Can someone convert to an ethnicity?

[painted wolf]

All but new Americans are identifiably "American" This is ethnicity.

I saw a report this week that Non-white births last year were a majority in the USA. and a majority of those are mixed race. it will not be long before the typical USA person will be identified in the world as mixed race, as is south America now. Many will not know their true ancestry.

Despite the cultural differences among several groups in America?
Do Jewish Americans stop being ethnically Jewish and switch to being ethnically American?
How about Native Americans, are the Lakota no longer their own ethnic group?

wa:do

 

[bobhikes]

All but new Americans are identifiably "American" This is ethnicity.
I saw a report this week that Non-white births last year were a majority in the USA. and a majority of those are mixed race. it will not be long before the typical USA person will be identified in the world as mixed race, as is south America now. Many will not know their true ancestry.

I'm an american and I know my ancestry.
My Mother's father family comes from Holland but has lived in America since before the revolutionary war.

My Mother's Mother's family comes from Ireland 2 generations before her.

My Dad's Father comes from Lituainia 2 generations before him.

My Dad's Mother Identifies herself as French Canadian and can trace ancestry to the French Indian war with america. I would assume her ancestry leads back to France but have no proof.

What is my ethnicity.
Ethnicity is important to those that live in the area still but not important once they leave to another area.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Despite the cultural differences among several groups in America?
Do Jewish Americans stop being ethnically Jewish and switch to being ethnically American?
How about Native Americans, are the Lakota no longer their own ethnic group?

wa:do

Ethnicity has nothing to do with racial background.

Americans visiting Europe stand out as Americans, of whatever racial background.
People might think of them selves as Spanish Americans or whatever, but that is not identifiable to a European.

Of course America is large enough to have areas of predominately differing cultures, but they all are American.

I suspect that there are some near pure bloods of many races in the USA, this is of coure important to themselves. But any pond has water of different purity in it. But it is all pond water.

 

[painted wolf]

Ethnicity has nothing to do with racial background.

Americans visiting Europe stand out as Americans, of whatever racial background.
People might think of them selves as Spanish Americans or whatever, but that is not identifiable to a European.

Of course America is large enough to have areas of predominately differing cultures, but they all are American.

I suspect that there are some near pure bloods of many races in the USA, this is of coure important to themselves. But any pond has water of different purity in it. But it is all pond water.

I'm not talking about race.... Lakota and Cherokee are different ethnic groups, same haplogroup... do they suddenly stop being Lakota and Cherokee and simply become "American"? What if they are mixed race but grew up culturally Lakota?

Ethnicity is also about culture, language and other factors.

The Roma don't suddenly stop being ethnically Roma just because they live in England vs. France vs. Hungary. Nor do Jews stop being ethnically Jewish outside of Israel.

wa:do

 

[bobhikes]

I'm not talking about race.... Lakota and Cherokee are different ethnic groups, same haplogroup... do they suddenly stop being Lakota and Cherokee and simply become "American"? What if they are mixed race but grew up culturally Lakota?

Ethnicity is also about culture, language and other factors.

The Roma don't suddenly stop being ethnically Roma just because they live in England vs. France vs. Hungary. Nor do Jews stop being ethnically Jewish outside of Israel.

wa:do

I would disagree, people are no longer ethnically connected when they leave the area. Like you said Ethnicity is about culture, language, and other factors. The culture, language and other factors all change when they go to another area.

They are not the ethnicity of the other area but also no longer there own ethnicity.

 

[painted wolf]

I would disagree, people are no longer ethnically connected when they leave the area. Like you said Ethnicity is about culture, language, and other factors. The culture, language and other factors all change when they go to another area.

They are not the ethnicity of the other area but also no longer there own ethnicity.

Really? So I can't still speak Cherokee, celebrate Cherokee holidays, eat Cherokee foods and such if I'm not in North Carolina? Man, the Western Band of the Cherokee nation is going to be ******. Not to mention all the other "relocated" Native American Nations.

