Landerage
Araknor
Yes why do humans have fun, enjoy luxury, wealth, and all those things that are not essential for life? many philosophers agree that all those is to take a distance from the inevitable death.
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Creationist evidence...
- Thread starter Jordan Robert Wilson
- Start date
Landerage
Araknor
Nope what I said was a question not a statement. And I asked for what values does it have, the only answer I got was to have fun, and enjoy the things in life and to love and chocolate and idk what else too.
otokage007
Well-Known Member
You just have to put this "[QUOTE = Otokage007 ; xxxxx]" at the start of the sentence and this "[ / QUOTE]" at the end of it. You can repeat it in every sentence so you can make many quotes.
For me it is much more magnificient to think we are a result of millions of years of evolution from inert matter, than to think that simply we are soul.
It wasn't a statement at all. As you can see if you read it again, I said "I think...". It was not a statement, just a personal opinion in response to a question you asked.
The only thing that humans use to stop thinking on the death, is religion.
That's just a result of your ignorance towars animal kingdom.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Do you deny that you need the affirmation of of a creator in order to find meaning in your life?
Landerage
Araknor
[/quote] Thx alot
I understand the way u think, and I used to think that way too, until I found no excuse not to beleive in God and as such beleive every word in his holy books.
religion was personaly a great releif from all that thinking.. it sets things straight and gave a meaning to my life, and I didn't stop thinking about death, but I do think of it now in another point of view... I completely disagree based on what I been through and what I learnt from religion.
I think I am ignorant in what science have to say about animals who know they gona die. But even that knowledge for animals doesn't have an effect on animals as much as on humans, killing an animal isn't same as killing a human being and that's greately due to religion being addressed to humans only and saying that animals are to serve humans.
Landerage
Araknor
Yes I find no meaning in life without a creator, or a form of correct justice after death. Else why would a killer or a thief be punished for their acts? who would say what is right and what is wrong? I would prefer to end such a life seeing all the corruption in this world, many nations were settled to doom, folowing their own barbaric laws until prophets were sent, and books taught what's right and what's wrong.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
So you are under the impression that a creatior is necessary in order to define right and wrong. That morality and life is meaningless without a deity to reward the good and punish the evil.
Is this your "evidence" of Creationism?
otokage007
Well-Known Member
We could discuss in another topic if humans have the right to use animals as slaves or if animal rights aren't important. I'll create it.
waitasec
Veteran Member
maybe so, and your point is...?
what's the difference in saying that and saying the here and now is what is important, because this is our one and only shot....
and even if it isn't...it doesn't matter to me. i can not understand how
faith in a deity is going to affect anything, i don't think that much of myself to believe the supreme being of the universe is concerned about me believing in it, seems very very trivial. thus far religion is a cause for intolerance of others and hate...so really, religion is nothing new it's just an excuse for really bad behavior sometimes, just like any other excuse.
waitasec
Veteran Member
do you find that you need to be told what to believe, do you need to be told what is right or wrong...because you yourself cannot figure it out?
if that is so, then religion is for you, however you cannot deny the fact that those who do not adhere to any religious doctrine have figured it out for them selves without the need of a carrot...so to speak.
for the sake of solidarity....
reading leviticus 19...was intended for the camp of israel... neighbor didn't mean everyone, it meant your fellow tribes man.
now a days our world is a lot smaller and with our evolved sense of compassion we understand neighbor to mean everyone.
a moral right has always been for the sake of survival.
lets look back at a time where life was much more simple. when man was a hunter and a gatherer.
we've got two guys who are providing for their families. one man is starving and his children are dying, the other man has the only food source for miles and miles.
in the eyes of god, did the starving man who goes and steals from the other do something wrong by stealing or killing to get food for his starving children?
or was he just supposed to sit there and hope something will be done for him?
i suspect if he had done nothing, he'd given up on life and accepted death. but humans aren't like that because they are aware and can rationalize, you do what you can to survive. it would have been immoral to do nothing.
and this is called survival of the fittest. it's harsh and it's cold but truth is hardly ever accommodating.
fast forward to today, yes i agree with you about the corruption, but you must understand that it isn't the people of the world who want corruption it's the leaders that are allowing for that to happen because of greed. and once the game is in play one cannot take back what was already done but move forward and learn from the past. and as we strive we learn to live in peace. however i do agree that this world is in a mess, but it's going to take a lot more than violence or doom as you say, because that already happened many times over throughout history, why do we want to keep repeating our mistakes? we need to get to the root of the problem... intolerance.
