WARNING : ANTI-LDS PRETENDING TO BE LDS - Is there ANYTHING to be done about deceivers?

[Katzpur]

I know...I really am trying to convince myself to believe, I just dont know what I believe. I dont think I would classify myself just yet as a NOM, but I definetley am not a solid believer.

dallas, I've been thinking, and I owe you an apology. You're 18 years old, I guess, just a few months away from leaving on a mission you don't really want to go on, because you don't really know whether or not the Church is true. Your mom suffers from depression, and you can see how hard it would be if she were to know your true feelings. Your dad may not have long to live; you love him and don't want to disappoint him. And then I come on the scene... a total stranger who's old enough to be your grandmother, and call you a hypocrite. That was really a thoughtless, inconsiderate thing for me to say to you. I'm sorry. You have enough issues to be working through right now for somebody who doesn't even know you to be laying on the guilt. I hope you'll accept my apology.

 

[dallas1125]

dallas, I've been thinking, and I owe you an apology. You're 18 years old, I guess, just a few months away from leaving on a mission you don't really want to go on, because you don't really know whether or not the Church is true. Your mom suffers from depression, and you can see how hard that is on her. Your dad may not have long to live; you love him and don't want to disappoint him. And then I come on the scene... a total stranger who's old enough to be your grandmother, and call you a hypocrite. That was really a thoughtless, inconsiderate think for me to say to you. I'm sorry. You have enough issues to be working through right now for somebody who doesn't even know you to be laying on the guilt. I hope you'll accept my apology.

I accept the apology. But you did bring up a point I never even thought of. I just figured I could just pretend to keep everyone happy. What I never actualy considered about going on my mission and not believing, is that I would be preaching truth I dont believe. I never thought of it that way. In a way, im hoping that going on a mission will restore my faith. You know the saying, "I only converted one person, myself." That statement might be cheesy but I always thought that could be the answer I want. Anyways, Katzpur, I respect you and I understand what you were saying. You understand and believe in the theology and I really am happy for you. I have more to say, but I am afraid that this is starting to get too personal for a public thread.

 

[Gaura Priya]

They can. Don't tell me that you haven't figured out yet that I'm a little left of center myself.

Well, if you are a little left of the centre, then I'm wayyy off that circle!!

I do, too. I was taught from my earliest childhood to question. I can remember telling my dad things my Seminary teacher had said that struck me as not being "quite right." He would would just shake his head and roll his eyes and tell me I didn't have to believe everything I ever heard a Sunday School or Seminary teacher teach me. The freedom to question without feeling guilty was one of the best gifts he ever gave me. It's actually what has kept me in the Church. When I hear things that cause me to go, "Say what?!?!" and when I read less than flattering accounts of LDS history, I have consistently reminded myself that there is more than one version to every story. Yeah, there is the Sunday School version. Then there is the version put forth by people who have discovered that the Sunday School version omitted a few not-so-flattering facts. Then there is the truth. It usually falls somewhere in between, because it does include the not-so-flattering facts, but generally also provides other details (such as context, historical background, etc.) that make the not-so-flattering facts more understandable.

The Church is so full of things that happened that are interesting in itself, and for such reasons I am vying away from the Church moreso than coming closer to it. When I think of the ideas of polygamy (the FLDS are more faithful to the Doctrine and Covenants in this sense than us!), blood atonement, the sealings done between other men for Celestial kingdom building, that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks before this sudden ban over them (Brigham Young), that although women do not hold the priesthood, they still gave blessings, its history with doing very dangerous experiments to heterosexify homosexuals, etc. I have no idea what to think.

I feel that Church history manuals, although give a simple understanding, also censor the bad, seeing things that only are 'faith-promoting' and not objective enough.

Why is it that the greatest gift of a woman is Celestial Motherhood? Is that her only calling, to be a homemaker who bakes cookies and exemplifies feminine virtues, birthing eight children in this world, and submitting her very authority to a hierarchy of men? If the Church needs more missionaries, then why are women not called in this time of the latter days? As my friend told me, she would not convert to the Church knowing that her only call was to become a goddess and 'be eternally pregnant and birth spirit babies!'

Do you know what keeps me in the Church? It's the doctrines. It's the fact that I'm not asked to believe that "three are one and one is three, and yet one is not three and three are not one." It's the concept that God is not going to eternally torture someone for having had the misfortune to be born at the wrong time and in the wrong place. It's the belief that everybody who has ever lived is going to get a little more time to think things through after this relatively brief life is over. It's the conviction that when I finally get to Heaven, I'm going to be met by my parents, sister, husband, kids (and, God willing, my pets), and that they are going to be real, flesh and bones individuals I can throw my arms around. Where would I go to find those doctrines if it were not for my Church? I'd have literally nowhere to go without those beliefs.

