Koran v. Bible

[1robin]

Yes, there are many evidences!
In the same Books I sent you and also you could find many more. For example in the Tablet that Baha'u'llah wrote to the Kings of His time.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts

For the details, you need to read them yourself. Then we can discuss.

I appreciate the info again but I am involved with so many threads and also work in a defence lab and post at the same time which leaves me short on research time. If you ask me about a concept in Christianity I will give you verses and commentaries, I would not tell you to read the bible. There are 272 pages at the site you linked to I can't comb through all that. Please copy and paste these teachings that only God could have produced and I will read and research them. Thank you.

 

[F0uad]

Robin i think your arguments really show a reflection on how you argue since you never really tackled on what i said but rather go around them, i think you made many fallacies and you just want to ''debate'' to win instead of learning or understand.

If you took time to understand my problems and issues with the preservation then we would at-least have a more intellectual discussion and go further into the issues.

 

[1robin]

Robin i think your arguments really show a reflection on how you argue since you never really tackled on what i said but rather go around them, i think you made many fallacies and you just want to ''debate'' to win instead of learning or understand.

If you took time to understand my problems and issues with the preservation then we would at-least have a more intellectual discussion and go further into the issues.

If you would have stated them clearly I would have discussed them in detail. Most of your contentions have been some general non specific assertions. When you did make a specific claim I addressed it . This post is confusing are you giving up on debateing the issue. I am interested in comparing the Quran and Bible concerning one of the most important issues. I have repeatedly asked you to challenge the bible until you are satasfied and then I will address the quran. You seem willing to do anything except for that, so I said for you to pick another issue and apparently you are not going to do that either. I am not saying that you are, but the way you have been posting lately it seems like you are scared of dealing with the issues we originally started discussing. I do not believe that is the truth but it looks that way and I can't think of any other reason you have stopped dealing with the issues and started discussing all these unrelated issues. It's up to you what do you want to do?

 

[F0uad]

If you would have stated them clearly I would have discussed them in detail. Most of your contentions have been some general non specific assertions. When you did make a specific claim I addressed it . This post is confusing are you giving up on debateing the issue. I am interested in comparing the Quran and Bible concerning one of the most important issues. I have repeatedly asked you to challenge the bible until you are satasfied and then I will address the quran. You seem willing to do anything except for that, so I said for you to pick another issue and apparently you are not going to do that either. I am not saying that you are, but the way you have been posting lately it seems like you are scared of dealing with the issues we originally started discussing. I do not believe that is the truth but it looks that way and I can't think of any other reason you have stopped dealing with the issues and started discussing all these unrelated issues. It's up to you what do you want to do?

The main thing we were discussing was the preservation not verses, internal passages or a crucifixion. You wanted me to quote verses so i did you wanted me to reply on the crucifixion so i did, all i am is asking can you at-least reply on the preservation issues before we go any further.

Here is the little list:

1. There is no proof that there was a Aramaic Dialect scripture written by the apostles of Jesus(p)
2. Translating Aramaic to Greek means you have to alter the meanings and use interpretations maybe it be scripture or orally.
3. The apostoles never wrote any of the scriptures or authorized any of it since they lived before the Gospels were written.
4. The gospels have a large time span before being canonized what gives the assumption that it can have been influenced and altered.
5. You yourself have accepted the fact that 5% has been corrupted so how do we know its only 5% and the number is not higher hence the long time span and different scribes, church fathers and maybe Paul.
6. If i was to use the Old-testament's reliablity we would go no-where since we do not know for example who wrote Hebrews and other scriptures.
7. In the more earlier scriptures of Mark Jesus(p) is more pictured as a messenger/man and the later the story evolves in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John as last.
8. There is no record of strong Oral tradition.
9. No records of the 1st century except of the Gospels.
10. No commentaries or context of that time.
11. We have nothing dating back to the apostels.
12. Curch Fathers and scribes influencing some of the verses.

I hope you can sincerely accept some of them or at-least make good arguments on how these are not issues.

 

[1robin]

The main thing we were discussing was the preservation not verses, internal passages or a crucifixion. You wanted me to quote verses so i did you wanted me to reply on the crucifixion so i did, all i am is asking can you at-least reply on the preservation issues before we go any further.

