Quran Burning

[jarofthoughts]

I tried to find a tread about this topic, but since I was unable to I decided to start on of my own. If a tread already exists covering this feel free to merge them.



Let me just state right off the bat that I do not in any way agree with Pastor Terry Jones and that I in fact think he is a nut-case.

However, the response, an attack on a UN office in Afghanistan killing at least 7 people is under any circumstance completely unacceptable.
I am well aware that this type of behaviour is not condoned by anyone but a very small minority of Muslims around the globe and I am also aware that the vast majority of Muslims never hurt anyone.

Still, there is one thing that needs to be said, and it is this;
Freedom of Speech, the individual's ability to express whatever they like about any idea, religion or organisation they like supersedes ANY consideration for religion.
If people wanted they should be able to draw nasty pictures of whichever prophet they liked and burn huge bonfires of so called holy books (or any other book or text for that matter) every day of every week and no violent action, imprisonment or similar should to be allowed by anyone as a response anywhere.

Freedom of Speech is more important than any religion or religious idea in the world and that is something that the religious fundamentalists must and shall accept whether they like it or not.
And if they choose the path of violence, the path of force, they should not be surprised if the answer they get is also one of violence and force, and I guarantee that that is a battle they will lose.

That is my stance, plain and simple.

Responses?




Florida pastor oversees Quran burning - USATODAY.com

Afghans angry at Quran burning kill 7 at UN office - Yahoo! News

 

[Revoltingest]

Response:
I share your dismay.

 

[darkendless]

For the record burning a Quran is idiotic, as is burning any book.

However it disgusts me that the west cowers with fear every time nut-case idiots from the muslim religion come out and threaten death.

Its not as though western religions or anyone other than Islam has a cry every time they're offended by another religion.

If muslims don't like pictures/ cartoons or south park using their prophet for entertainment, don't ****ing read/ watch it, its not hard.

 

[Pegg]

Freedom of Speech is more important than any religion or religious idea in the world and that is something that the religious fundamentalists must and shall accept whether they like it or not.
And if they choose the path of violence, the path of force, they should not be surprised if the answer they get is also once of violence and force, and I guarantee that that is a battle they will lose.

That is my stance, plain and simple.

Responses?


Florida pastor oversees Quran burning - USATODAY.com

Afghans angry at Quran burning kill 7 at UN office - Yahoo! News

with freedom comes responsiblity and the responsibility is to behave in a manner worthy of the high ideals of freedom

there is no point to freedom if it means anyone can do as they please and use their freedom to demean and belittle others. It is also the course of wisdom to let 'sleeping dogs lay' as the saying goes...why provoke someone to anger in the name of ones freedom?

 

[darkendless]

with freedom comes responsiblity and the responsibility is to behave in a manner worthy of the high ideals of freedom

there is no point to freedom if it means anyone can do as they please and use their freedom to demean and belittle others. It is also the course of wisdom to let 'sleeping dogs lay' as the saying goes...why provoke someone to anger in the name of ones freedom?

Its our right to say what we want.

If people are offended by it thats their problem not anyone elses.

 

[Pegg]

Its our right to say what we want.

If people are offended by it thats their problem not anyone elses.

it becomes everyones problem if the other party choose a course of retribution (which is permitted in the Quran btw)

 

[Bismillah]

First of all let's assume some context.

These people have not had a functioning government in decades and the civil war between the NWA (current corrupt government) and the Taliban (previous corrupt government) has resulted in a huge swath of armed, desensitized, violent young men used to solving their problems with bullets.

Literacy rates are abysmal, public education does not exist, civil infrastructure rates at a mud hut with a bucket for human waste.

I have read stories how people living four hours from each other, by car, had completely no contact with each other as one was held by the Taliban and the other by Karzai's "security forces". They are living in the dark ages in the most literal sense.
Oh did I forget how people have been invading their country since the time of Cyrus the Great and how the West in particular has resolved to keep that place in abject poverty? I'm sure the Kill team pictures showing just the latest Army cover up of their hand in civilian murder just set the mood.

So what DID any rational person think would happen? There is a difference between free speech and reckless endangerment IMO and there is a hard way to fix this problem (try and humanize people who are living lives that we cannot imagine) or stop some Dove Outreach "Father" from burning a set of books and setting the world on fire along with it.

Iam surprised someone did not see this coming.

 

[Bismillah]

(which is permitted in the Quran btw)

Where.

 

[darkendless]

it becomes everyones problem if the other party choose a course of retribution (which is permitted in the Quran btw)

Yes, their problem. It never solves anything though.

We are too weak to stand up to their threats, i despise it. We invade and occupy their countries and yet refuse to find and destroy the violent fundies who would murders civilians without consideration.

 

[jarofthoughts]

with freedom comes responsiblity and the responsibility is to behave in a manner worthy of the high ideals of freedom

there is no point to freedom if it means anyone can do as they please and use their freedom to demean and belittle others. It is also the course of wisdom to let 'sleeping dogs lay' as the saying goes...why provoke someone to anger in the name of ones freedom?

This:

Its our right to say what we want.

If people are offended by it thats their problem not anyone elses.

When I first read about the cartoons made of Mohammed I thought: "That was somewhat unnecessary and rude."
But after seeing the reactions they triggered I was convinced that the cartoons, and more like them, was in fact required to make these people understand that this is not a point we're willing to make concessions on.

