ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
So you're saying that because we can't define the term "atheist" without referencing the term "God", this proves...?
No, I can't see it. I my mind functions too well to see your point here.
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Define an atheist ?
- Thread starter chinu
- Start date
No, I can't see it. I my mind functions too well to see your point here.
If you want to understand this world, and man's spirit within the world, and the nature and value of religion within man, and how the world is a prison if there is no True Religion, and that without religion man becomes the most miserable of creatures, and that it is O God! and, There is no god but God that solve this world's talisman and deliver the human spirit from darkness, then listen to and consider this comparison:
Long ago, two brothers set off on a long journey. They continued on their way until the road forked. At the fork they saw a serious-looking man and asked him: "Which road is good?" He told them: "On the road to the right one is compelled to comply with the law and order, but within that hardship is security and happiness. However, on the left-hand road there is freedom and no restraint, but within its freedom lies danger and wretchedness. Now, the choice is yours!"
After listening to this, saying, I place my trust in God,3 the brother with a good character took the right road and conformed to the order and regulations. The other brother, who was immoral and a layabout, chose the road to the left just for the lack of restraint. With our imaginations, we shall follow this man in his situation, which was apparently easy but in reality burdensome.
Thus, this man went up hill and down dale until he found himself in a desolate wilderness. He suddenly heard a terrifying sound and saw that a great lion had come out of the forest and was about to attack him. He fled. He came across a waterless well sixty metres deep, and in his fear jumped into it. He fell half-way down it where his hands met a tree. He clung on to it. The tree, which was growing out of the walls of the well, had two roots. Two rats, one white and one black, were attacking and gnawing through them. He looked up and saw that the lion was waiting at the top of the well like a sentry. He looked down and saw a ghastly dragon. It raised its head and drew it close to his foot thirty metres above. Its mouth was as big as the mouth of the well. Then he looked at the well's walls and saw that stinging, poisonous vermin had gathered round him. He looked up at the mouth of the well and saw a fig-tree. But it was not an ordinary tree, it bore the fruit of many different trees, from walnuts to pomegranates.
Thus, through his lack of thought and foolishness, the man did not understand that this was not just some ordinary matter, these things were not here by chance, and that there were mysterious secrets concealed in these strange beings. And he did not grasp that there was someone very powerful directing them. Now, although his heart, spirit, and mind were secretly weeping and wailing at this grievous situation, his evil-commanding soul pretended that it was nothing; it closed its ears to the weeping of his heart and spirit, and deceiving itself, started to eat the tree's fruit as though it was in a garden. But some of the fruit were poisonous and harmful. Almighty God says in a Divine Hadith: "I am according to how my servants think of Me."
Thus, through his foolishness and lack of understanding, this unhappy man thought what he saw to be ordinary and the actual truth. And so that is the way he was treated, and is treated, and will be treated. He neither dies so that he is saved from it, nor does he live - he is in such torment. And so, we shall leave this ill-omened man in his torment and return, so that we may consider the situation of the other brother.
This fortunate and intelligent person went on his way, but he suffered no distress like his brother. For, due to his fine morals, he thought of good things, and imagined good things. Everything was friendly and familiar to him. And he did not suffer any difficulty and hardship like his brother, for he knew the order and followed it. He found it easy. He went on his way freely and in peace and security. Then he came across a garden in which were both lovely flowers and fruits, and, since it was not looked after, rotting and filthy things. His brother had also entered such a garden, but he had noticed and occupied himself with the filthy things and they had turned his stomach, so he had left it and moved on without being able to rest at all. But this man acted according to the rule, 'look on the good side of everything', and had paid no attention to the rotting things. He had benefited a lot from the good things, and taking a good rest, he had left and gone on his way.
Later, also like the first brother, he had entered a vast desert, and had suddenly heard the roar of a lion which was attacking him. He was frightened, but not as much as his brother. For, because of his good thoughts and positive attitude, he thought to himself: "This desert has a ruler, and it is possible that this lion is a servant under the ruler's command," and found consolation. But he still fled until he came across an empty well sixty metres deep. He threw himself into it. Like his brother, his hand clasped a tree half-way down and he remained suspended in the air. He looked and saw two animals gnawing through the tree's two roots. He looked up and saw the lion, and looked down and saw the dragon. Just like his brother he was seeing a most strange situation. He was terrified like him, but his terror was a thousand times less than his brother's. For his good morals had given him good thoughts, and good thoughts show the good side of everything. So, because of this, he thought like this:
"These strange happenings are connected to someone. Also it seems that they are acting in accordance with a command. In which case, these matters contain a talisman. Yes, they are turning at the command of a hidden ruler. Therefore, I am not alone; the hidden ruler is watching me, he is testing me, he is impelling me somewhere for some purpose, and inviting me there. A curiosity arising from this pleasant fear and these agreeable thoughts prompt me to say: I wonder who it is that is testing me, wants to make himself known, and is impelling me for some purpose on this strange road."