Here is the little list:

1. There is no proof that there was a Aramaic Dialect scripture written by the apostles of Jesus(p)
2. Translating Aramaic to Greek means you have to alter the meanings and use interpretations maybe it be scripture or orally.
3. The apostoles never wrote any of the scriptures or authorized any of it since they lived before the Gospels were written.
4. The gospels have a large time span before being canonized what gives the assumption that it can have been influenced and altered.
5. You yourself have accepted the fact that 5% has been corrupted so how do we know its only 5% and the number is not higher hence the long time span and different scribes, church fathers and maybe Paul.
6. If i was to use the Old-testament's reliablity we would go no-where since we do not know for example who wrote Hebrews and other scriptures.
7. In the more earlier scriptures of Mark Jesus(p) is more pictured as a messenger/man and the later the story evolves in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John as last.
8. There is no record of strong Oral tradition.
9. No records of the 1st century except of the Gospels.
10. No commentaries or context of that time.
11. We have nothing dating back to the apostels.
12. Curch Fathers and scribes influencing some of the verses.

I hope you can sincerely accept some of them or at-least make good arguments on how these are not issues.

Now this is more like it F0uad. You ask specific and relevant questions and you will get specific and relevant answers answers. This will take some time to research and to check out what I have in my head on these issues. While I am doing this could you please try and think of any last issues you have with the bible so we can get switched over to the Quran. I am sure you will be less frustrated and more confortable on your own turf so to speak. In the mean time I will be working on answering your claims above.

Selah

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I appreciate the info again but I am involved with so many threads and also work in a defence lab and post at the same time which leaves me short on research time. If you ask me about a concept in Christianity I will give you verses and commentaries, I would not tell you to read the bible. There are 272 pages at the site you linked to I can't comb through all that. Please copy and paste these teachings that only God could have produced and I will read and research them. Thank you.

Baha'i scriptures are revealed in 9 styles:

"Say: We have revealed Our verses in nine different modes. Each one of them bespeaketh the sovereignty of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. A single one of them sufficeth for a proof unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth; yet the people, for the most part, persist in their heedlessness. Should it be Our wish, We would reveal them in countless other modes."

Baha'u'llah, Surih of Heykal

A well-known Bahá'í scholar, Jinab-i-Fadil-i-Mazindarani, after careful study of the Writings, has enumerated these styles as follows:

1. Tablets with the tone of command and authority.
2. Those with the tone of servitude, meekness and supplication.
3. Writings dealing with interpretation of the old Scriptures, religious beliefs and doctrines of the past.
4. Writings in which laws and ordinances have been enjoined for this age and laws of the past abrogated.
5. Mystical Writings.
6. Tablets concerning matters of government and world order, and those addressed to the kings.
7. Tablets dealing with subjects of learning and knowledge, divine philosophy, mysteries of creation, medicine, alchemy, etc.
8. Tablets exhorting men to education, goodly character and divine virtues.
9. Tablets dealing with social teachings. (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 42)



So, maybe you pick a couple of subjects that you are interested from the 9 list, and I will try my best to find some quotes with regards to them.

For example, for world orders I found this:

"Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. "
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-117.html


"Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice. "
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-119.html

"O ye the elected representatives of the people in every land! Take ye counsel together, and let your concern be only for that which profiteth mankind, and bettereth the condition thereof, if ye be of them that scan heedfully. Regard the world as the human body which, though at its creation whole and perfect, hath been afflicted, through various causes, with grave disorders and maladies. Not for one day did it gain ease, nay its sickness waxed more severe, as it fell under the treatment of ignorant physicians, who gave full rein to their personal desires, and have erred grievously. And if, at one time, through the care of an able physician, a member of that body was healed, the rest remained afflicted as before. Thus informeth you the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. "

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-120.html



Or about creation:


"None can grasp the reality of the origin of creation save God, exalted be His glory, Whose knowledge embraceth all things both before and after they come into being. Creation hath neither beginning nor end, and none hath ever unravelled its mystery. Its knowledge hath ever been, and shall remain, hidden and preserved with those Who are the Repositories of divine knowledge"

"Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.
As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself."