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Landerage
Araknor
I don't think ur sin is in not believing but it's more about not listening and studying what religion have to offer, I do know that every human would prefer heaven then he'll after they see both. You don't know how important faith is to me because I pre assume that you never felt God in ur life. And religion being a source of intolerance is just a your opinion, God's religion ask for love and peace, and u studied false superficial results instead of studying the core and getting truly to know what religion ask of us. Nobody have an excuse not to dig deep and see what's true and not, except yhhose who think life is for having fun
waitasec
Veteran Member
i don't think that much of myself to believe the supreme being of the universe is concerned about me believing in it, seems very very trivial...
i am concerned with the here and now... it's where i live.
here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/118923-morality-religion.html
pay close attention to what is underlined...
i don't need to study religion to know how to be good, haven't you wondered how people have figured it out without being told?
Dan4reason
Facts not Faith
Your whole post was very poetic, but I will be answering some parts of it.
I do actually. I believe that the human race came about by a natural process and we are descended from some super-simple bacteria-like organism in an organic soup billions of years ago. I do not think we came about by some loving creator.
You need to watch the twilight zone episode, "Eye of the beholder." It may be on youtube or you could do the honest thing and buy it. It only about 30 minutes long and is a real hit.
The main quote from this episode is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So beauty is not an objective thing but is quite subjective. I have wondered how pigs could ever be attracted to each other when they are so ugly. The reason for this is that the way we judge appearance depends on how our brain and emotions are wired. So humans are set to like certain anatomical traits. Why do (most) men like breasts? They are simply lumps of fat on the chest. The reason for this is that our emotions are telling us what to like. It is almost impossible for me to mentally force myself to not like them because of the emotional framework I am given from birth.
The brains of pigs tell them to like a different set of anatomical traits. Female peacocks like guys with large colorful feathery tails. Human females would be freaked out by a guy with a big feathery tail. It all depends on the emotional and mental framework you are in. So if we were given monster faces, we would probably be put in an emotional framework in which monster faces were attractive. I'm betting that to pigs we do have monster faces!
Well, beings with such limited color perception would probably be less able to survive than those with a larger range of color perception, and may have been weeded out. I don't even know how evolution would build a black-and-white eye anyway. A color eye may be easier to build.
In fact, while there are a lot of colors that we see, there are many that we are missing out on. We only see a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum. In fact the bug spectrum is a little shifted so they can see a different set of colors that humans cannot. Many flowers have ultraviolet features that humans cannot see but bugs can.
Take a look at this link.
Ultraviolet Flowers: Potentilla anserina
So why didn't evolution allow us to see all colors? I don't know. There might be some natural selection reason. Evolution is not perfect anyway.
Whether something tastes good or bad depends on how your tastebuds are set. Your tastebuds could have been set to find puke good tasting. That is what apparently what happened to my dog. If your tastebugs were set so you found water nasty, you probably wouldn't drink much of it and would be less likely to survive and pass on you genes. So evolution would weed you out and select those who thought water tasted good.
Many organisms actually don't have consciousness because they don't need it in their ecological nickes or the energy of producing it is just not worth the benefits (bacteria, trees, algea). For mammals and the ecological niches we are in, it is a necessity for survival. When you are self-aware, can see, reason, and sense things in the world, you have a far better chance of surviving. In fact, human intelligence is what made the human race so successful in this evolutionary fight for survival.
I don't agree. In fact I am going to accuse the human race of plagarism.
I do actually. I believe that the human race came about by a natural process and we are descended from some super-simple bacteria-like organism in an organic soup billions of years ago. I do not think we came about by some loving creator.
You need to watch the twilight zone episode, "Eye of the beholder." It may be on youtube or you could do the honest thing and buy it. It only about 30 minutes long and is a real hit.
The main quote from this episode is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So beauty is not an objective thing but is quite subjective. I have wondered how pigs could ever be attracted to each other when they are so ugly. The reason for this is that the way we judge appearance depends on how our brain and emotions are wired. So humans are set to like certain anatomical traits. Why do (most) men like breasts? They are simply lumps of fat on the chest. The reason for this is that our emotions are telling us what to like. It is almost impossible for me to mentally force myself to not like them because of the emotional framework I am given from birth.
