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Does the Bible Permit Women to Lead, Teach, Preach or Speak?

Jethro

Member
It seems to me that if this question was put to every evangelical Christians today in Australia and in the West, there would be three main responses. The first and overwhelming response would likely be, ‘yes of course the Bible allows women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the Church’. The second response would likely be, ‘I am not sure if the Bible allows women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the Church. But I think it should be up to each Christian to decide for themselves’. And the third response would be, ‘no of course the Bible does not allow women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the Church.
Well, whatever the response of the majority of evangelicals is today, it is fair to state that if this question had been put to evangelicals 30 years ago, the majority would have said ‘no’. Furthermore, if this same question was put to evangelical 60 or more years ago, the overwhelming reply would have been ‘no’. Also, the Christian church has held on to the convictions that women must remain silent in the church for about 1920 years. Well, if this is the case, which it is, then some very important questions need to be asked. Firstly, what has caused this massive swing of convictions, so that the majority of postmodern evangelicals now go against what evangelicals held to only 30 years ago, and what the Christian church held to for around 1920 years? Is the reason because today’s evangelicals are smarter, wiser and more spiritual than their evangelical forebears? After all, this is the false reasoning of evolutionists. No of course, today’s evangelicals aren’t smarter, wiser and more spiritual than their evangelical forebears. For we only have to compare the music, ministry, literature, spiritual life and morals of today’s evangelicals to that of our evangelical forebears, to find that we fall very short in all of these areas.
Therefore, if this massive swing of convictions has nothing to do with the intellectual or spiritual superiority of today’s evangelicals—then what has caused the majority of them to change their beliefs? Well, the answer is very simple—feminism. For we need to realise that this massive swing of convictions has taken place since 1960, around the same time that the feminist movement (2nd wave) started its tireless campaign to distort God’s intended role for women.
The second important question we need to ask is, why would evangelicals be influenced by a secular movement whose main agenda was fighting for women’s rights, many of which go against God’s calling for women? Well the answer once again is quite simple. As women were given more and more rights, power, influence and equality in the secular world, some ‘professing’ Christian women saw this as a great opportunity to seek the same in the church. Sadly, many true, yet naïve Christian women were deceived and started to accept this unbiblical conviction. Furthermore, because of the huge influence that the feminists movement was having on the minds of secular people (men and women), some true, yet naïve Christian men were also deceived. Thus, they started supporting this new and unbiblical ‘freedom’. Furthermore, as the feminist movement gained momentum in the evangelical church, even some pastors and elders were deceived into supporting such an unbiblical mindset. The result being, that many pastors over the past 30 or so years have written books, defending the ‘supposed’ right of women either leading, teaching, preaching or speaking in the church.
Now we return to the all-important question; does the Bible permit women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the church? This is the all-important question, because if the answer is ‘yes’ then, not enough women are taking advantage of this permission. Furthermore, if the answer is ‘yes’, then not all churches are taking advantage of this permission, and so not making use of the available workers. Moreover, if the answer is ‘yes’, then Christian men who do not permit their Christian women folk to do such things will have to answer to God on the Day of Judgement.However, if the answer is ‘no’ then, all women who do either lead, teach, preach or speak in the church have disobeyed God’s Word, and will have to answer to Him on the Day of Judgement. Furthermore, if the answer is ‘no’, all men who sit back and allow women to either lead, teach, preach or speak in the church have also disobeyed God’s Word, and will also have to answer to Him on the Day of Judgement. Moreover, if the answer is ‘no’, all pastors and elders who encourage and promote women to either lead, teach, preach or speak in the church have also disobeyed God’s Word, and likewise will have to answer to Him on the Day of Judgement.Therefore, we can see that it is imperative that we know what the true answer is to this all-important question. Why? So that we will not be disobeying God’s Word, and therefore, unnecessarily subjecting ourselves to God’s Judgement on that great Day. However, how can we find out the answer to this all-important question? Well, as with all areas of Christian life and doctrine, we need to go to the Bible, God’s Holy Word. For it alone is the final authority on all matters of faith and practice. Furthermore, we need to realise that all of Scripture is God’s Word. For Paul clearly stated in 2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed...” And Peter clearly stated in 2 Peter 1:20, “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit
Therefore, the only thing that matters is what God has clearly revealed in His Word—not the opinions of other, not our own opinions, and not our personal preferences.
What has God clearly revealed on this subject? In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, the apostle commanded, “As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (NIV) This Scripture alone is sufficient to prove that women are not allowed to preach, teach or speak in the church, “…women should remain silent in the churches.” (NIV). However, many people still ignore or twist Paul’s first command and claim that he did not really mean that women are to literally remain silent in the church. However, this is false indeed, for Paul clearly qualified it by stating, “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak…”(NIV).
Moreover, Paul clearly qualified this by stating in verse 34, “They (women) are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says” (NIV). Although this sounds very straight forward, the fact that many women today refuse to submit to all men in the church shows that they reject Paul’s command here. Therefore, when a woman speaks in the church, she is not only failing to submit to all of the men of the church, but worse still, she is failing to submit to the Word and Law of God.
What is the cause for this refusal of many women to submit to God’s Word and to men in the church? Once again the simple answer is feminism. For we know that feminism has caused the majority of women to believe that they no longer have to submit to men. And sadly, this has crept into the church. For feminism has caused many professing Christian women to become rough, loud and arrogant, the very opposite of how God wants Christian women to be(1 Peter 3:3-6) (NIV).
Paul continues to reinforce the importance of women being silent in the church by saying in verse 35, “If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home…”(NIV) Paul makes it very clear that women are not allowed to speak or talk in the church, not even to ask their husbands a question let alone preach, teach or lead. Yet, how many women and men for that matter ignore God’s clear Word here? Why does God not allow women to even ask their own husbands a question in church? Paul gives us the answer in the rest of the verse, “for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (NIV)
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
how come it's just paul who says that? isn't that kinda.... odd? I was under the impression that nobody should speak in church. it's either shut up and listen, or sing :p wether it is a disgrace for someone to speak in church depends entirely on what they say. who claims differently is stupid. so if you want to insist god says that, go ahead.. I for one don't buy it.