"His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.
That which hath been in existence had existed before, but not in the form thou seest today. The world of existence came into being through the heat generated from the interaction between the active force and that which is its recipient. These two are the same, yet they are different. Thus doth the Great Announcement inform thee about this glorious structure. Such as communicate the generating influence and such as receive its impact are indeed created through the irresistible Word of God which is the Cause of the entire creation, while all else besides His Word are but the creatures and the effects thereof. Verily thy Lord is the Expounder, the All-Wise.
Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be."

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-10.html.utf8?query=creation&action=highlight#gr8

 

[F0uad]

Now this is more like it F0uad. You ask specific and relevant questions and you will get specific and relevant answers answers. This will take some time to research and to check out what I have in my head on these issues. While I am doing this could you please try and think of any last issues you have with the bible so we can get switched over to the Quran. I am sure you will be less frustrated and more confortable on your own turf so to speak. In the mean time I will be working on answering your claims above.

Selah

Thanks for finally understanding the questions(issues) i have because these are the first claims i made and i was trying to get our conversation focused on. There are many issues that i have with the Biblical teachings or at-least on how people interpret them maybe its better for me to address them after the Subject(preservation) because i don't want us to become confused or mix them. So i suggest after we both finish explaining and describing the problems we have with both preservations before we go into the internal passages, teachings and its interpretations.



Ps: Sorry for the English typing this one a cellphone

 

[1robin]

Baha'i scriptures are revealed in 9 styles:

"Say: We have revealed Our verses in nine different modes. Each one of them bespeaketh the sovereignty of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. A single one of them sufficeth for a proof unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth; yet the people, for the most part, persist in their heedlessness. Should it be Our wish, We would reveal them in countless other modes."

Baha'u'llah, Surih of Heykal

A well-known Bahá'í scholar, Jinab-i-Fadil-i-Mazindarani, after careful study of the Writings, has enumerated these styles as follows:

1. Tablets with the tone of command and authority.
2. Those with the tone of servitude, meekness and supplication.
3. Writings dealing with interpretation of the old Scriptures, religious beliefs and doctrines of the past.
4. Writings in which laws and ordinances have been enjoined for this age and laws of the past abrogated.
5. Mystical Writings.
6. Tablets concerning matters of government and world order, and those addressed to the kings.
7. Tablets dealing with subjects of learning and knowledge, divine philosophy, mysteries of creation, medicine, alchemy, etc.
8. Tablets exhorting men to education, goodly character and divine virtues.
9. Tablets dealing with social teachings. (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 42)



So, maybe you pick a couple of subjects that you are interested from the 9 list, and I will try my best to find some quotes with regards to them.

For example, for world orders I found this:



"Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 253-254

"O ye the elected representatives of the people in every land! Take ye counsel together, and let your concern be only for that which profiteth mankind, and bettereth the condition thereof, if ye be of them that scan heedfully. Regard the world as the human body which, though at its creation whole and perfect, hath been afflicted, through various causes, with grave disorders and maladies. Not for one day did it gain ease, nay its sickness waxed more severe, as it fell under the treatment of ignorant physicians, who gave full rein to their personal desires, and have erred grievously. And if, at one time, through the care of an able physician, a member of that body was healed, the rest remained afflicted as before. Thus informeth you the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 254-255



Or about creation:


"None can grasp the reality of the origin of creation save God, exalted be His glory, Whose knowledge embraceth all things both before and after they come into being. Creation hath neither beginning nor end, and none hath ever unravelled its mystery. Its knowledge hath ever been, and shall remain, hidden and preserved with those Who are the Repositories of divine knowledge"

"Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.
As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself."


"His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.
That which hath been in existence had existed before, but not in the form thou seest today. The world of existence came into being through the heat generated from the interaction between the active force and that which is its recipient. These two are the same, yet they are different. Thus doth the Great Announcement inform thee about this glorious structure. Such as communicate the generating influence and such as receive its impact are indeed created through the irresistible Word of God which is the Cause of the entire creation, while all else besides His Word are but the creatures and the effects thereof. Verily thy Lord is the Expounder, the All-Wise.
Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152

Once again I appreciate the effort but there is not one example in the things you posted that show a devine origin of these writeings. A mere assertion is not a proof.

