says, God made Jesus Die:

"Remember when God said, "O Jesus! verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself and deliver thee from those who believe not; and I will place those who follow thee above those who believe not, until the day of resurrection. Then, to me is your return, and wherein ye differ will I decide between you." (3:55)

al-Imran 3:55

This view, is farther supported from Quran, that it is God, who makes everyone die, not others. For example:

"Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower" (Koran 8.17).

Does this mean the Muslims didn't fight? Clearly, the Moslems fought and slew them, but it was the Will of God.


3) the Third way, is that, the verse can be a spiritual verse, and not talking about the physical body of Jesus. It could be talking about the Spirit of Jesus that was not crucified nor killed.
This view is also supported by verses from Quran and Bible:

"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Corin. 15:44
"They will ask thee of the spirit. Say, 'The spirit comes at the bidding of my Lord, and ye are given but a little knowledge thereof.'" Quran 17:85

So, it could be that the verse is talking about, the Spiritual body, but not the natural body.

Therefore as you can see, the verse is not clear, as it can be interpreted in different ways.

It is part of Islam theology that there is a difference between Taweel and Tafseer.

The Taweel, means interpretation of verses that can have multiple meanings, and choosing the right meaning.
According to Quran 3:7, the verses that requires Taweel, only God and His chosen ones know their interpretations.

Moreover, Prophet Muhammad did not leave a Taweel. There are Tafseers that are attributed to Him.


Therefore, this verse requires Taweel (interpretation).

Moreover in verse 3:55 it says: "...wherein ye differ will I decide between you." (3:55)



Therefore, there is no reason we regular human beings say, Quran denies Jesus cruicification. Its knowledge is with God.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I've addressed 3:55 in this thread and pointed out many translators render it "cause you to die".

I'm not going to continue debating with you as this is going nowhere. You are not addressing my points but just keep accusing me of doing something I am not doing. It's unproductive.

To you, your religion; to me, mine.

peace

Here's 5 well known translations :

Sahih International
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

Muhsin Khan
And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Quran] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute."

Pickthall
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.


Yusuf Ali
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Shakir
And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

The word used is 'Mutawaffika' which means to recall. - so if one of the translators interpret that to mean 'death' cause that's the only thing they can think of for someone alive and missing from this world (cause they don't believe in supernatural miracles) - there's nothing we can do about that - but that is certainly not what the literal words used say as is proven by the 5 well known translations I have given above.

And it is really a futile attempt to pick who knows what(at least not so well known) translation to prove that Jesus died. See this is how far fetched you guys need to go to try to prove these unsupported claims. So I can understand why you don't wanna debate on this anymore - cause there's nothing more left to debate.

Peace.

 

[nazz]

Killing the anti-christ (dajjal), peace on earth, faith in God for everybody

But those things are not prevented by his death and resurrection. Remember the important thing here is we both believe Jesus is alive now.

Christianity for me its the teachings of Jesus.

Great! Me too!

Or it's like saying that the most important about Elie's story, was his death/disparition.

Jesus' death is NOT the most important thing.

Even if we had believed that Jesus died in the cross, it would have change nothing.
You said yourself that you don't believe that he died for our sins.

So if it changes nothing why is it so important for Muslims to deny it?

That was my point !
If they believe like the muslims that Jesus didn't die on the cross, then no more problems. But you said it, the majority didn't believe that he can die. And that's normal, he can't he's the Messiah

According to the Jewish way of thinking. But you and I are not Jews so what does it matter?

Good question, i don't know too.
I remember that one day i saw a palestinian christian saying that he didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, not even a prophet but he still called himself a christian.
I also saw an american saying that he was christian, but in reality he wasn't very sure about who was really Jesus.

Well there are always exceptions to the rule. But there are billions of people on earth today who believe in Jesus as Messiah.

What does the Qur'an say about verses which are hard to interpret?

So, maybe we can understand in this verse that it was about those who have let's say a "weak" faith or have doubts even if they still call themselfs christian.

(it's just a supposition from me )

But I don't think that really explains it as it says none of the People of the Book will believe in him.

 

[Pastek]

Jesus' death is NOT the most important thing.

So if it changes nothing why is it so important for Muslims to deny it?

