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Why can't I go to heaven?

Muffled

Jesus in me
actually not at all...

so if one is to do good deeds with out them being threatened to do so
is worse than if one does good deeds because they are threatened?

Let us say there are two stores A and B. A man does work for stor A and goes to store B for his reward. Will he get one from store B? No because his good work was doe for store A. Now another man does the same work but for store B. He gets a reward from store B because the wrok was doen for store B. Unfortunately store A doesn't giv eout rewards for work so work at store A is done in vain.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The title sounds dumb I know, but hear me out.

For the sake of argument, let's just say that god does in fact exist. Being an atheist, I would therefore be condemned to suffer an eternity of torment in hell. But...

Why? I am a good person. I'm not a criminal and I've never done drugs. On any normal day, I will go out of my way to help someone if they ask. Sometimes they don't even need to; I'll just offer my help. So if god is just sitting up there watching all this, why would he send me to hell? Because I don't believe? It was him after all who gave me the ability to not believe. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't, because I find the idea of an omnipotent creator absurd and illogical. If he truly did love me, as the bible says he claims to do, then surely he would be able to overlook the transgression of a difference of opinion when I am an overall good person.

Anyone else share the same theory, or have something to counter with?

I haven't read yet any of the responses you've gotten so far, but here is my view on the matter and one which should give you hope.

I am talking to you strictly on biblical terms of which all of it has to do with an existing deity, that would be the creator God.

Apart from that, anything can be imagined.

The very fact of our existence, the fact that we are as gods, meaning having the ability to reason, makes us above the animal kingdom in intelligence and special created beings.

That favor was bestowed on us first at our loss, but then restored for our benefit and the loss of one, the Son of God, verses the loss of many.

The whole biblical narrative of the existence of God and mankind deal with just that issue.

If one chose not to believe in God and the what is written of Him in the bible, then there only remains whatever one can imagine the reasons for life to be, and that without hope.

Having set up the stage, I can now give you a synopsis of the dealing between God and mankind.
The term ... "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"...is the desire of God. Don't let the "let us" words throw you off, as though there were more than one God. That can be explained later.

But for the moment we want to concentrate on these words "in our image, after our likeness:".

That right there is the reason for our being created.

The problem with that was that if we are created in His likeness and His image, we actually become as gods, lower case g, with powers only to make intelligent decisions.

That created a problem between the only one God and the many gods as far as supreme authority was concerned.

The one God (Creater of all there is) is the supreme creator can not co-exist with other gods unless one of them be extinguished.

Guess who had to die? Us!

Restoration for (us) therefore, was in the mix from the very get go.

And that is what the whole existence of the bible explains.

The "restore-er" is none but the Son of God.

Son of God verses the sons of God taking the death penalty is the restoration of mankind from the dead.

I don't expect that this simple explanation give you a complete understanding of who or what God is and how He relates to us, but as like a seed planted.

If the seed planted takes on good ground, it will prosper, but if it falls on hard soil, the chances of survival are slim.

Such is the information concerning the workings of God written in print, and that is so that the seed of His spirit be planted on good soil (soil in this case meaning us, as in our willingness to look into the existence and workings of God in our lives) that being so...His spirit would grow us into mature believers.

As a mature believer, I have come to the understanding that Jesus paid the penalty for all of us, that only one soul should become became lost verses the many. (All of us)

What does that mean? Well, it means that you as an unbeliever have been given the right to life via Gods restoration process, believe it or not.

Your choice, should you decide, is a matter of believing or not in God.

Let me just say in closing, that the world as a whole was conceived in darkness. (Meaning without knowledge of the existence of God).

Until the spirit of light (God) came over the waters (people) and divided the waters (People) between two places, heaven and earth.

That was the first creation, the physical.

The second and lasting creation was in the spiritual which had to do with our restoration via Jesus Christ.

In Christ we can be born again as new creatures, not of this world but of the next.

That my friend is the hope I want to give you to look into.

God is not a respecter of persons, but rather looks at the heart of which it is, and if you have a good heart, as you claim to have, then God is strongly looking at you in favor.