The brains of pigs tell them to like a different set of anatomical traits. Female peacocks like guys with large colorful feathery tails. Human females would be freaked out by a guy with a big feathery tail. It all depends on the emotional and mental framework you are in. So if we were given monster faces, we would probably be put in an emotional framework in which monster faces were attractive. I'm betting that to pigs we do have monster faces!
Well, beings with such limited color perception would probably be less able to survive than those with a larger range of color perception, and may have been weeded out. I don't even know how evolution would build a black-and-white eye anyway. A color eye may be easier to build.
In fact, while there are a lot of colors that we see, there are many that we are missing out on. We only see a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum. In fact the bug spectrum is a little shifted so they can see a different set of colors that humans cannot. Many flowers have ultraviolet features that humans cannot see but bugs can.
Take a look at this link.
Ultraviolet Flowers: Potentilla anserina
So why didn't evolution allow us to see all colors? I don't know. There might be some natural selection reason. Evolution is not perfect anyway.
Whether something tastes good or bad depends on how your tastebuds are set. Your tastebuds could have been set to find puke good tasting. That is what apparently what happened to my dog. If your tastebugs were set so you found water nasty, you probably wouldn't drink much of it and would be less likely to survive and pass on you genes. So evolution would weed you out and select those who thought water tasted good.
Many organisms actually don't have consciousness because they don't need it in their ecological nickes or the energy of producing it is just not worth the benefits (bacteria, trees, algea). For mammals and the ecological niches we are in, it is a necessity for survival. When you are self-aware, can see, reason, and sense things in the world, you have a far better chance of surviving. In fact, human intelligence is what made the human race so successful in this evolutionary fight for survival.
I don't agree. In fact I am going to accuse the human race of plagarism.
Landerage
Araknor
very wrong morality, the religion I folow and found the most authetic in scriptures, and the most logical for my mind is Islam, and Islam only asks for killing if the other side did. In Islam it's an eye for an eye, and everyone seek towards religion but never establish it 100% I dont think anyone who blows a mosque, or any civilian building or hurt an innocent person even if it was atheist is right. And Islam doesn't call for that, killing of atheists is done in cases if they spread corruption in the community or divide muslims. If you read more in Islamic history, ull find that muslims gave christians protection in exchange of a small fee for those who can, and christians offered half their fortunes for muslims when they were in a crisis to help out. As of what your saying doesn't come close to religion, it's people applying it. Even if all humanity applies false religion that doesn't mean that the religion core is corrupted or spread intolerance or whatever else. Unfortunately nowadays nobody ever applies the authentic laws not even in Saudi Arabia which contains the most sacred place for Islam. I wont go further with this about religion but be assured it's part laid on media, part laid on people that makes religion looks wrong.
ull never understand unless u try...
Landerage
Araknor
apardon me on that one, I shouldn't have used that term may God forgive me.
At first I wanted those places to exist, then I needed them to exist, and now I have faith they exist, it's not about knowledge it's about having faith...
What you mean by I am no one? I am a human being and Im free to say whatever I want as long as it dont trespass anyone's privacy or freedom. It was a friendly advice ... Im not here to teach anyone anything, im just advicing because some people that were lost might need that just like I needed when I was lost but thank Lord I am on the right path as I beleive (personal opinion) If nobody wana take that advice that's his own problem, not like I will gain anything out of it
outhouse
Atheistically
exactly, it requires faith. No alive person will ever see either of these two mythical places.
it wasnt a insult at all brother landerage
its just you are not one to dictate or tell others how to be or act or live because your particular religion says that may be the rigt way.
do you have any "real" proof of creation??
Landerage
Araknor
still that doesn't disprove anything (u said "I beleive" )
I think, and many philosophers agree, that beauty is universal. So a painting of picasso is beautiful in quite the work, the technic, the message and all nobody can say it's not beautiful... So let's say someone is looking at one of the great paintings of nudes, and this guy had a sexual feeling looking at it, this person is not in status of judging the beauty of that piece, but it should be personal-emotion-free when concerned to judging and many philosophers agree with that. Now do I like a diet coke or a regular one that's not beauty it's like or dislike. but I really can't see the relation to the thread topic... Nobody who fully understood how the human body works would find it ugly.. in those matters i dont find it very subjective (again if judged without having personal emotions), the beauty of the sunrise and sunset etc...