The Jews and the Roma are no longer ethnic groups because they don't all live in their homelands? At what point did the Jews stop being ethnically jewish? Was it after the first diaspora or the second... or do the ones living in Israel today get to be ethnic again? What about the Roma, who have a similar history?

wa:do

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I'm not talking about race.... Lakota and Cherokee are different ethnic groups, same haplogroup... do they suddenly stop being Lakota and Cherokee and simply become "American"? What if they are mixed race but grew up culturally Lakota?

Ethnicity is also about culture, language and other factors.

The Roma don't suddenly stop being ethnically Roma just because they live in England vs. France vs. Hungary. Nor do Jews stop being ethnically Jewish outside of Israel.

wa:do

There is no problem people trying to preserve their forebears ethnic traditions and language. They can be a genuine sub culture, even with a racial element to it.
However this is becoming increasingly difficult in the modern world and it would be a sad loss to see it totally absorbed into the greater nation.

Most ethnic groups within any nation are far smaller to day than even 50 years ago. and "pure bloods" increasingly difficult to identify. In England only DNA profiling gives any idea of our true roots. few indeed can trace back further than 1000 years. and none will be pure blood of any race.

In my life time most English Dialects have been totally lost, with only a suggestion of their past in regional accents.
When I met my late wife 60 years ago. I could hardly make out what her father was saying, as he spoke almost pure Kentish. no one uses that dialect today.

 

[painted wolf]

There is no problem people trying to preserve their forebears ethnic traditions and language. They can be a genuine sub culture, even with a racial element to it.
However this is becoming increasingly difficult in the modern world and it would be a sad loss to see it totally absorbed into the greater nation.

Most ethnic groups within any nation are far smaller to day than even 50 years ago. and "pure bloods" increasingly difficult to identify. In England only DNA profiling gives any idea of our true roots. few indeed can trace back further than 1000 years. and none will be pure blood of any race.

In my life time most English Dialects have been totally lost, with only a suggestion of their past in regional accents.
When I met my late wife 60 years ago. I could hardly make out what her father was saying, as he spoke almost pure Kentish. no one uses that dialect today.

So you are saying that you need to be "pure blood" to be an ethnic group?

At what point do you stop being part of the ethnic group? Half, quarter... Is it only defined by genetics? What ethnic group do people of mixed heritage belong to? None or their own new one?

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

What about ethnic groups that cross artificial boundries... The Lakota on the American side of the border suddenly stopped being Lakota and became American and the ones on the Canadian side suddenly became Canadian.
Was that before they got the right to vote or after?

wa:do

 

[gnomon]

The debacle of Elizabeth Warren's prior claims highlights some of the absurdities in claims of heritage and identity.

Personally, I just rely on what a person tells me they are and my observations to if they actually are partaking in what defines that identity. Tend not to dwell on it too much.

Can someone change their identity? I think so. In a nation with so many more people born to others from mixed backgrounds they are treated to a number of different views which may lead to an early identity evolving to another.

 

[bobhikes]

Really? So I can't still speak Cherokee, celebrate Cherokee holidays, eat Cherokee foods and such if I'm not in North Carolina? Man, the Western Band of the Cherokee nation is going to be ******. Not to mention all the other "relocated" Native American Nations.

The Jews and the Roma are no longer ethnic groups because they don't all live in their homelands? At what point did the Jews stop being ethnically jewish? Was it after the first diaspora or the second... or do the ones living in Israel today get to be ethnic again? What about the Roma, who have a similar history?

wa:do

Yes because that is not all you do. You are tied to your heritage but not your ethnicity. Everything around you is different you have to make an effort to practice your ethnicity. In North Carolina or Jews not in Israel are losing there ethnicity. They are not getting the same things, doing the same things in this new world that they would do in the old. They can't its not possible. They are not losing their Heritage just there ethnicity and if they stay it accelerates and the next generation starts adapting to the new ethnicity of the area.