May you have a prosperous spiritual quest in finding that peace and hope that you seek, evidenced by the very question you posted in this thread.

Blessings, AJ
 
I have actually met some exceptions...
A team leader was spouting his lack of belief during a break at work.
Claims to have been a deacon of a local parish.
His faith fell away....for him God does not exist.

So I did ask him....
Aren't you the guy the stands ground for the people who do what you say?
When the big boss is ******....you take the responsibility?
Aren't you the guy that takes unto himself the more dangerous task....
sending me to other things...for the sake of my safety?

And you do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

'Yes'.

So I told him to carry on.
When we die the angels will take him.
They will do that, for cause of his performance.

But then I told him...his denial will earn him a slap up side the head
and hopefully it won't go any further than that.

Not trying to get into heaven is one thing.
Denying God is something else.
Heaven makes the choice.

I see you're still evading the question and still contradicting your earlier remarks. If God slaps your team leader upside the head for denying him then this means God is not indifferent to him, correct?

You know, perhaps if you didn't focus so much on writing poetry and more on addressing the points and answering questions we could actually have a discussion. All you keep doing is repeating your conflicting remarks over and over that God is indifferent to those who deny him while at the same time saying he will pointedly chastise them for the same thing.

Of course, making denial of God in a forum of world wide effect?.....
That makes for a lot of slapping.
Wait a minute, are you saying that a God-denier earns more slaps for denying God on an internet forum? Are you serious?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I see you're still evading the question and still contradicting your earlier remarks. If God slaps your team leader upside the head for denying him then this means God is not indifferent to him, correct?

You know, perhaps if you didn't focus so much on writing poetry and more on addressing the points and answering questions we could actually have a discussion. All you keep doing is repeating your conflicting remarks over and over that God is indifferent to those who deny him while at the same time saying he will pointedly chastise them for the same thing.

Wait a minute, are you saying that a God-denier earns more slaps for denying God on an internet forum? Are you serious?

Let's say I pronounce something you don't like.
You make your approach and knock me down, bruising my face.
I go away.

Later on, I stand alongside the afterlife with others like myself...brothers.

When you make your approach.....
'...hey!...isn't that the guy that bruised your face!?....'

And you will be received by each of my brothers....as you received me.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you ...is fair warning.

The same applies for deceptions and denial.
If you lead someone to disbelief, and their spirit is lost for cause of it....
God may well be...'upset'.

If you spread your denial and deception on a large scale...
Then what of you?
 

obi one

Member
From what I understand one must accept Jesus' lordship and divinity in order to be saved in most modern Protestant and Catholic traditions. I find the concept of God to be problematic and illogical. Therefore I am condemned to hell in these traditions.

If you are looking at the Protestant and the Catholic traditions, then I can understand you discomfort with their conclusions based on their own traditions.

My suggestion would to be to bypass these traditions and seek the truth independently. One of the originators of the Reformation, Martin Luther, considered the Catholic church to be "Babylon the Great, the mother of Harlots". That would make the Protestants the Harlots and the Catholic Church the mystery church whereas Yeshua said in Revelation 18:4, "Come out of her" or receive of her plagues. Since you are not firmly entrenched in Babylon, and only tainted by second hand smoke, I would think any search for truth should be less onerous.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
To spread compassion is far more important than to spread believing in God as a concept.

Yes, compassive atheist should go to Jesus according to scripture:

-Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Someone who treats Jesus well will simply go to heaven.
 
I can excuse you because you haven't been on this site that long. I have encountered many posters on this site who have expressed the opinion that they did not wish to go to Heaven.

No doubt a few have. But do you understand that they don't believe it exists? It's more likely that what they're actually saying is not that they don't want to go to heaven but rather that they find the idea of heaven unappealing.

It is not simply symbolism. It is a warning sign posted for people to read like a sign on a lawn saying "beware of the freocious dog."
Again, we're not talking about symbolism or warnings or the price of goat cheese in Afghanistan. We're talking about the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
Isn't this what I've been saying?

Yes. Having accepted Jesus as Lord I have no choices.
Wrong. I once chose to accept Jesus as Lord but later chose to reject that belief.