I don't care how offensive you find my opinion.
You do -not- have the right to react with violence towards it.

And if you choose the path of violence you should be fully prepared for the retaliation of that response.
So, if these extremist groups feel like being bombed back to the stone-ages, they should by all means continue along this path.

Freedom of Speech will, shall and must trump any religious notions.

Period.

 

[jarofthoughts]

it becomes everyones problem if the other party choose a course of retribution (which is permitted in the Quran btw)

And if they choose the path of violence they should be prepared to be obliterated.
There is no Muslim nation or combination of nations that is even remotely a threat to neither the US nor the European nations.
That is a fact they should do well to consider.

 

[outhouse]

and how the West in particular has resolved to keep that place in abject poverty?

how so???

 

[Vinayaka]

Radicalism just breeds radicalism. Fundamentalism begets fundamentalism. A smarter approach is to ignore. A friend told me of a KKK rally in Kentucky a couple of years back. The single organizer went home after no one showed up. Why wave meat in front of a hungry dog, in front of yourself. It just riles them up.

 

[darkendless]

When I first read about the cartoons made of Mohammed I thought: "That was somewhat unnecessary and rude."
But after seeing the reactions they triggered I was convinced that the cartoons, and more like them, was in fact required to make these people understand that this is not a point we're willing to make concessions on.

I don't care how offensive you find my opinion.
You do -not- have the right to react with violence towards it.

And if you choose the path of violence you should be fully prepared for the retaliation of that response.
So, if these extremist groups feel like being bombed back to the stone-ages, they should by all means continue along this path.

Freedom of Speech will, shall and must trump any religious notions.

Period.

Exactly. They have an inflated ego if they think their Prophet is above opinion.

If they don't like the way the west operates and the offence it may cause them as a result, stay away and don't pay attention.

They're unnecessary to humanity if they react violently to such provocation and should be removed.

 

[Bismillah]

how so???

A continuous series of brutal wars and interventions do the trick to destroy any potential for Afghanistan from the get go.

Though I'll be the first to admit that Pakistan, KSA, and Iran also played their roles.

 

[Pegg]

Where.

Lex talionis in Islam

Main article: Qisas
In Islam, Muhammad revived the law of retaliation or lex talionis, best known from the formulation "an eye for an eye" in the Torah. Traditional Muslims who understand the Quran and the hadith (reports of Muhammad’s words and actions outside of the Quran) believe that Islamic law or sharia expresses the highest and best goals for all societies. It is the will of Allah.[citation needed]
And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allâh has revealed, such are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong¬doers - of a lesser degree). And in their footsteps, We sent 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurât (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurât (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2). (46) Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious disbelievers). (Quran 5:45-47)

 

[jarofthoughts]

First of all let's assume some context.

These people have not had a functioning government in decades and the civil war between the NWA (current corrupt government) and the Taliban (previous corrupt government) has resulted in a huge swath of armed, desensitized, violent young men used to solving their problems with bullets.

I am not usually condoning the use of violence, but if that is the only thing that get's through to these people, and if that is the path they have chosen, then so be it.

Oh did I forget how people have been invading their country since the time of Cyrus the Great and how the West in particular has resolved to keep that place in abject poverty? I'm sure the Kill team pictures showing just the latest Army cover up of their hand in civilian murder just set the mood.

I feel deeply sorry for the people of Afghanistan and I do not in any way defend the actions in which civilians have been killed either deliberately or through negligence. As I understand it these cases are being investigated and the people responsible will in all probability see the inside of a prison cell for a long time to come.

So what DID any rational person think would happen? There is a difference between free speech and reckless endangerment IMO and there is a hard way to fix this problem (try and humanize people who are living lives that we cannot imagine) or stop some Dove Outreach "Father" from burning a set of books and setting the world on fire along with it.

Iam surprised someone did not see this coming.

Seeing it coming and accepting it are two different things.
As mentioned in the OP I consider the pastor to be a nut-case himself, but I will defend his right to express his opinion in a non-violent matter to the bitter end.

It's just a book.
It is not worth taking someone's life over.

 

[outhouse]

A continuous series of brutal wars and interventions do the trick to destroy any potential for Afghanistan from the get go.

do you define how we helped them against the russians as "keep that place in abject poverty? "


im just trying to understand how you blaim the west for that poor countries issues

 

[jarofthoughts]

Radicalism just breeds radicalism. Fundamentalism begets fundamentalism. A smarter approach is to ignore. A friend told me of a KKK rally in Kentucky a couple of years back. The single organizer went home after no one showed up. Why wave meat in front of a hungry dog, in front of yourself. It just riles them up.

It is kinda hard to ignore the killing of innocents in order to defend some book.

It is my stance that these extremists must and will accept that Freedom of Speech trumps their religious notions, or, barring that, they will perish as a result of their violent ways.

 

[England my lionheart]

Though i think the Pastor and co are complete dimwits i agree that free speech is number one priority here,i also agree that religious movements should not recieve kid glove treatment.

Obviously chopping peoples heads of because someone burned a book on the other side of the world is unacceptable under any circumstance,in my country we've had Muslim demonstrations at Soldiers Funerals,burning Poppies on rememberance day,burning our flag but they are protected by the Law,religion sucks.