My wife is an example of a dislocated person as well as her siblings. Yes they are El Salvadorian but no they are not ethnically the same any more. They are more american than El Salvadorian. The texas group is different than the North eastern group as well. The Canadian is different as well. Still very much tied to El Salvador but still different more adapted to there new area.

I think if you look at your life in North Carolina vs your life in the Cherokee nation you would see you are a North Carolina resident that happens to have a strong Cherokee heritage.

But I could be wrong

 

[painted wolf]

Yes because that is not all you do. You are tied to your heritage but not your ethnicity. Everything around you is different you have to make an effort to practice your ethnicity. In North Carolina or Jews not in Israel are losing there ethnicity. They are not getting the same things, doing the same things in this new world that they would do in the old. They can't its not possible. They are not losing their Heritage just there ethnicity and if they stay it accelerates and the next generation starts adapting to the new ethnicity of the area.

So then as soon as the Jews were forced out of Israel they stopped being ethnically Jewish... but once they moved back, centuries later they were again?

I'm just trying to understand how this works.

My wife is an example of a dislocated person as well as her siblings. Yes they are El Salvadorian but no they are not ethnically the same any more. They are more american than El Salvadorian. The texas group is different than the North eastern group as well. The Canadian is different as well. Still very much tied to El Salvador but still different more adapted to there new area.

And I'm not saying that people who are "ethnically" part of a group have to be "culturally" part of the group.

I'm wondering where the line between culture and genetics is when we define ethnicity.

For example... a foreign exchange student... does a Chinese exchange student suddenly become ethnically "American" and not longer ethnically "Han" just because they have lived here a couple of years?

I think if you look at your life in North Carolina vs your life in the Cherokee nation you would see you are a North Carolina resident that happens to have a strong Cherokee heritage.
But I could be wrong

Well, the Cherokee Nation is in North Carolina (as well as Georgia and Oklahoma) and the people living in the Nations tribal lands would probably see themselves as Cherokee that happen to live in North Carolina. (but I could be wrong, I certainly can't speak for everyone who is Cherokee)
Remember that Tribal Nations are sovereign governments within the USA... not just enclaves of people who happen to be related.

wa:do

 

[bobhikes]

So then as soon as the Jews were forced out of Israel they stopped being ethnically Jewish... but once they moved back, centuries later they were again?

I'm just trying to understand how this works.

And I'm not saying that people who are "ethnically" part of a group have to be "culturally" part of the group.

I'm wondering where the line between culture and genetics is when we define ethnicity.

For example... a foreign exchange student... does a Chinese exchange student suddenly become ethnically "American" and not longer ethnically "Han" just because they have lived here a couple of years?


Well, the Cherokee Nation is in North Carolina (as well as Georgia and Oklahoma) and the people living in the Nations tribal lands would probably see themselves as Cherokee that happen to live in North Carolina. (but I could be wrong, I certainly can't speak for everyone who is Cherokee)
Remember that Tribal Nations are sovereign governments within the USA... not just enclaves of people who happen to be related.

wa:do

Its not an instant tranformation it takes years and America is not technically and ethnicity. For me Culture is what ethnicity is about.

What we have is a different definition of what an ethnic group is. For me it is defined by:

Customs = partly tranferable but some customs can not be practiced away from the location.

Language = partly transferable but you need to be able to communicate in the new area so you have to adapt a new language.

Foods = partly transferable but not all foods are available in your new location.

Climate = depends where you move, if you come from the dessert and move to the rain forest you will not be the same.

Locale = for example in el salvador to go to the stores you need to pack up and go by bus to another town. There's no local CVS, Mc Donalds. Vegtables are sold in the town center once a week. Etc.

In my opinion ethnically you can not be the same away from the area, when you go back you stand out as different eventually you can blend back in but there is a time laspe. In the same method I can also blend in ethnically but it will take me longer.

You can never lose the Heritage and I can never gain the heritage of another people.

