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Creationist evidence...

Landerage

Araknor
Well if creationism isn't true, that mean life have no value and our existence is meaningless so why live it anyways ? People, believing in a creator or not are somewhat forced to live because life is in us. The first pulse of life nobody know how it happened and evolution can never know, but I do know that saying creationism is ridicule, it's same as saying that a smile is a bunch of muscle contractions, that a baby's laugh means nothing but a bunch of years of evolution, that a human's tear is equal to a smile and feelings is nothing and life is nothing but chemical and biological events. But what I don't understand why those who think that prefer to live then dying ? Don't evolution theory takes out all values of life ? And what we live is simply a big lie? What reason does evolution supporters have to keep on living ?
 

camanintx

Well-Known Member
Well if creationism isn't true, that mean life have no value and our existence is meaningless so why live it anyways ?
Speak for yourself. I am perfectly able to give value and meaning to my life without it being imposed by a creator.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Well if creationism isn't true, that mean life have no value and our existence is meaningless so why live it anyways ....

It is a shame that their are actually people who need this kind of "creator" affirmation in order to have any sort of meaning in their lives.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Well if creationism isn't true, that mean life have no value and our existence is meaningless so why live it anyways ?

What value or meaning does a belief in Creationism automatically assign to life? All the creation story does is attempt to explain where life came from. There is no inherent purpose proposed to any of it.

All the creation myth says is that God created life, it never tells us why.

People, believing in a creator or not are somewhat forced to live because life is in us.

No one is forced to live. People can and do decide not to all the time.

The first pulse of life nobody know how it happened and evolution can never know, but I do know that saying creationism is ridicule, it's same as saying that a smile is a bunch of muscle contractions, that a baby's laugh means nothing but a bunch of years of evolution, that a human's tear is equal to a smile and feelings is nothing and life is nothing but chemical and biological events.

You're acting as if creationism is the only possible philosophical or theological explanation for existence or the inherent value thereof and that if anyone doesn't subscribe to it they must be an nihilist by default.

This is an incredibly narrow and false perspective. Not only does it discount every other religion, theology, and philosophy mankind has ever come up with, it completely disregards the value of, or the ability to appreciate, the subject experience of life itself.

Expressed this way Creationism comes across as a codified form of personality disorder.

But what I don't understand why those who think that prefer to live then dying ?

If someone needs permission from something written in a book in order to experience value or meaning in life, I could understand why they would be baffled by the lack of this need in other people. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that, if it needs to be explained, couldn't be explained effectively.

Don't evolution theory takes out all values of life ?

No. The ToE says nothing about the value or meaning of life one way or the other.

And what we live is simply a big lie?

A big lie in what sense?

What reason does evolution supporters have to keep on living ?

The same as anybody else.
 

Dan4reason

Facts not Faith
My goal is to sift throught the evidence for creation.

Ok... I googled "evidence for creation." I click on the first link on the list.
Evidence for Creation
Nothing good. I click on the next one.
Evidence for Creation
That link is better. Lets see what it says.
The first section is the male-female problem.
If an animal mates with a member of another species, the result will be a sterile creature. If two members of the same species reproduces, and produce an abnormal offspring (mutant), it is also sterile. So mutations cause sterility. So how can evolution happen if creatures with new genetic information cannot reproduce and so are given a death sentence by natural selection?

I found this link which says that we have 100-200 mutations per person. Are we all sterile now?
First direct measurement of human genetic mutation rate | Wellcome Trust
I want to back this link up though.
Talkorigins says 50-100 mutations.
Are Mutations Harmful?
Nature magazine says 100-200 too.
Human mutation rate revealed : Nature News

So, no. Mutations don't make everybody sterile.
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
Well if creationism isn't true, that mean life have no value and our existence is meaningless so why live it anyways ?

Kinda sad that without a creator you can't find a purpose to live. I'm sorry for you and I expect you will never become atheist and commit sucicide.

Also, I think it is better to live than to die, isn't it? However if the afterlife is paradise, why don't we kill ourselves right now? It sounds pretty coherent due to christian logic. If you are intelligent, you will do it. But please tell us first so we can pray for you.

People, believing in a creator or not are somewhat forced to live because life is in us. The first pulse of life nobody know how it happened and evolution can never know, but I do know that saying creationism is ridicule, it's same as saying that a smile is a bunch of muscle contractions, that a baby's laugh means nothing but a bunch of years of evolution, that a human's tear is equal to a smile and feelings is nothing and life is nothing but chemical and biological events.