"feminism has caused many professing Christian women to become rough, loud and arrogant, the very opposite of how God wants Christian women to be"

orly? has it not also cut down on marital rape and domestic abuse? and what about the professing christian men who are quite clearly full of it? did maleism cause this? and what do you suggest to do about it -- that is, if you're even aware of the problem?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yep, i agree with you on the feminism infiltrating the minds of many. Most women would balk at the idea that they should be submissive to the lead of the men in the church, but paul gives a really good reason for us to do so:
Hebrews 13:17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU

Its for our benefit... and im certainly glad that our church has not caved in to the pressure of the feminism ideology. :)
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
im sure if you knew a man who was worthy of respect, you'd find it easy to submit to him

:)

that's rather circular. what makes a person worthy of respect? that they don't command others to do horrible things, for example.

everybody can "submit" to something that is agreeable to them. that is not submission. that's just love. and it goes both ways.

and it doesn't say "to men who are worthy of respect" anyway, does it.. there is no such qualifier. get married and obey, no matter what. maybe if you ever met a man who takes that to the full extent, or talked to a woman who has been with one, you would see the underbelly of it.

the bit you quoted says "to those who take the lead". good luck that that. it's been my experience that the people who want to lead are rarely fit to do so. you don't have to tell someone who is loved and loves and is being treated well to respect their spouse, I don't think. I very well would hope so. and it surely shouldn't just go one way.

now here's a question... if women shouldn't be allowed to speak in church, should they be allowed to post in christian DIR forums?

I mean, it's easy for me to agree to "men shouldn't do [something I never did]", too... most people are fine with not being a pastor. would you be fine to not ever be able to speak on doctrine again? to ask your husband at home, where it doesn't disturb the important conversations of men? to be a mere receptacle? be my guest. I for one would miss a lot of input from a lot of serious female christians very much.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Paul was very clear about the place of women, in life and in the Church

However Jesus Chose Mary Magdalene to find the empty tomb and showed himself to her when he rose from the dead. It was she he told to tell the other Disciples that he had risen. They did not believer her, and for this he rebuked them. Mary Magdalene was known as the Apostle to the Apostles. The Gnostic scripture shows that it was only at her insistence that they overcame their doubt and fear and went out as Apostles.