Amazingly I went to one of the sites and the first thing I saw was this:
"Empedocles, who distinguished himself in philosophy, was a contemporary of David, while Pythagoras lived in the days of Solomon, son of David, and acquired Wisdom from the treasury of prophethood. It is he who claimed to have heard the whispering sound of the heavens and to have attained the station of the angels. In truth thy Lord will clearly set forth all things, if He pleaseth. Verily, He is the Wise, the All-Pervading. " Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152
There is nothing amazing or devine about this, it is simply wrong:

David
His life is conventionally dated to c. 1040–970 BC, his reign over Judah c. 1010–1003 BC, and his reign over the United Kingdom of Israel c. 1003–970 BC.
David - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empidocles lived around 500BCE...and doubt this was his original intent from reading and contemplating remaining fragments of his poems.
Christian magic

Solomon reigned from 971-932 BC (plus or minus one year).
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_King_Solomon_start_his_rule#ixzz1wea82B4F

Now if you claim devine revelation then why can't your God even get these basic hitorical facts correct? Since this is the first thing I saw then the whole is bound to be riddled with errors. Contrast that with the amazing accuracy of the bible and you will see why I am confused by faith in this new cult like belief.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Now if you claim devine revelation then why can't your God even get these basic hitorical facts correct? Since this is the first thing I saw then the whole is bound to be riddled with errors. Contrast that with the amazing accuracy of the bible and you will see why I am confused by faith in this new cult like belief.

You are saying that Empedocles did not live in the same years as David, while Baha'u'llah says Empedocles was a contemporary of David.

My Response:

The Tablet originally revealed in Arabic. The literal translation is “the period of David”.
Living in the same "Age" or “Period” does not necessary mean, living in the same years as if they were alive at the same time. I don’t think this should be interpreted literally.
So, we should see the meaning within the context.
So, the time of David, in that context can be interpreted, as the period, that David's Spiritual teachings were influential.

The way I understand that, Empedocles was inspired by spiritual teachings of David, as he lived in a period, where and when the spiritual teachings of David were known and influential. Thus Baha’u’llah revealed Empedocles was in the period of David.

Somewhere else in Baha’i Scriptures Abdulbaha said:

“It is furthermore a matter of record in numerous historical works that the philosophers of Greece such as Pythagoras, acquired the major part of their philosophy, both divine and material, from the disciples of Solomon. And Socrates after having eagerly journeyed to meet with some of Israel's most illustrious scholars and divines, on his return to Greece established the concept of the oneness of God and the continuing life of the human soul after it has put off its elemental dust”

~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization


It is also note-worthy that in Baha’i Scriptures, an Age is defined as the period between the manifestations of two divine revelations. So, all people living between the appearance of two Manifestations, can be said, are in the same Age.

You would also see that in many instances, in Bible, that a period should not be interpreted literally. For example, the creation story in 6 days, which is very arguable from a scientific and logical perspective that a day is really meant 24 hours within that context.

 

[1robin]

You are saying that Empedocles did not live in the same years as David, while Baha'u'llah says Empedocles was a contemporary of David.

My Response:

The Tablet originally revealed in Arabic. The literal translation is “the period of David”.
Living in the same "Age" or “Period” does not necessary mean, living in the same years as if they were alive at the same time. I don’t think this should be interpreted literally.
So, we should see the meaning within the context.
So, the time of David, in that context can be interpreted, as the period, that David's Spiritual teachings were influential.

The way I understand that, Empedocles was inspired by spiritual teachings of David, as he lived in a period, where and when the spiritual teachings of David were known and influential. Thus Baha’u’llah revealed Empedocles was in the period of David.

Somewhere else in Baha’i Scriptures Abdulbaha said:

“It is furthermore a matter of record in numerous historical works that the philosophers of Greece such as Pythagoras, acquired the major part of their philosophy, both divine and material, from the disciples of Solomon. And Socrates after having eagerly journeyed to meet with some of Israel's most illustrious scholars and divines, on his return to Greece established the concept of the oneness of God and the continuing life of the human soul after it has put off its elemental dust”

~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization


It is also note-worthy that in Baha’i Scriptures, an Age is defined as the period between the manifestations of two divine revelations. So, all people living between the appearance of two Manifestations, can be said, are in the same Age.

You would also see that in many instances, in Bible, that a period should not be interpreted literally. For example, the creation story in 6 days, which is very arguable from a scientific and logical perspective that a day is really meant 24 hours within that context.