Are you stating that chemical and biological events are "nothing" and aren't beautiful?:sarcastic

But what I don't understand why those who think that prefer to live then dying ? Don't evolution theory takes out all values of life ?

No, it don't. But fortunately, it takes out all values of religion.

And what we live is simply a big lie?

If you live thinking that you will go to heaven, then I think that you are actualy living a lie, yes.

What reason does evolution supporters have to keep on living ?

Chocolate, sex, luxury and drugs. :cool:
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
The first pulse of life nobody know how it happened and evolution can never know,

do you understand what evolution is...

here i'll help you out. it's the development of biology.
there is overwhelming evidence that supports evolution. there is no evidence that supports creation...
evolution is not about the beginning but it's about how biology has evolved.

if you take your children to the dr, you're contradicting the idea you adhere to that knowledge of biology and the advances of the study of evolution has been a lie. because at the end of the day, without the study of evolution there wouldn't be those medical breakthroughs that have enabled the medical community to find ways to help you and yours...so i think you should think twice about what it is you are saying.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Well if creationism isn't true, that mean life have no value and our existence is meaningless so why live it anyways ? People, believing in a creator or not are somewhat forced to live because life is in us. The first pulse of life nobody know how it happened and evolution can never know, but I do know that saying creationism is ridicule, it's same as saying that a smile is a bunch of muscle contractions, that a baby's laugh means nothing but a bunch of years of evolution, that a human's tear is equal to a smile and feelings is nothing and life is nothing but chemical and biological events. But what I don't understand why those who think that prefer to live then dying ? Don't evolution theory takes out all values of life ? And what we live is simply a big lie? What reason does evolution supporters have to keep on living ?
I would be so sad to go through life not appreciating the beauty of the world around me for it's own sake.

To not be able to find meaning in my life without a book to give it to me.... to not find joy or comfort in my mate or my child's presence, just because I love them and they are with me.

To think that such misery exists in this world..... because a "kind and loving" god thinks that it will teach us a lesson.

This, to me, is true sadness.

wa:do
 

Dan4reason

Facts not Faith
Well if creationism isn't true, that mean life have no value and our existence is meaningless so why live it anyways ? People, believing in a creator or not are somewhat forced to live because life is in us. The first pulse of life nobody know how it happened and evolution can never know, but I do know that saying creationism is ridicule, it's same as saying that a smile is a bunch of muscle contractions, that a baby's laugh means nothing but a bunch of years of evolution, that a human's tear is equal to a smile and feelings is nothing and life is nothing but chemical and biological events. But what I don't understand why those who think that prefer to live then dying ? Don't evolution theory takes out all values of life ? And what we live is simply a big lie? What reason does evolution supporters have to keep on living ?

As you just guessed, meaning and purpose are not objective things. They only exist in the emotional framework of humans and animals. They are the result of chemical reactions in our bodies and our brains. However, I exist in this emotional framework of emotion and purpose, so yes, purpose and meaning are very real things to me whether I like it or not and I am trapped in this framework. I am fine with it. I like the things I feel in life. Love and pizza being the most pleasing.

It is so improbable that you exist today. It could have been so easy for one of your ancestor to die before producing you. It could have been so easy for evolution to go in a different direction. It could have been so easy for someone else to be produced in your parent's reproduction, with a different sperm meeting a different egg. One of your ancestors may not have taken the mate he/she did. Earth may not have formed in the exact way it did.

So you are so very lucky to exist at all. You are even luckier that you exist with the capacity to feel joy, in a world with all sorts of cool things and experiences are at your fingertips. Many organisms don't have emotion so you are very lucky. You are also lucky in that you are human and can reason, to make intelligent choices. You could have just as easily been born a lizard a slave to your emotions and instincts. You are even luckier in that you are born in a first-world country so you are not fighting for survival. You have have wonderful-tasting food, showers, a toilet, a warm place to live it, and don't have to work yourself to death all day in the fields.

The only problem is that you only have 77 years to live. After that, you are gone forever. So being as lucky as you are to be alive in such a wonderful life, but with only a short time to enjoy it, why would you spoil your temporary priviledged by being depressed and killing yourself because your species came about through a random process? No offence, but that is just so cosmically idiotic. Life is something to be cherished and lived to its fullness.
 