Of course, the Gospel Truths will always ring high. And that is how I read the Scriptures... I really like how the Community of Christ says that they are 'one true church' and not the 'one and only true church.' The Book of Mormon doctrines are so simple: repent, believe in Christ, be baptised in his name, and follow his commandments. Anything else is just an addition to build our testimonies in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. For me, to be a Latter Day Saint is to testify that Jesus is the Christ, and he calls us to build communities of love, peace and joy, bringing a Heaven on Earth, even Zion!

 

[Pegg]

Basically it is someone who no longer believes in any or some of the claims made by the LDS church yet for whatever reason chooses to stay involved some way.

why stay in a religion if you dont believe it?

 

[dallas1125]

why stay in a religion if you dont believe it?

Umm, did you read this thread?

 

[Commoner]

Basically, someone who pretends to be mormon to avoid any complications.

For example, If I decided not to be mormon (living in Idao/Utah) I would basically put myself in exile. My dad would disown me, my mom would probably go back into depression. A lot of my friends would criticize me. It would just be better to be a undercover whatever.

Be comforted by the fact that a whole bunch of other people are basically in the same situation as you are and are unable to be honest about how they feel or what they believe.

 

[zomg]

Clear, you can deny that the temple included an oath of vengence all you want. Doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Dallas, I'd hate to be in your shoes. I guess no one wants a missionary who says "I believe the BOM to be true" instead of "I KNOW with every fiber of my being the BOM is true". I'm not going to tell you what decision to make. I went when I was older (23) and had a good time. I knew some of what I know now about LDS history...minus a few details. If I'd known then what I do now there is no way I would have been able to go with a clear conscience.

If you go, I support your decision. If you stay, I support your decision

 

[Katzpur]

The Church is so full of things that happened that are interesting in itself, and for such reasons I am vying away from the Church moreso than coming closer to it.

Well, you know as well as I do that it doesn't really matter in your case. You're not LDS now and you are unlikely to ever be LDS.

When I think of the ideas of polygamy (the FLDS are more faithful to the Doctrine and Covenants in this sense than us!)

... No, they aren't, because the Church was, from its very beginnings, built upon a belief in continued revelation. The FLDS deny that God ever said that plural marriage should be discontinued, and therefore do not accept the revelation given to Wilford Woodruff. Plural marriage is to be practiced when the Lord authorizes it and only then. The Book of Mormon makes that clear and the Doctrine and Covenants does not contradict it.

blood atonement...

Not doctrinal -- ever. Not an issue.

the sealings done between other men for Celestial kingdom building...

Say what?

that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks before this sudden ban over them (Brigham Young)...

That's right, he did.

that although women do not hold the priesthood, they still gave blessings...

Women exercise priesthood authority in the Temple today.

its history with doing very dangerous experiments to heterosexify homosexuals, etc.

Shock therapy, while probably completely useless when done for this purpose, is practiced by the medical community for a variety of purposes all the time.

I have no idea what to think.

And it really doesn't matter what you think, does it?

I feel that Church history manuals, although give a simple understanding, also censor the bad, seeing things that only are 'faith-promoting' and not objective enough.

Yes, they do.

Why is it that the greatest gift of a woman is Celestial Motherhood?

Maybe for the same reason that the greatest gift of a man is celestial fatherhood.

Is that her only calling, to be a homemaker who bakes cookies and exemplifies feminine virtues, birthing eight children in this world, and submitting her very authority to a hierarchy of men?

Not even close.

If the Church needs more missionaries, then why are women not called in this time of the latter days?

Excuse me?

As my friend told me, she would not convert to the Church knowing that her only call was to become a goddess and 'be eternally pregnant and birth spirit babies!'

Obviously your friend didn't know jack about what her calling was. And with her attitude, she certainly wouldn't have to worry about becoming a goddess.

Of course, the Gospel Truths will always ring high. And that is how I read the Scriptures... I really like how the Community of Christ says that they are 'one true church' and not the 'one and only true church.'

Do you? Maybe you could explain how it could be "one true church" while teaching doctrines which are in direct opposition to "another true church."

The Book of Mormon doctrines are so simple: repent, believe in Christ, be baptised in his name, and follow his commandments. Anything else is just an addition to build our testimonies in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.

That sounds list a pretty good assessment to me.

For me, to be a Latter Day Saint is to testify that Jesus is the Christ, and he calls us to build communities of love, peace and joy, bringing a Heaven on Earth, even Zion!