Well the bibles different meanings for day or "yom" are easily destinguished by the presence of modifiers or their abscence. If the bible says yom with the (1st) added as a modifier then it is literally a day. I will accept that when Baha i says age it means a long span of time. However that was not the word used in those verses. One said lived in the same days and the other said a contemporary of. Since they chose these words instead of age then I am unconvinced your theory is correct.

"Empedocles, who distinguished himself in philosophy, was a contemporary of David, while Pythagoras lived in the days of Solomon, son of David, and acquired Wisdom from the treasury of prophethood. It is he who claimed to have heard the whispering sound of the heavens and to have attained the station of the angels. In truth thy Lord will clearly set forth all things, if He pleaseth. Verily, He is the Wise, the All-Pervading. " Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152


I found another questionable teaching.
The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 281

This seems to suggest that he thought the universe and the sun were eternal. By the laws of therodynamics the universe would have ran down until all matter and heat were distributed evenly long before now. Also time cannot be infinate because there is no way to cross an infinate stretch of anything includeing time, so we could have never got to now. It is obvious the sun can't be eternal it will one day use up it's fuel and die.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well the bibles different meanings for day or "yom" are easily destinguished by the presence of modifiers or their abscence. If the bible says yom with the (1st) added as a modifier then it is literally a day. I will accept that when Baha i says age it means a long span of time. However that was not the word used in those verses. One said lived in the same days and the other said a contemporary of. Since they chose these words instead of age then I am unconvinced your theory is correct.

"Empedocles, who distinguished himself in philosophy, was a contemporary of David, while Pythagoras lived in the days of Solomon, son of David, and acquired Wisdom from the treasury of prophethood. It is he who claimed to have heard the whispering sound of the heavens and to have attained the station of the angels. In truth thy Lord will clearly set forth all things, if He pleaseth. Verily, He is the Wise, the All-Pervading. " Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152


I found another questionable teaching.
The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 281

This seems to suggest that he thought the universe and the sun were eternal. By the laws of therodynamics the universe would have ran down until all matter and heat were distributed evenly long before now. Also time cannot be infinate because there is no way to cross an infinate stretch of anything includeing time, so we could have never got to now. It is obvious the sun can't be eternal it will one day use up it's fuel and die.

I looked up the actuall Arabic Tablet. In both cases, Baha'u'llah uses exactly the same word for it, "zaman", which literally means "time" or "period" . So, the translator, when he put this writing in english, perhaps to make it in a good english style, used 2 different terms, "contemporary" and "in days of". But I would be more concerned with the message that Baha'u'llah is giving.

Also, It doesn't seem that there is really a very accurate history, regarding exactly, when "Empedocles" and "David" lived. But, I am assuming that what the historian are saying is right.



Regarding, the sun, being there forever, I don't think, Abdulbaha is saying, that the sun always existed and will exist, but He is saying, it is the chracteristic of the sun that manifests light, and once it doesn't give light anymore, it is not the sun anymore; "without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness"


so, same goes with God. His name is creator, so, He must have had a creation always. Without any creation, he couldn't be called creater.

 

[BruceDLimber]

What I was asking is there anything in the books or the extremely short history of the religion that would suggest it's devine [sic] origin?

Yes,there are, but due to the rules here we're not allowed to post them.

I suggest you ask on one of the Baha'i discussion forums (you can find me on Planet Baha'i, for example--no, I won't post a link here, but you should be able to locate it if you're interested) where we can post the details of this answer.

There are indeed a number of such indications!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[FearGod]

I looked up the actuall Arabic Tablet. In both cases, Baha'u'llah uses exactly the same word for it, "zaman", which literally means "time" or "period" . So, the translator, when he put this writing in english, perhaps to make it in a good english style, used 2 different terms, "contemporary" and "in days of". But I would be more concerned with the message that Baha'u'llah is giving.

Also, It doesn't seem that there is really a very accurate history, regarding exactly, when "Empedocles" and "David" lived. But, I am assuming that what the historian are saying is right.



Regarding, the sun, being there forever, I don't think, Abdulbaha is saying, that the sun always existed and will exist, but He is saying, it is the chracteristic of the sun that manifests light, and once it doesn't give light anymore, it is not the sun anymore; "without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness"


so, same goes with God. His name is creator, so, He must have had a creation always. Without any creation, he couldn't be called creater.