Then, love for the owner of the talisman arose out of the desire to know him, and from that love arose the desire to solve the talisman. And from that desire arose the will to acquire good qualities which would please and gratify the talisman's owner. Then he looked at the tree and saw it was a fig-tree, but it was bearing the fruits of thousands of trees. So then all his fear left him, for he understood that for certain the fig-tree was a list, an index, an exhibition. The hidden ruler must have attached samples of the fruits in the garden to the tree through a miracle and with a talisman, and must have adorned the tree in a way that would point to each of the foods he had prepared for his guests. For there is no other way a single tree could produce the fruits of thousands of different trees. Then he began to entreat that he would be inspired with the key to the talisman. He called out:
"O ruler of this place! I have fallen on your fortune and I take refuge with you. I am your servant and I want to please you. I am searching for you." After he had made this supplication, the walls of the well suddenly parted, and a door opened onto a wonderful, pleasant, quiet garden. Indeed, the dragon's mouth was transformed into the door, and both it and the lion took on the forms of two servants; they invited him to enter. The lion even became a docile horse for him.
And so, O my lazy soul! And O my imaginary friend! Come! Let us compare the position of these two brothers, so that we can see how good brings good and evil brings evil. Let us find out.
Look, the unhappy traveller on the left road is all the time trembling with fear waiting to enter the dragon's mouth, while the fortunate one is invited into a blooming, splendid garden full of fruit. And the unfortunate one's heart is being pounded by an awful terror and grievous fear, while the fortunate one is gazing at and observing strange things as a delightful lesson, with a pleasant fear and loving knowledge. Also the miserable one is suffering torments in desolation, despair, and loneliness, while the fortunate one is taking pleasure in hope, longing, and familiarity. Furthermore, the unfortunate one sees himself as a prisoner subject to the attacks of wild beasts, while the fortunate one is an honoured guest who is on friendly terms and enjoying himself with the strange servants of the generous host of whom he is the guest. Also the unhappy one is hastening his torments by indulging in fruits which are apparently delicious but in fact poisonous. For the fruits are samples; there is permission to taste them so as to seek the originals and become customers for them, but there is no permission to devour them like an animal. But the fortunate one tastes them and understands the matter; he postpones eating them and takes pleasure in waiting. Moreover, the unfortunate one is wronging himself. Through his lack of discernment, he is making a truth and a situation which are as clear and bright as daylight into a dark and oppressive fear, into a hellish delusion. He does not deserve pity, nor does he have the right to complain to anyone.
For example, if a person who is at a pleasant banquet in a beautiful garden in summer among his friends makes himself drunk through filthy intoxicants,
Risale-i Nur Collection
Long ago, two brothers set off on a long journey. They continued on their way until the road forked. At the fork they saw a serious-looking man and asked him: "Which road is good?" He told them: "On the road to the right one is compelled to comply with the law and order, but within that hardship is security and happiness. However, on the left-hand road there is freedom and no restraint, but within its freedom lies danger and wretchedness. Now, the choice is yours!"
After listening to this, saying, I place my trust in God,3 the brother with a good character took the right road and conformed to the order and regulations. The other brother, who was immoral and a layabout, chose the road to the left just for the lack of restraint. With our imaginations, we shall follow this man in his situation, which was apparently easy but in reality burdensome.
Thus, this man went up hill and down dale until he found himself in a desolate wilderness. He suddenly heard a terrifying sound and saw that a great lion had come out of the forest and was about to attack him. He fled. He came across a waterless well sixty metres deep, and in his fear jumped into it. He fell half-way down it where his hands met a tree. He clung on to it. The tree, which was growing out of the walls of the well, had two roots. Two rats, one white and one black, were attacking and gnawing through them. He looked up and saw that the lion was waiting at the top of the well like a sentry. He looked down and saw a ghastly dragon. It raised its head and drew it close to his foot thirty metres above. Its mouth was as big as the mouth of the well. Then he looked at the well's walls and saw that stinging, poisonous vermin had gathered round him. He looked up at the mouth of the well and saw a fig-tree. But it was not an ordinary tree, it bore the fruit of many different trees, from walnuts to pomegranates.
Thus, through his lack of thought and foolishness, the man did not understand that this was not just some ordinary matter, these things were not here by chance, and that there were mysterious secrets concealed in these strange beings. And he did not grasp that there was someone very powerful directing them. Now, although his heart, spirit, and mind were secretly weeping and wailing at this grievous situation, his evil-commanding soul pretended that it was nothing; it closed its ears to the weeping of his heart and spirit, and deceiving itself, started to eat the tree's fruit as though it was in a garden. But some of the fruit were poisonous and harmful. Almighty God says in a Divine Hadith: "I am according to how my servants think of Me."