I have already made that choice, probably before this life and definitely re-affirmed it in this life. God makes me good. That depends on the spiritual growth of the individual. There was a time in my Christian walk when I was in control and had to be told what to do but now Jesus is in control. He doesn't have to tell me what to do because He is there doing it.
So what you're saying is that now you're a robot? How can God reward you for righteous living if you're not actually the one responsible for your righteous actions?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
To spread compassion is far more important than to spread believing in God as a concept.

Yes, compassive atheist should go to Jesus according to scripture:

-Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Someone who treats Jesus well will simply go to heaven.[/quote]

So there would be hope for that team leader I worked with?
In spite of his denial...I kinda like the guy.

How about those Roman soldiers that nailed the Carpenter?
How about those pious pharisees?

As many times as there are saints...shall they receive their reward?
 
Let's say I pronounce something you don't like.
You make your approach and knock me down, bruising my face.
I go away.

Later on, I stand alongside the afterlife with others like myself...brothers.

When you make your approach.....
'...hey!...isn't that the guy that bruised your face!?....'

And you will be received by each of my brothers....as you received me.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you ...is fair warning.

The same applies for deceptions and denial.
If you lead someone to disbelief, and their spirit is lost for cause of it....
God may well be...'upset'.

If he's upset then he's not indifferent is he?

If you spread your denial and deception on a large scale...
Then what of you?

Saying that I deny a belief in God is not a deception, it happens to be the truth.

If you're implying that I try to deceive people by telling them there's no God, you're flat out wrong. I've never told a single person that God doesn't exist because that would be a truth claim I can't substantiate.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Someone who treats Jesus well will simply go to heaven.[/quote]

So there would be hope for that team leader I worked with?
In spite of his denial...I kinda like the guy.

How about those Roman soldiers that nailed the Carpenter?
How about those pious pharisees?

As many times as there are saints...shall they receive their reward?

I am of the opinion that no good deed goes unrewarded, and sins go unpunished only through forgiveness.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If he's upset then he's not indifferent is he?

Saying that I deny a belief in God is not a deception, it happens to be the truth.

If you're implying that I try to deceive people by telling them there's no God, you're flat out wrong. I've never told a single person that God doesn't exist because that would be a truth claim I can't substantiate.

Such is the nature of deception.
First yourself.
Perhaps by your own cause, perhaps that someone else said so.

Then the deception spreads....because you say so.
All the while you think you've got it right.

That you take a stance of 'no proof'...helps?

I believe in God, for cause and reason...but no proof.
You claim you do not believe in God...for lack of proof...and that makes it true?

Your example could lead someone else.

If you then find you were wrong....and the angels come looking for you...
what will you say?
'...I could not nod my head....for God has not shown me proof'....?
 

Daviso452

Boy Genius
Such is the nature of deception.
First yourself.
Perhaps by your own cause, perhaps that someone else said so.

Then the deception spreads....because you say so.
All the while you think you've got it right.

That you take a stance of 'no proof'...helps?

I believe in God, for cause and reason...but no proof.
You claim you do not believe in God...for lack of proof...and that makes it true?

Your example could lead someone else.

If you then find you were wrong....and the angels come looking for you...
what will you say?
'...I could not nod my head....for God has not shown me proof'....?
I want to know; is there any reason why we should believe you when you say we are the ones deceiving and you are the one with truth?
 
Such is the nature of deception.
First yourself.
Perhaps by your own cause, perhaps that someone else said so.

Then the deception spreads....because you say so.
All the while you think you've got it right.

Got what right? Once again, I've never said there's no God.

That you take a stance of 'no proof'...helps?
Helps what?

I believe in God, for cause and reason...but no proof.
You claim you do not believe in God...for lack of proof...and that makes it true?
You claim you believe in God because of faith...and that makes it true? No. Besides, I disbelieve in God for many causes and reasons but lack of proof is not one of them.

Your example could lead someone else.
I don't have the power to lead anyone anywhere they don't already want to go. If I had that kind of power I'd be a millionaire. To believe or disbelieve is a personal choice and I am not responsible for anyone's personal choices.