Landerage

Araknor
Speak for yourself. I am perfectly able to give value and meaning to my life without it being imposed by a creator.
I did ask you what meaning does life have if there is no creator ? I really like to know how non beleivers are able to neglect the fact that death is coming one day and that it all ends there , kinda creepy for me but what's the point of living then ?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I did ask you what meaning does life have if there is no creator ? I really like to know how non beleivers are able to neglect the fact that death is coming one day and that it all ends there , kinda creepy for me but what's the point of living then ?

neglect...hmmm. are you insinuating that atheists are paying little or no attention to the inevitable? no i think you are really off base here.
as far as i am concerned, it is because i know life is short that i try to not take life for granted.
living for the after life seems to diminish the importance of the here and now...
well, that's how i see it.
 

Landerage

Araknor
What value or meaning does a belief in Creationism automatically assign to life? All the creation story does is attempt to explain where life came from. There is no inherent purpose proposed to any of it.

All the creation myth says is that God created life, it never tells us why.



No one is forced to live. People can and do decide not to all the time.



You're acting as if creationism is the only possible philosophical or theological explanation for existence or the inherent value thereof and that if anyone doesn't subscribe to it they must be an nihilist by default.

This is an incredibly narrow and false perspective. Not only does it discount every other religion, theology, and philosophy mankind has ever come up with, it completely disregards the value of, or the ability to appreciate, the subject experience of life itself.

Expressed this way Creationism comes across as a codified form of personality disorder.



If someone needs permission from something written in a book in order to experience value or meaning in life, I could understand why they would be baffled by the lack of this need in other people. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that, if it needs to be explained, couldn't be explained effectively.



No. The ToE says nothing about the value or meaning of life one way or the other.



A big lie in what sense?



The same as anybody else.
The most important aspect of supporting creationism, is the fact there is an afterlife and life is only to fufill the requirements for accessing a good destiny in the afterlife (personal opinion of course) but if life didn't mean anything for me, why would I go to school, or work or do all those things if being alive or dead is same thing for oneself? Personlay I find no happiness in that.

I understand some people suicide, but those are a well small minority who endured most of the time great issues, however a majority supporting evolution, still continue to live, and personaly I think they are waiting for someone to tell them that the evolution theory is not true. because nobody likes to beleive it however science facts does support it so far. I would love to ask if in each one's personal opinion, do you prefer to have a creator who judges things right, or to like evolution and act as if life is normal and all is good? (im asking about what do each of you feel, not scientific facts or anything) because personaly If I wasn't a beleiver in creationism, I would really feel very sad that this world going to a certain end of death, and I would love if creationism was true. I know this is out of topic but I just wana know what each feel about it.

It's true there are other theological reasonings, such that after death oneself might be living someone else's life etc... but it goes back to the same point that ownself consciousness gets deleted after death and for my humble opinion remove the value of oneself which I find depressing. Not sure about other ideologies.
For me, creationism explains an afterlife, so beleiving in any sort of after death experience other then this life, I would also consider it a support for creationism because if life ends then another thing starts that mean there is a linker to all those events in a person's life, which might be a supernatural force that set this up for each being, and It kinda confirm creationism too. So evolution says after death it's all over, what would oneself experience in life mean then for oneself? I understand some great scientists, artists... might still have helped mankind even after death but for oneself doesn't it all end after death said by evolution?

I dont know if your implying to the Gospel, Thorat and Qur'an for the books, but I did find the answer I needed from the Qur'an that doesn't fully reject evolution but supports creationism aswell, and made perfect sense in my mind.

Personaly I think evolution doesn't disprove creationism, I mean if there was a creator, would you think that he creates the same way as humans do? So to build a building he stack bricks together etc..? I think evolution is the tool for the creator and mutations even if they look random for us, does happen in an organised way guided by the creator, and religion is here to tell us that. So instead of going towards death empty handed, I chose to folow a religion and have some backup in my soul.
 

Landerage

Araknor
Kinda sad that without a creator you can't find a purpose to live. I'm sorry for you and I expect you will never become atheist and commit sucicide.

Also, I think it is better to live than to die, isn't it? However if the afterlife is paradise, why don't we kill ourselves right now? It sounds pretty coherent due to christian logic. If you are intelligent, you will do it. But please tell us first so we can pray for you.



Are you stating that chemical and biological events are "nothing" and aren't beautiful?:sarcastic



No, it don't. But fortunately, it takes out all values of religion.



If you live thinking that you will go to heaven, then I think that you are actualy living a lie, yes.