 

[Levite]

It might be worth noting that there have been a couple of books (most notably The Jew In The Lotus, by Rodger Kamenetz) that describe the meetings that have taken place between the Dalai Lama and his closest advisors with representatives of Jews from different movements and places. The topic of the meetings were the interest of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government in exile in learning from the success of the Jewish People in preserving their culture and tradition while in exile from their homeland.

So that would seem to indicate that some people don't believe that ethnicity (in its cultural sense, not its genetic sense) is absolutely tied to a particular place....

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So you are saying that you need to be "pure blood" to be an ethnic group?

At what point do you stop being part of the ethnic group? Half, quarter... Is it only defined by genetics? What ethnic group do people of mixed heritage belong to? None or their own new one?

wa:do

not at all ... there are very few pure bloods still around in any group.

I myself am an English Irish, German Jewish and Scottish mix, if you met me you would be in no doubt I was ethnically English. genetically, English would be a minority in me. I doubt any one is genetically English, because there never has been a pure English race.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

It might be worth noting that there have been a couple of books (most notably The Jew In The Lotus, by Rodger Kamenetz) that describe the meetings that have taken place between the Dalai Lama and his closest advisors with representatives of Jews from different movements and places. The topic of the meetings were the interest of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government in exile in learning from the success of the Jewish People in preserving their culture and tradition while in exile from their homeland.

So that would seem to indicate that some people don't believe that ethnicity (in its cultural sense, not its genetic sense) is absolutely tied to a particular place....

What type of common tradition between Jews of Yemen with their Qat in their mouths and Beber Jews with their Saksaki food and Flasha Jews with their jungle drums and Indian Jews with their Lungi dress and Russian with their Vodka ??
Different peoples in race , culture and language but they share on religion "Judaism "and this apply on Christians and Muslims plus Buhddists and other religions .
I can not understand the term Homeland as you are repeating it in every post ? Do you mean they were from one tribe or forefather and spread all over the world ?

 

[Caladan]

What type of common tradition between Jews of Yemen with their Qat in their mouths and Beber Jews with their Saksaki food and Flasha Jews with their jungle drums and Indian Jews with their Lungi dress and Russian with their Vodka ??
Different peoples in race , culture and language but they share on religion "Judaism "and this apply on Christians and Muslims plus Buhddists and other religions .
I can not understand the term Homeland as you are repeating it in every post ? Do you mean they were from one tribe or forefather and spread all over the world ?

Of course Jews from different parts of the world have many differences, but they also share qualities, including linguistic and cultural ones which are unique to them. Ethnicity and culture are fluid things, far from the way you present it.
Jews are very dynamic when it comes to culture and ethnicity, they are very diverse within their collective group, but they also share distinct ethnic traits, some would say even genetic.
ethnicity is 'measured' by cultural factors such as language, or even religion.
Contrary to what you try to say here, ethnicity is not simply 'race'.
Jews in Israel come from various parts of the world, but they all speak Hebrew, share Jewish traditions, heritage, ideologies. Furthermore, there is a generation of Israelis today which is a mix of Jews from different parts of the world, mostly Europe and the Middle East, but they still obviously share Israeli-Jewish culture, in fact this is their native identity.

 

[Tarheeler]

I think it is also important to keep in mind that we can belong to multiple ethnic groups.

I can identify as both an American and as a Jew.
My great-grandmother was both a Cherokee and an American.
My grandfather was both an Irishman and an American.

 

[Broken Smoke]

This explains it pretty well actually.

Thoughts from Polly's Granddaughter: Stealing the Identity of Indians

 

[painted wolf]

A very valid point Broken Smoke... cultural appropriation is a serious issue, especially for First Nations/Native Americans who are trying to not only keep their identities alive but fight stereotypes about who and what they are.

Yet, for all of history... people have been moving from Tribe to tribe, nation to nation and Blacks and Whites were commonly integrated into the native cultures that surrounded them.

It was so bad that laws had to passed and guards posted to keep colonists from abandoning the European way of life. Even Benjamin Franklin wrote about the "problem".

wa:do