Having said that, if a person asks me if I believe in God, Ill tell them. If they ask me why I don't believe, I'll tell them. Never have I ever had the intention of convincing anyone that there's no God. See, I understand that for some people, faith gives them hope and purpose and I for one would never take that from them even if I could.

If you then find you were wrong....and the angels come looking for you...
what will you say?
'...I could not nod my head....for God has not shown me proof'....?
If God is indifferent towards me, why would the angels come looking for me?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I want to know; is there any reason why we should believe you when you say we are the ones deceiving and you are the one with truth?

I suppose the best answer...as there is no proof for the faith....
Do my words have that 'ring of truth'?

Often you can 'see' through the dialog and realize what is being handed to you and why.
Sometimes it's difficult.

As a rogue theologian, I take the time and effort, sort through the dialog...
as it may well be....all I take with me from this life....
is what I can say with certainty.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Let us say there are two stores A and B. A man does work for stor A and goes to store B for his reward. Will he get one from store B? No because his good work was doe for store A. Now another man does the same work but for store B. He gets a reward from store B because the wrok was doen for store B. Unfortunately store A doesn't giv eout rewards for work so work at store A is done in vain.

so if one is to do good deeds with out them being threatened to do so
is worse than if one does good deeds because they are threatened?
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
so if one is to do good deeds with out them being threatened to do so
is worse than if one does good deeds because they are threatened?

Threatened???

He was saying that it is better to do good deed because you want to rather than if you feel as though you have to. (The recipient of the good deeds wouldn't know the difference, either way)
 
Threatened???

He was saying that it is better to do good deed because you want to rather than if you feel as though you have to. (The recipient of the good deeds wouldn't know the difference, either way)

waitasec's remarks were in response to this post by loverOfTruth, quoted in two parts:

"I would like to bring a different perspective(other than the predominant judeo-christian views) to answer the question :
First of all, the Qur'an states the consequence of good deeds without belief as follows:

"Say: 'Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?' They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest." Qur'an


Even if we avoid harsher terms like "threaten", the meaning is still clear that we should do good works out of faith for God in order to at least receive a reward. So according to this passage in the Qur'an - whether you interpret it as a threat of damnation or just as an admonishment that you won't receive a reward for good works without faith - nowhere is it even implied that one should do good works because they want to.

This of course raises the question why, if God truly does want us to do good works because we want to, unbelievers are still either damned or not rewarded even if they do good works just because they want to.

That is reason #1 as to why good deeds without faith in the Creator is not accepted.

The reason # 2 is related in an event mentioned in the Qur'an regarding the pre-eternal covenant made between God and the human spirits (all of the descendants of Adam) :
"And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring) and made them testify as to themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes! We testify," lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Verily, we have been unaware of this." Qur'an (7:172)

"They all answer in the affirmative, the implication being that everyone who is born into this world has agreed in substance (in the essence of their soul) to this covenant, and that although we may have no conscious knowledge or memory of this pact, its reality is woven into our very nature. This world is a place of distraction and forgetfullness but at our core lies the metaphysical truth of this covenant and one of the purposes of religion is to awaken to consciousness an awareness of this bond between God and man as well as all the concealed potentials that flow from this bond. All of the Prophet's have come throughout the entirety of history to remind men of their promise of fidelity to this pact. "

Taken from "Time in the Qur'an" by - Irshaad Hussain - islamfrominside.com

So subconsciously we all know that God exists - it is in our Genes. Yet, we choose to follow our vain desires and reject God.
Doing good works and rejecting God are two different things. Even if we allow that rejecting God is a vain desire, doing good works is not. So the message in the Qur'an (and the Bible) is clear: good works without faith will get you damned or unrewarded. This means that according to these two texts, morality and good works have no inherent purpose in and of themselves, they are just icing on the cake of faith.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Threatened???

He was saying that it is better to do good deed because you want to rather than if you feel as though you have to. (The recipient of the good deeds wouldn't know the difference, either way)

this wasn't directed to you....therefore i am not questioning your beliefs am i
if you take a step back and see what the context is then you'll get where i'm going with this...

:)
 
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