The place of women in the Church was a cultural thing. Only a few of the strongest women have been able to overcome this prejudice. It was taught in the early church that only men could obtain salvation.

Jesus taught that men and women are equal in the sight of God. He did not say " only when your culture Agrees"

This is well worth reading and covers women priets in the ancient church

The Problem of the Ordination of Women in the Early Christian Priesthood
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Paul was very clear about the place of women, in life and in the Church
I'm not so sure about that. If we assume that everything that was written in the name of Paul was from Paul, then he contradicts himself. If we remove those pieces that don't seem to be from Paul, then we have Paul supporting the role of women leadership in the church.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Yep, i agree with you on the feminism infiltrating the minds of many. Most women would balk at the idea that they should be submissive to the lead of the men in the church, but paul gives a really good reason for us to do so:
Hebrews 13:17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU

Its for our benefit... and im certainly glad that our church has not caved in to the pressure of the feminism ideology. :)
Paul didn't write Hebrews.

Also, Paul recognized women leadership in the church as well. So by what you're saying, men should also be submissive to women.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It seems to me that if this question was put to every evangelical Christians today in Australia and in the West, there would be three main responses. The first and overwhelming response would likely be, ‘yes of course the Bible allows women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the Church’. The second response would likely be, ‘I am not sure if the Bible allows women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the Church. But I think it should be up to each Christian to decide for themselves’. And the third response would be, ‘no of course the Bible does not allow women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the Church.
Well, whatever the response of the majority of evangelicals is today, it is fair to state that if this question had been put to evangelicals 30 years ago, the majority would have said ‘no’. Furthermore, if this same question was put to evangelical 60 or more years ago, the overwhelming reply would have been ‘no’. Also, the Christian church has held on to the convictions that women must remain silent in the church for about 1920 years. Well, if this is the case, which it is, then some very important questions need to be asked. Firstly, what has caused this massive swing of convictions, so that the majority of postmodern evangelicals now go against what evangelicals held to only 30 years ago, and what the Christian church held to for around 1920 years? Is the reason because today’s evangelicals are smarter, wiser and more spiritual than their evangelical forebears? After all, this is the false reasoning of evolutionists. No of course, today’s evangelicals aren’t smarter, wiser and more spiritual than their evangelical forebears. For we only have to compare the music, ministry, literature, spiritual life and morals of today’s evangelicals to that of our evangelical forebears, to find that we fall very short in all of these areas.
Therefore, if this massive swing of convictions has nothing to do with the intellectual or spiritual superiority of today’s evangelicals—then what has caused the majority of them to change their beliefs? Well, the answer is very simple—feminism. For we need to realise that this massive swing of convictions has taken place since 1960, around the same time that the feminist movement (2nd wave) started its tireless campaign to distort God’s intended role for women.
The second important question we need to ask is, why would evangelicals be influenced by a secular movement whose main agenda was fighting for women’s rights, many of which go against God’s calling for women? Well the answer once again is quite simple. As women were given more and more rights, power, influence and equality in the secular world, some ‘professing’ Christian women saw this as a great opportunity to seek the same in the church. Sadly, many true, yet naïve Christian women were deceived and started to accept this unbiblical conviction. Furthermore, because of the huge influence that the feminists movement was having on the minds of secular people (men and women), some true, yet naïve Christian men were also deceived. Thus, they started supporting this new and unbiblical ‘freedom’. Furthermore, as the feminist movement gained momentum in the evangelical church, even some pastors and elders were deceived into supporting such an unbiblical mindset. The result being, that many pastors over the past 30 or so years have written books, defending the ‘supposed’ right of women either leading, teaching, preaching or speaking in the church.