Thus, through his foolishness and lack of understanding, this unhappy man thought what he saw to be ordinary and the actual truth. And so that is the way he was treated, and is treated, and will be treated. He neither dies so that he is saved from it, nor does he live - he is in such torment. And so, we shall leave this ill-omened man in his torment and return, so that we may consider the situation of the other brother.
This fortunate and intelligent person went on his way, but he suffered no distress like his brother. For, due to his fine morals, he thought of good things, and imagined good things. Everything was friendly and familiar to him. And he did not suffer any difficulty and hardship like his brother, for he knew the order and followed it. He found it easy. He went on his way freely and in peace and security. Then he came across a garden in which were both lovely flowers and fruits, and, since it was not looked after, rotting and filthy things. His brother had also entered such a garden, but he had noticed and occupied himself with the filthy things and they had turned his stomach, so he had left it and moved on without being able to rest at all. But this man acted according to the rule, 'look on the good side of everything', and had paid no attention to the rotting things. He had benefited a lot from the good things, and taking a good rest, he had left and gone on his way.
Later, also like the first brother, he had entered a vast desert, and had suddenly heard the roar of a lion which was attacking him. He was frightened, but not as much as his brother. For, because of his good thoughts and positive attitude, he thought to himself: "This desert has a ruler, and it is possible that this lion is a servant under the ruler's command," and found consolation. But he still fled until he came across an empty well sixty metres deep. He threw himself into it. Like his brother, his hand clasped a tree half-way down and he remained suspended in the air. He looked and saw two animals gnawing through the tree's two roots. He looked up and saw the lion, and looked down and saw the dragon. Just like his brother he was seeing a most strange situation. He was terrified like him, but his terror was a thousand times less than his brother's. For his good morals had given him good thoughts, and good thoughts show the good side of everything. So, because of this, he thought like this:
"These strange happenings are connected to someone. Also it seems that they are acting in accordance with a command. In which case, these matters contain a talisman. Yes, they are turning at the command of a hidden ruler. Therefore, I am not alone; the hidden ruler is watching me, he is testing me, he is impelling me somewhere for some purpose, and inviting me there. A curiosity arising from this pleasant fear and these agreeable thoughts prompt me to say: I wonder who it is that is testing me, wants to make himself known, and is impelling me for some purpose on this strange road."
Then, love for the owner of the talisman arose out of the desire to know him, and from that love arose the desire to solve the talisman. And from that desire arose the will to acquire good qualities which would please and gratify the talisman's owner. Then he looked at the tree and saw it was a fig-tree, but it was bearing the fruits of thousands of trees. So then all his fear left him, for he understood that for certain the fig-tree was a list, an index, an exhibition. The hidden ruler must have attached samples of the fruits in the garden to the tree through a miracle and with a talisman, and must have adorned the tree in a way that would point to each of the foods he had prepared for his guests. For there is no other way a single tree could produce the fruits of thousands of different trees. Then he began to entreat that he would be inspired with the key to the talisman. He called out:
"O ruler of this place! I have fallen on your fortune and I take refuge with you. I am your servant and I want to please you. I am searching for you." After he had made this supplication, the walls of the well suddenly parted, and a door opened onto a wonderful, pleasant, quiet garden. Indeed, the dragon's mouth was transformed into the door, and both it and the lion took on the forms of two servants; they invited him to enter. The lion even became a docile horse for him.
And so, O my lazy soul! And O my imaginary friend! Come! Let us compare the position of these two brothers, so that we can see how good brings good and evil brings evil. Let us find out.
Look, the unhappy traveller on the left road is all the time trembling with fear waiting to enter the dragon's mouth, while the fortunate one is invited into a blooming, splendid garden full of fruit. And the unfortunate one's heart is being pounded by an awful terror and grievous fear, while the fortunate one is gazing at and observing strange things as a delightful lesson, with a pleasant fear and loving knowledge. Also the miserable one is suffering torments in desolation, despair, and loneliness, while the fortunate one is taking pleasure in hope, longing, and familiarity. Furthermore, the unfortunate one sees himself as a prisoner subject to the attacks of wild beasts, while the fortunate one is an honoured guest who is on friendly terms and enjoying himself with the strange servants of the generous host of whom he is the guest. Also the unhappy one is hastening his torments by indulging in fruits which are apparently delicious but in fact poisonous. For the fruits are samples; there is permission to taste them so as to seek the originals and become customers for them, but there is no permission to devour them like an animal. But the fortunate one tastes them and understands the matter; he postpones eating them and takes pleasure in waiting. Moreover, the unfortunate one is wronging himself. Through his lack of discernment, he is making a truth and a situation which are as clear and bright as daylight into a dark and oppressive fear, into a hellish delusion. He does not deserve pity, nor does he have the right to complain to anyone.