Yes, to you that's what it means, but to a Latter-day Saint, it means more. It means that Jesus Christ established His Church during His ministry, that after the deaths of His authorized servants, men changed it, and that He has re-established it in these latter days. The gospel of Jesus Christ does encompass the things you mentioned, but it encompasses much, much more.

 

[madhatter85]

It is truly amazing how many fair-weather Mormons are on this forum. It is sad really and shameful that they would even call themselves Mormons. It's gives us a bad name I think.

Sorry if that offends anyone but man..... All i can think is "really??"

 

[dallas1125]

It is truly amazing how many fair-weather Mormons are on this forum. It is sad really and shameful that they would even call themselves Mormons. It's gives us a bad name I think.

Sorry if that offends anyone but man..... All i can think is "really??"

Not to be offensive, but it was this kind of attitude that is driving me away from the church.

 

[madhatter85]

Not to be offensive, but it was this kind of attitude that is driving me away from the church.

The reason I think that is because there are so many things that we have seen and done that are nothing short of miracles. How can anyone who has seen these things deny the power of God? Time after time again I have seen the blessings that resulted from faith not just in my own life but in others as well. I went inactive when i turned 17 and came back in 2007. I have seen nothing but good come into my life since I returned and the entire time I was inactive there was nothing but sorrow. At my lowest time I was living on my firend's couch, my car had just been reposessed and I literally owned nothing but what was in a few boxes. Once I got active again in church and started putting my life together and seeing the blessings that come from paying tithing and following the gospel. for instance, my wife and I were both working, not paying tithing, month after month we went into the hole and never had any money to do anything. The decision to start paying tithing did not come easy. but we did it, and at the same time My wife stopped working to be a stay-at-home mother. But somehow we never went into the hole again. We always had money to take care of everything that needed to be taken care of. Sure we didn't have a ton of money to go to the movies or whatever but we were always taken care of. I know the power of the atonement is real because it has brought so much peace into my life. I hope that you can feel the same thing one day.

Ether 4:15

Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

 

[dallas1125]

The reason I think that is because there are so many things that we have seen and done that are nothing short of miracles. How can anyone who has seen these things deny the power of God? Time after time again I have seen the blessings that resulted from faith not just in my own life but in others as well. I went inactive when i turned 17 and came back in 2007. I have seen nothing but good come into my life since I returned and the entire time I was inactive there was nothing but sorrow. At my lowest time I was living on my firend's couch, my car had just been reposessed and I literally owned nothing but what was in a few boxes. Once I got active again in church and started putting my life together and seeing the blessings that come from paying tithing and following the gospel. for instance, my wife and I were both working, not paying tithing, month after month we went into the hole and never had any money to do anything. The decision to start paying tithing did not come easy. but we did it, and at the same time My wife stopped working to be a stay-at-home mother. But somehow we never went into the hole again. We always had money to take care of everything that needed to be taken care of. Sure we didn't have a ton of money to go to the movies or whatever but we were always taken care of. I know the power of the atonement is real because it has brought so much peace into my life. I hope that you can feel the same thing one day.

Ether 4:15

That is great for you. But the attitude I have a problem with seems to be more of either 1. You cant have any different ideas than the church. 2. Im better than thou.

 

[Bismillah]

If I may dallas, I would most definitely not base my opinion on faith on just these forums.

If they probe into accounts that you do not agree with, then I'm sure these have been addressed much more comprehensively and given to the Church's leadership over the years.

From what I understand you attend BYU (which I think is the Mormon University correct?)

If so you are abound to have excellent resources. Devote Sundays or anyother days of the week to the library and just research and pore through some texts authored by prominent clergy.

I'm sure you will have at least one influential professor who you can always bring your concerns to.

Because really, to lose your faith and become so disillusioned with something that is so important to you and obviously causing much tension within you is really a shame if you don't invest some time to find out the truth for yourself.

 

[dallas1125]

If I may dallas, I would most definitely not base my opinion on faith on just these forums.

If they probe into accounts that you do not agree with, then I'm sure these have been addressed much more comprehensively and given to the Church's leadership over the years.

From what I understand you attend BYU (which I think is the Mormon University correct?)

If so you are abound to have excellent resources. Devote Sundays or anyother days of the week to the library and just research and pore through some texts authored by prominent clergy.

I'm sure you will have at least one influential professor who you can always bring your concerns to.

Because really, to lose your faith and become so disillusioned with something that is so important to you and obviously causing much tension within you is really a shame if you don't invest some time to find out the truth for yourself.

Yeah, I have a ton of resources that I can use to find the truth. I just need to find what is bothering me and the answer to that.