Interesting opinion but I really dont know what that got to do with creationism vs evolution ;S but got some things to say: well human do have pretty faces that each is very different then the other and that is needed for a good social life I dont know if that can be called coincidence too for some, relating that to creatonism I dont know why an apple fits perfectely in a human's hand like if someone crafted it to match but maybe evolution can explain I dont know much about this
Good reasoning, but in fact speaking from a religious point of view, God did tell us he created things we see and things we dont see, and ultraviolet and infrared colors might be those things to confirm what he said. And adding more to it, that it is said that our bodies gets replaced in the afterlife in order to see things more beautifuly and feel things better, and a secret to hide those colors could be to make us wonder about this.
I asked that question on another thread, about why an apple taste so good to humans, aswell as the other fruits but the guy there didn't give me an answer, im still looking for information but haven't found anything useful or answering the question. What I had in mind is that how can evolution know what taste good for humans and based on that create an apple that taste good for human's ? Dont that need two seperate time frame, one to create a human and see wat taste good and bad, and another to create an apple and match the taste together? I wish if you have any knowledge or where to go about this matter to enlighten me.
still that doesn't disprove anything (u said "I beleive" )
I think, and many philosophers agree, that beauty is universal. So a painting of picasso is beautiful in quite the work, the technic, the message and all nobody can say it's not beautiful... So let's say someone is looking at one of the great paintings of nudes, and this guy had a sexual feeling looking at it, this person is not in status of judging the beauty of that piece, but it should be personal-emotion-free when concerned to judging and many philosophers agree with that. Now do I like a diet coke or a regular one that's not beauty it's like or dislike. but I really can't see the relation to the thread topic... Nobody who fully understood how the human body works would find it ugly.. in those matters i dont find it very subjective (again if judged without having personal emotions), the beauty of the sunrise and sunset etc...
Interesting opinion but I really dont know what that got to do with creationism vs evolution ;S but got some things to say: well human do have pretty faces that each is very different then the other and that is needed for a good social life I dont know if that can be called coincidence too for some, relating that to creatonism I dont know why an apple fits perfectely in a human's hand like if someone crafted it to match but maybe evolution can explain I dont know much about this
Landerage
Araknor
Good reasoning, but in fact speaking from a religious point of view, God did tell us he created things we see and things we dont see, and ultraviolet and infrared colors might be those things to confirm what he said. And adding more to it, that it is said that our bodies gets replaced in the afterlife in order to see things more beautifuly and feel things better, and a secret to hide those colors could be to make us wonder about this.
I asked that question on another thread, about why an apple taste so good to humans, aswell as the other fruits but the guy there didn't give me an answer, im still looking for information but haven't found anything useful or answering the question. What I had in mind is that how can evolution know what taste good for humans and based on that create an apple that taste good for human's ? Dont that need two seperate time frame, one to create a human and see wat taste good and bad, and another to create an apple and match the taste together? I wish if you have any knowledge or where to go about this matter to enlighten me.
I can't argue on that, I know it's true, still doesn't disprove that God exists though. Well I know that a human being genetical information and a kind of apes differs by 1% and evolution might have evolved the comon ancestor of a human and this kind of apes and the result was a new specie of conscious human and as such tdisprove that human was created directely by God as I know and descended to Earth, but still not a prove for me because religion says otherwise, although this is quite convincing but still what I found in religion was more convincing.
I understand that point, we can't argue about it but as for me the way to overcome it was mostly religion and what it had to offer and not finding a prove that would disagree with it
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
And that would include what? Telling people "I am an atheist and here's why"? Setting up a meeting of atheists? Talking to a Muslim about atheism?
And you see that as a good thing? "We'll help you out, but only if you pay"?
So what you're saying is, when evaluating a religion, we shouldn't consider how it makes its believers behave? You don't really believe that, do you?Even if all humanity applies false religion that doesn't mean that the religion core is corrupted or spread intolerance or whatever else. Unfortunately nowadays nobody ever applies the authentic laws not even in Saudi Arabia which contains the most sacred place for Islam. I wont go further with this about religion but be assured it's part laid on media, part laid on people that makes religion looks wrong.