For example, if a person who is at a pleasant banquet in a beautiful garden in summer among his friends makes himself drunk through filthy intoxicants,
Risale-i Nur Collection
HerDotness
Lady Babbleon
Similarly.. i want to prove that there would be no ATHEISTS without GOD.
How about proving that there would be no atheists without numerous beliefs in gods? That's doable.
Your intent is simply a recycled exercise in futility.
There is a difference between the concept of God and God, you know.Because you have done this mistake, And the name of this mistake is: "Replying to this thread"
This means that there would be no NON-SMOKERS without CIGARETTES, Right ?
Similarly.. i want to prove that there would be no ATHEISTS without GOD.
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
Answer has no relation with the quantity of words, One can use as many as they want.
No, that's literally what atheist means. Non-theist. No more. No less. That is the bare-bones definition of atheist. If your word games have a point then why not just make it so we get right down to the business of telling you why you are wrong.
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
i want to prove that there would be no ATHEISTS without GOD.
And you would be wrong. There are no atheists without theists. There is a difference.
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ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
So, the existence of people who don't believe in the Loch Ness monster proves that there is a Loch Ness Monster? The existence of people who don't believe in leprechauns proves that there are leprechauns?This means that there would be no NON-SMOKERS without CIGARETTES, Right ?
Similarly.. i want to prove that there would be no ATHEISTS without GOD.
chinu
chinu
Because this is not possible, and this what i want to prove..
Its impossible to prove the term atheist without using the term god. Right ?
Just think.. if the above line would have been the title of any new thread, What would be the replies ?
Yes! surely one can reply much better if one is having good language skills, i hope you are not in the mood of sleeping.
HerDotness
Lady Babbleon
Because this is not possible, and this what i want to prove..
Its impossible to prove the term atheist without using the term god. Right ?
Just think.. if the above line would have been the title of any new thread, What would be the replies ?
To your first question, "There's no question that the term 'atheist' is defined by reference to deity/ies. There's nothing to prove or disprove."
To your second question: Same answer.
You're attempting to raise once again that same-old-same-old, "There has to be some deity of some kind or there'd be no cause for anyone to be an atheist."
It's a specious and more than somewhat silly argument to start with.
A Troubled Man
Active Member
Define an atheist ? Without using these words: god, creator, or any word which indicates god.
Is it possible ?
No problem, an atheist is someone who does not accept the claims of theists.
Poppycock! Most atheists don't believe theists are wrong, though they might believe their conclusions baseless.
Atheists suspend judgement till evidence appears.
Similarly, no a-Thorists without Thor or no a-Romulists sans Romulans?This means that there would be no NON-SMOKERS without CIGARETTES, Right ?
Similarly.. i want to prove that there would be no ATHEISTS without GOD.
Does your own a-Fthisshianism necessitate the existance of Fthisshians?
[My presumption of your being an a-Fthisshian rests on the fact that I just made the Fthisshians up, yet, by your reasoning, Fthisshianism must needs exist].
Don't they believe in their babies, until DNA test ?
What does this mean? Do we need DNA testing to know where babies come from?
Define an atheist ? Without using these words: god, creator, or any word which indicates god.
Is it possible ?
Or an atheist means the one who doesn't believe in creation which we can see all around us ?
Thats like asking to define the word theist without using the words god, creator, etc...
chinu
chinu
Yes! this is what i want to say, firstly came god, and then came thiests, and further came atheists.
chinu
chinu
Why not.
That is what am saying: if there would have been no god than there would have been no atheists.Asking for a definition of something that does not include anything that defines that something is a pointless word game, not a meaningful one
chinu
chinu
If you think so.. than enjoy the functions of your mind within your mind itself. But now i think your mind is feeling too laziness to go deep into this theory.
chinu
chinu
But its not possible whiout this word God , that it.
Gods, or Numerous beliefs. is another long chapter which can be decided in another new threads.
Than why you replied to the thread ?
chinu
chinu
Similarly as there is the difference between the concept of Atheist and Atheist, we know. Right ?
This would be problematic for the atheist.
See [youtube]mNxbXQecm2I[/youtube]
this video. I have to say WLC has a point.
To the OP. Here is my definition.
Atheism is a belief that all organized religions are wrong. Why? There is no evidence for any of the claims that organized religions make. So, atheism needs the existence of theism so that atheism can be a philosophical position.
Now that I have defined atheism to be a belief, I should shoulder the Burden of Proof. However, I need to do that only if I want to convince someone of atheism. I dont. Without arguing for my position, I am well within my right to question theists.
chinu
chinu
The question was about the defination without using god or similar words to god etc.., it was not to write the another name for atheist, and you are stating it as bare-bone.
If i would have done so..than also nothing new may happen, Same replies, Same topic.
I know am not writing any article or poetry.
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