Now we return to the all-important question; does the Bible permit women to lead, teach, preach or speak in the church? This is the all-important question, because if the answer is ‘yes’ then, not enough women are taking advantage of this permission. Furthermore, if the answer is ‘yes’, then not all churches are taking advantage of this permission, and so not making use of the available workers. Moreover, if the answer is ‘yes’, then Christian men who do not permit their Christian women folk to do such things will have to answer to God on the Day of Judgement.However, if the answer is ‘no’ then, all women who do either lead, teach, preach or speak in the church have disobeyed God’s Word, and will have to answer to Him on the Day of Judgement. Furthermore, if the answer is ‘no’, all men who sit back and allow women to either lead, teach, preach or speak in the church have also disobeyed God’s Word, and will also have to answer to Him on the Day of Judgement. Moreover, if the answer is ‘no’, all pastors and elders who encourage and promote women to either lead, teach, preach or speak in the church have also disobeyed God’s Word, and likewise will have to answer to Him on the Day of Judgement.Therefore, we can see that it is imperative that we know what the true answer is to this all-important question. Why? So that we will not be disobeying God’s Word, and therefore, unnecessarily subjecting ourselves to God’s Judgement on that great Day. However, how can we find out the answer to this all-important question? Well, as with all areas of Christian life and doctrine, we need to go to the Bible, God’s Holy Word. For it alone is the final authority on all matters of faith and practice. Furthermore, we need to realise that all of Scripture is God’s Word. For Paul clearly stated in 2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed...” And Peter clearly stated in 2 Peter 1:20, “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit
Therefore, the only thing that matters is what God has clearly revealed in His Word—not the opinions of other, not our own opinions, and not our personal preferences.
What has God clearly revealed on this subject? In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, the apostle commanded, “As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (NIV) This Scripture alone is sufficient to prove that women are not allowed to preach, teach or speak in the church, “…women should remain silent in the churches.” (NIV). However, many people still ignore or twist Paul’s first command and claim that he did not really mean that women are to literally remain silent in the church. However, this is false indeed, for Paul clearly qualified it by stating, “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak…”(NIV).
Moreover, Paul clearly qualified this by stating in verse 34, “They (women) are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says” (NIV). Although this sounds very straight forward, the fact that many women today refuse to submit to all men in the church shows that they reject Paul’s command here. Therefore, when a woman speaks in the church, she is not only failing to submit to all of the men of the church, but worse still, she is failing to submit to the Word and Law of God.
What is the cause for this refusal of many women to submit to God’s Word and to men in the church? Once again the simple answer is feminism. For we know that feminism has caused the majority of women to believe that they no longer have to submit to men. And sadly, this has crept into the church. For feminism has caused many professing Christian women to become rough, loud and arrogant, the very opposite of how God wants Christian women to be(1 Peter 3:3-6) (NIV).
Paul continues to reinforce the importance of women being silent in the church by saying in verse 35, “If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home…”(NIV) Paul makes it very clear that women are not allowed to speak or talk in the church, not even to ask their husbands a question let alone preach, teach or lead. Yet, how many women and men for that matter ignore God’s clear Word here? Why does God not allow women to even ask their own husbands a question in church? Paul gives us the answer in the rest of the verse, “for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (NIV)
Misogyny is not a family value.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jethro,
Candela! You picked a hot topic.
No, he picked a tired and old topic, that the fundies base upon 1) one passage from Paul and 2) the practices of the Catholic Church, neither of which is especially tenable when discussing "What God wants."
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
No, he picked a tired and old topic, that the fundies base upon 1) one passage from Paul and 2) the practices of the Catholic Church, neither of which is especially tenable when discussing "What God wants."

Still hot. I think we'll see a lot of responses to it.
 

Tamar

I am Jewish.
And one way to know that you've found a man worthy of your respect is that he would not want you to do so.

Don't know why everyone forget Deborah.

Misogyny is not a family value.

Isn't submission part of Judaism?


Judaism is not like Christianity at all in fact you will find many opinions by Jews about women but in my Jewish home there is not submission by me and there is a marriage of equality.
 
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