I am Alpha and Omega”; for He is the beginning and the end of Bounty. The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness.

Bahaullah compared god to the sun that it never die since we can see it's rays,
What a funny scientific mistake,all of us know now that the sun will die,but
Bahaullah didn't know this fact,he thought that the sun will be shining for ever.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am Alpha and Omega”; for He is the beginning and the end of Bounty. The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness.

Bahaullah compared god to the sun that it never die since we can see it's rays,
What a funny scientific mistake,all of us know now that the sun will die,but
Bahaullah didn't know this fact,he thought that the sun will be shining for ever.

Instead of playing with words, can you bring equivalent of these verses from Quran:

"From the beginning that hath no beginning I have proclaimed, from the realm of eternity, that I am God, none other God is there save Me, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting; and unto the end that hath no end I shall proclaim, amidst the kingdom of names, that I am God, none other God is there beside Me, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: Lordship is My Name, whereof I have created manifestations in the world of being, while We Ourself remain sanctified above them, would ye but ponder this truth. And Godhead is My Name, where of We have created exponents whose power shall encompass the people of the earth and make them true worshippers of God, could ye but recognize it. Thus should ye regard all Our Names, if ye be endued with insight. "

Surih of Temple, Baha'u'llah


"Say: It is in Our power, should We wish it, to cause all created things to expire in an instant, and, with the next, to endue them again with life. The knowledge thereof, however, is with God alone, the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendour, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages. This, in truth, is a matter simple of accomplishment. Such have been the evidences of My power from the beginning that hath no beginning until the end that hath no end. My creatures, however, have been oblivious of My power, have repudiated My sovereignty, and contended with Mine own Self, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. "

Surih of Temple, Baha'u'llah

 

[FearGod]

Instead of playing with words, can you bring equivalent of these verses from Quran:

"From the beginning that hath no beginning I have proclaimed, from the realm of eternity, that I am God, none other God is there save Me, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting; and unto the end that hath no end I shall proclaim, amidst the kingdom of names, that I am God, none other God is there beside Me, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: Lordship is My Name, whereof I have created manifestations in the world of being, while We Ourself remain sanctified above them, would ye but ponder this truth. And Godhead is My Name, where of We have created exponents whose power shall encompass the people of the earth and make them true worshippers of God, could ye but recognize it. Thus should ye regard all Our Names, if ye be endued with insight. "

Surih of Temple, Baha'u'llah


"Say: It is in Our power, should We wish it, to cause all created things to expire in an instant, and, with the next, to endue them again with life. The knowledge thereof, however, is with God alone, the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendour, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages. This, in truth, is a matter simple of accomplishment. Such have been the evidences of My power from the beginning that hath no beginning until the end that hath no end. My creatures, however, have been oblivious of My power, have repudiated My sovereignty, and contended with Mine own Self, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. "

Surih of Temple, Baha'u'llah

What is significant in such statements,what miracle on them that we can't find a similarity
in the quran or bible,could you explain,because i aint able to see any thing special about such statements

 

[1robin]

Yes,there are, but due to the rules here we're not allowed to post them.

I suggest you ask on one of the Baha'i discussion forums (you can find me on Planet Baha'i, for example--no, I won't post a link here, but you should be able to locate it if you're interested) where we can post the details of this answer.

There are indeed a number of such indications!

Peace,

Bruce

What rules are you referring to? I am unaware of any rules prohibiting you from posting your own scripture, of course you may know more about these rules than I do. Is this planet Baha i a different site all together.

 

[waitasec]

Koran v. Bible

this is like saying, which blind person will reach the finish line first.

 

[F0uad]

Can this thread stay on topic please, the Bahai scriptures are not the Quran nor the Bible maybe a mixture of them both but the title clearly says One versus One.

 

[1robin]

Here is the little list:

F0uad I wil probably answer these a few at a time for length and time sake.