Your question in this thread was "Does the Qur'an deny the crucifixion of Jesus"

You are supposed to use the verses of the Qu'ran, but you didn't explain some things.
So again :

4.157(...) but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge.


4.159 And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

According to the Jewish way of thinking. But you and I are not Jews so what does it matter?

So a muslim always have to be on opposition with jews according to you ?

Well there are always exceptions to the rule. But there are billions of people on earth today who believe in Jesus as Messiah.

Yes, but at last, this is a possible explanation of the verse. I'm waiting for your explanation.

 

[nazz]

Your question in this thread was "Does the Qur'an deny the crucifixion of Jesus"

You are supposed to use the verses of the Qu'ran, but you didn't explain some things.
So again :

4.157(...) but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge.

I did explain this somewhere. It appeared to the Jewish leaders that Jesus was done away with on the Cross. But in fact God raised him from the dead.

So a muslim always have to be on opposition with jews according to you ?

Well Christians, Jews, and Muslims are not ever going to agree on everything. That is why we follow different religions. I am trying to overcome ONE disagreement with you!

The Jewish expectations of the Messiah are not the same ones Christians have.

4.159 And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Yes, but at last, this is a possible explanation of the verse. I'm waiting for your explanation.

I don't really have one but that is why I brought up what the Qur'an itself says about some verses being clear and others not.

 

[F0uad]

I did explain this somewhere. It appeared to the Jewish leaders that Jesus was done away with on the Cross. But in fact God raised him from the dead.

Well according to me the cross was a symbol of inflicting anger, torture and fear among the people. There is a saying (Hadith) that says when Jesus(pbuh) comes back (second coming as the messiah) that he will destroy the cross.

Well Christians, Jews, and Muslims are not ever going to agree on everything. That is why we follow different religions. I am trying to overcome ONE disagreement with you!

The Jewish expectations of the Messiah are not the same ones Christians have.

Well i would agree and disagree there are many expectations that are the same for example the signs that will come before him and what hes task would be.

I don't really have one but that is why I brought up what the Qur'an itself says about some verses being clear and others not.

Well i think the verse is very clear: but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge.

 

[nazz]

Well according to me the cross was a symbol of inflicting anger, torture and fear among the people. There is a saying (Hadith) that says when Jesus(pbuh) comes back (second coming as the messiah) that he will destroy the cross.

Yes, I am familiar with that. I'm not sure what that has to do with my point?

Well i would agree and disagree there are many expectations that are the same for example the signs that will come before him and what hes task would be.

Yes, some things are the same but the point is Jews reject Jesus as Messiah because he did not fulfill their messianic expectations and they don't believe in a second coming of Messiah.

Well i think the verse is very clear: but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge.

It IS clear but as I have pointed out it only denies that the JEWS crucified him. I totally agree the Jews did not crucify Christ.

 

[F0uad]

Yes, I am familiar with that. I'm not sure what that has to do with my point?

To be honest i am not sure what your point was

Yes, some things are the same but the point is Jews reject Jesus as Messiah because he did not fulfill their messianic expectations and they don't believe in a second coming of Messiah.

Well the first time Jesus(pbuh) was walking on earth he didn't do anything messianic nor was it hes task since its hes second coming that he will do so. So in a sense Jesus(pbuh) was a prophet before and not a messiah but he will return as a messiah, moreover Jewish teachings are not relevant to Islam since they even rejected hes prophet-hood.

It IS clear but as I have pointed out it only denies that the JEWS crucified him. I totally agree the Jews did not crucify Christ.

Well are you suggesting that they wanted to crucify him twice one by the Jews and one by the Romans? its very clear that its talking about the event that is believed by Christians on the Cross. You forget that the Jews worked with Pilate and the Romans so both sides are to blame heck the Pharisees made false allocation's against him to eventually kill him.

 

[nazz]

To be honest i am not sure what your point was

I'll repeat it then:

I did explain this somewhere. It appeared to the Jewish leaders that Jesus was done away with on the Cross. But in fact God raised him from the dead.

Well the first time Jesus(pbuh) was walking on earth he didn't do anything messianic nor was it hes task since its hes second coming that he will do so. So in a sense Jesus(pbuh) was a prophet before and not a messiah but he will return as a messiah, moreover Jewish teachings are not relevant to Islam since they even rejected hes prophet-hood.