Chocolate, sex, luxury and drugs. :cool:
(sorry i still dont know how to multiquote properly)
Dont be sorry I know exactely where I am going, in fact I only debate and post around here for enlightement.
I dont know, maybe living is better if you have a good life. Islam forbids killing oneself, or even wishing for death of oneself, our souls aren't our owns and killing oneself is same as killing another person, that's why tatoo isn't allowed, plastic surgeries not recommanded because it's changing our body which isn't ours but God gave it to us to take care of it (eating healthy, exercicing etc..) I dont like your sarcasm but i dont care *putting that behind my back *

No im saying that even those events are quite incredible, and humans spend alot of time to study them, but I find it weird to beleive that w're all that and not a soul and body embodiement.

I dont think you can disprove the existence of heavan, so your statement is a lie, until you have a prove or what so ever and youll never have a prove, dont say lies that you have no clue about and have more respect towards those who does beleive it. What I said was a question and not a statement and you didnt answer it.

Yep exactely the answer I wanted to hear, w're hear to have fun and sing music. Philosophicaly speaking, everything that is not a human need such as fun, luxury, and all sort of things are adopted by humans to avoid thinking of death. No creature but humans know they are going to die.
 

Landerage

Araknor
do you understand what evolution is...

here i'll help you out. it's the development of biology.
there is overwhelming evidence that supports evolution. there is no evidence that supports creation...
evolution is not about the beginning but it's about how biology has evolved.

if you take your children to the dr, you're contradicting the idea you adhere to that knowledge of biology and the advances of the study of evolution has been a lie. because at the end of the day, without the study of evolution there wouldn't be those medical breakthroughs that have enabled the medical community to find ways to help you and yours...so i think you should think twice about what it is you are saying.
exactely that's why i dont think evolution disprove creationism
 

Landerage

Araknor
I would be so sad to go through life not appreciating the beauty of the world around me for it's own sake.

To not be able to find meaning in my life without a book to give it to me.... to not find joy or comfort in my mate or my child's presence, just because I love them and they are with me.

To think that such misery exists in this world..... because a "kind and loving" god thinks that it will teach us a lesson.

This, to me, is true sadness.

wa:do

Idk why humans have such a high pride in themselve, to say that one book can't guide all humanity, it's human ego that doesn't serve good.

What you said isn't disagreeing with the fact that you beleive a human being is biological creature who love and does all that great things in life then simply is doomed to death and forgotten a few years after.
 

Landerage

Araknor
As you just guessed, meaning and purpose are not objective things. They only exist in the emotional framework of humans and animals. They are the result of chemical reactions in our bodies and our brains. However, I exist in this emotional framework of emotion and purpose, so yes, purpose and meaning are very real things to me whether I like it or not and I am trapped in this framework. I am fine with it. I like the things I feel in life. Love and pizza being the most pleasing.

It is so improbable that you exist today. It could have been so easy for one of your ancestor to die before producing you. It could have been so easy for evolution to go in a different direction. It could have been so easy for someone else to be produced in your parent's reproduction, with a different sperm meeting a different egg. One of your ancestors may not have taken the mate he/she did. Earth may not have formed in the exact way it did.

So you are so very lucky to exist at all. You are even luckier that you exist with the capacity to feel joy, in a world with all sorts of cool things and experiences are at your fingertips. Many organisms don't have emotion so you are very lucky. You are also lucky in that you are human and can reason, to make intelligent choices. You could have just as easily been born a lizard a slave to your emotions and instincts. You are even luckier in that you are born in a first-world country so you are not fighting for survival. You have have wonderful-tasting food, showers, a toilet, a warm place to live it, and don't have to work yourself to death all day in the fields.

The only problem is that you only have 77 years to live. After that, you are gone forever. So being as lucky as you are to be alive in such a wonderful life, but with only a short time to enjoy it, why would you spoil your temporary priviledged by being depressed and killing yourself because your species came about through a random process? No offence, but that is just so cosmically idiotic. Life is something to be cherished and lived to its fullness.
I understand your opinion, but I wanted to add somethign to my opinion, we all know everything exists in a certain time and a certain space, but I do know that the opposite for everything might exist too, and I beleive there is an out of time, and out of space domain. So I beleive that in the out of time the Creator knows where all this ends up, and everything is meant to be happening because he planned it, and what might seem random for us, and happening in a coincidences, might be the very way that the Creator does things and what a beautiful way it is. So in my opinion you dont contradict creationism. And one of the reasons I based on in my beleif, was the many possibilities that could have happened if this element didnt do that, and that didnt do this, like us having monster faces, or seeing in white and black only, or water have a bad taste, or no conscious to realise what's going on, which made me admire how well life is, and the beautiful things you said, and made me beleive that outside time, someone planned it and knows where all this is going to.
 
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