1. There is no proof that there was a Aramaic Dialect scripture written by the apostles of Jesus(p)

First of all there is no reason to think that they were or should have been written in Aramaic. Since the gospels were written for Jews as well as the gentiles the most common and universal language was Greek. It also was a very capable and descriptive language. The only issue with this is if you are asserting that the apostles could not speak Greek. This was once thought to be the case but archeological evidence is suggesting otherwise. Both Paul and Luke were from areas that spoke Greek already and so they are not an issue. The rest could have easily spoken Greek or dictated to scribes who did. See below:

Today, however, new archaeological discoveries have undermined the speculations of scholars and brought into clear light the fact that Greek was well known among the Jews, especially the priesthood, leadership class, and the merchant class. In particular, Greek was well understood in "Galilee of the Gentiles," the region where Jesus Christ of Nazareth was raised, and grew up as a young lad. There is no doubt, therefore, that Jesus and the original apostles all spoke Greek -- commonly, as a "second language."
Why the New Testament was Written in Greek, Not Hebrew
This site contains all the info you could possibly want concerning whether the apostles likely spoke Greek. Outside of this issue there isn't any problem associated with the Greek being the original language used for the gospels.

2. Translating Aramaic to Greek means you have to alter the meanings and use interpretations maybe it be scripture or orally.

The Gospels were written in Greek originally and so no translation was necessary.
The majority view is that all of the books that would eventually form the New Testament were written in Koine Greek.[66][
New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They do contain a few Hebrew statements, mostly when they were quoteing old testament verses but that is all and wouldn't be an issue. An example would be what Jesus said on the cross "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46, Psalm 22:1)Forsaken: What Did Jesus Mean?
This was a quote from psalms and was in Hebrew, but 99% of the new testament was in greek.

3. The apostoles never wrote any of the scriptures or authorized any of it since they lived before the Gospels were written.

There are many reasons to believe the Gospels were written much earlier than you think. This is a great site that explains why: When were the gospels written and by whom?|What are the dates and authors of the gospels? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Jesuit Father Jose O'Callaghan, studying fragments of the Gospel of Mark and using paleographic means, dated them at 50, again indicating an eyewitness author. Finally, Episcopalian Bishop John Robinson also posited from his research that all four Gospels were written between 40 and 65, with John's being possibly the earliest. This new research is not only questioning some of the modern scholarship but also supporting the traditional authorship.
Fr. William Saunders


Dating the Gospels: When were they written ?

• The standard scholarly dating, even in very liberal circles (i.e., those that reject Christianity) is:
  • Mark was written around 70 AD
  • Matthew and Luke were written around 80 AD
  • John was written around 90 AD
• There are evidence that all gospels were written before 70 AD, but even with such a liberal dating, all gospels are wriiten within the lifetime of various EYEWITTNESSES of the life of Jesus INCLUDING hostile ones
• This fact is important - human nature being what it is - if false teaching about Jesus were going around (e.g., that Jesus' resurection was false), these hostile witnesses would make sure any false teaching were corrected

Who wrote the Gospels and When are the Gospels written
This is a great site with much info. This site also states that Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260 - c. 340) is the first "Church Historian" and he states emphatically that the writers of the Gospels were written by the apsotles. Now he being the first church historian is far more qualified to know this than any modern scholar. To be perfectly candid and honest even though it is almost certain that the apostles wrote the Gospels, it is not a known fact at least for two of them and probably will never be. However the information in the gospels is perfectly consistent with the complete biblical narrative even if the author is unknown (they are without doubt from eye witnesses of Christ). Even if we found out that a certain part or book of the bible was written by someone other than the apostle who's name it was called after, even if that part or book was removed the bible would suffer no significant doctrine loss only a loss of detail. In summary while it is IMO 90% sure that the apostles wrote the gospels and wrote them prior to 70AD this claim is not essential to maintain biblical reliability. If four sports writers covered a football game and had all mentioned some facts (like who won) but they each individually record some independant details. Lets say later that IF one of them was found to be written by someone else and so was discarded. Since we still have three we can still say for sure there was a game, who won the game, and any details that the three left recorded. I am certainly nor saying any gospel was not written by the apostles just pointing out that the major facts like the crucifixion and ressurection etc... would still have three witnesses even IF there was a authorship problem with one. I will continue addressing your other 9 points soon.

 

[1robin]

this is like saying, which blind person will reach the finish line first.

These two books have had more of an impact on humanty than any other books in human history. But I am sure you are right. Christ has contributed more to morality, meaning, and purpose than the contrabutions of all the philosophers in history put together, but I am sure you know the real truth. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have contributed more to science than any other group and maybe all other groups in the history of man, but you are apparently above such mundain things.