That's what I am saying. Jewish beliefs don't matter regarding this issue.

Well are you suggesting that they wanted to crucify him twice one by the Jews and one by the Romans? its very clear that its talking about the event that is believed by Christians on the Cross. You forget that the Jews worked with Pilate and the Romans so both sides are to blame heck the Pharisees made false allocation's against him to eventually kill him.

The Jewish leaders wanted him dead. But they were not permitted by Roman law to carry out executions. So they asked that the Romans crucify him.

It's conceivable that some Jewish opponents of Muhammad were boasting they crucified and killed the Christian messiah.

 

[F0uad]

I'll repeat it then:

I did explain this somewhere. It appeared to the Jewish leaders that Jesus was done away with on the Cross. But in fact God raised him from the dead.

Yeah the Romans also i agree.

That's what I am saying. Jewish beliefs don't matter regarding this issue.

Uhu.

The Jewish leaders wanted him dead. But they were not permitted by Roman law to carry out executions. So they asked that the Romans crucify him.

It's conceivable that some Jewish opponents of Muhammad were boasting they crucified and killed the Christian messiah.

Well they were boasting on how they killed previous prophets in the time of Mohammed(saws). Some jews still are boasting about it however the point is that both sides are two blame. For example if you and me are going to kill, i give you the weapon, tell you who to shoot and stand next to you when your shooting him am i also not to blame?

 

[nazz]

Well they were boasting on how they killed previous prophets in the time of Mohammed(saws). Some jews still are boasting about it however the point is that both sides are two blame. For example if you and me are going to kill, i give you the weapon, tell you who to shoot and stand next to you when your shooting him am i also not to blame?

Sure. But that was not exactly the situation. The Jews only requested the Romans crucify him.

 

[F0uad]

Sure. But that was not exactly the situation. The Jews only requested the Romans crucify him.

They surely gave up hes position heck its because of them that he was allegedly crucified. So because i didn't shoot the criminal but you did, i am not part of the crime?

 

[nazz]

They surely gave up hes position heck its because of them that he was allegedly crucified. So because i didn't shoot the criminal but you did, i am not part of the crime?

I'm not a legal expert. If I asked you to shoot someone and you did I'm not sure if I would be charged with a crime here in America. Now if I hire you to kill someone that is different and I think our laws would charge me with conspiracy to commit murder.

Ultimately the Jewish leaders had no leverage with the Romans. The Romans did as they pleased. They put Jesus to death because they were afraid he would incite the people to revolt.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not ( Qur'an 4:157, Yusuf Ali translation)

This passage is in reference to those Jews who boasted about killing Jesus..right? And according to what I read in the previous posts', the Quran is referring to the Jews who lived in the time of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and maybe even the Jews who were there when God made it appear that Jesus was crucified...But how about those Jews and Gentiles who didn't boast about killing Jesus or those who loved Jesus and witnessed him being crucified? Did God make it appear as if Jesus were crucified to them too? Because the early "Christians" were actually People of the Scripture..
And if God did make it appear to everyone that Jesus was crucified, How can God hold people accountable for believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus? It seems deceitful..

 

[arthra]

thanks.

so I am assuming then that Bahai's also do not believe the Qur'an denies his crucifixion?

There is a succinct reference to this as follows:

"...most Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified, but one who looked like Him was instead, based on their understanding of Qur'án 4:156. Shoghi Effendi, however, states that the Qur'ánic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate (Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669); this resolves an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. "

Abdul-Baha though also commented on the Qur'anic verse saying the the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified and that those who crucified Him were hoping they had killed His Cause... The disciples later rallied and understood that the martrydom of Jesus was not the end and that the Cause of Christ was "resurrected" spiritually:

"We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing."

9 October 1947 to an individual believer

 

[F0uad]

Just to add to the conversation Muslims use the Hadiths and tasfeer(context) to have clarification on what a verse says or doesn't say.

According to Sunni historical scriptures the verse clearly states that he was not crucified or killed so it doesn't mean to who or what person it was addresses. Also companions and people who were during the time live of Mohammed(saws) didn't belief that Jesus(pbuh) was crucified or killed, implying that Islam teaches something else means to suggest that hes companions either were ignorant, lied or didn't know.

Now regarding the Bahai they have there own interpretation of text.