 

[madhatter85]

That is great for you. But the attitude I have a problem with seems to be more of either
1. You cant have any different ideas than the church.

This is absolutely false. You can have your own ideas you are free to do what you want and think what you want. Just be aware that following the philosophies of man are not going to bring happiness and joy. Sticking to the gospel plan, following the prophets, studying the scriptures to have an understanding of who God is. Only those things will help you find the answers you seek.

2. Im better than thou.

I am definitely not. If you knew me as a person you would definitely not say that. I have so much to repent for I honestly did not believe for the longest time that I could be forgiven for my transgressions. through some deeply personal and sacred experiences in my life I know that the Atonement applies to everyone.

I have a hard time waking up. I am a very deep sleeper. so when my wife needs to wake me up she can't just gently push me, she has to use all of her strength to jostle me around until I wake up.

Some people are spiritually like that. they need slapped in the face to wake up and realize what is staring right at them. Unfortunately, people get upset when that happens and instead of realizing it is for their own good they walk away butt-hurt and feeling like people are being "holier than thou."

If everyone waited until they were perfect to speak, nothing would ever be said.

 

[dallas1125]

This is absolutely false. You can have your own ideas you are free to do what you want and think what you want. Just be aware that following the philosophies of man are not going to bring happiness and joy. Sticking to the gospel plan, following the prophets, studying the scriptures to have an understanding of who God is. Only those things will

Point Proved.

I am definitely not. If you knew me as a person you would definitely not say that. I have so much to repent for I honestly did not believe for the longest time that I could be forgiven for my transgressions. through some deeply personal and sacred experiences in my life I know that the Atonement applies to everyone.

I have a hard time waking up. I am a very deep sleeper. so when my wife needs to wake me up she can't just gently push me, she has to use all of her strength to jostle me around until I wake up.

Some people are spiritually like that. they need slapped in the face to wake up and realize what is staring right at them. Unfortunately, people get upset when that happens and instead of realizing it is for their own good they walk away butt-hurt and feeling like people are being "holier than thou."

You might not have this attitude. It is still prevalent among people were I live.

If everyone waited until they were perfect to speak, nothing would ever be said.

Your right, unfortunately thats not the problem. The problem is that they are judging you, not speaking.

 

[madhatter85]

Point Proved.


You might not have this attitude. It is still prevalent among people were I live.

That is unfortunate. If your friends are truly like that they are not good friends. The prophets have suggested that a single good friend is worth more than many fair-weather friends.

 

[dallas1125]

That is unfortunate. If your friends are truly like that they are not good friends. The prophets have suggested that a single good friend is worth more than many fair-weather friends.

Yeah, that is a true statement.

 

[Katzpur]

You know, I'm been doing a lot of thinking about this whole issue the last few days. I certainly would not want anyone to think I've never had my faith shaken by negative accounts of LDS history. At 62 years of age, I've seen so much anti-Mormon literature over my lifetime that nothing surprises me anymore. While every new "discovery" is, of course, disturbing, the more I see, the more I readily I am able to spot exaggerations, out-of-context statements, and speculation -- particularly speculation about motives, mindsets and agendas.

At this point in my life, I have decided that if the Church's doctrines aren't true, they should be. There are no more beautiful doctrines taught by any Church on the face of the earth. I have absolutely no desire to give them up. I find myself in quite the similar situation as the Apostles did when Christ asked them, "Will ye also go away?" Peter answered by saying, "Lord, to whom shall we go?" Should I try to convince myself that God is an invisible substance which fills the universe? Should I feel okay with the idea that He created billions of human beings for no other reason than to use them as His eternal firewood? Should I abandon the idea of a literal, physical resurrection and the belief that I will not only see my parents again, but be able to put my arms around them and hug them as long as I want? I can't go there. I simply cannot. And so I have a real reason for wanting it all to be true.

I heard a quote once and while I haven't been able to find the source, I think it's worth repeating. It was this: "A conclusion isn't the end; it's just the place at which you decided to stop thinking." I can hear what our detractors have to say about Joseph Smith -- from his marital relationships to the multiple accounts of his first vision to the questions about the origins of the Book of Abraham -- and let it go at that. Or I can look for more information. More information is always better than less information. It is out there. It does exist. In other words, I can choose to come to my conclusion any time I want to. I can hear either side of the argument and decide I'm through thinking about what the other side has to say. Since I have already made up my mind what I want to believe, it's up to me to keep looking for evidences that what I have chosen to believe is true. The critics will make sure to continue to provide me with more questions. And like Hugh Nibley once said (I'm paraphrasing, but it's pretty close), "You're never playing with a full deck." That, my friends, goes for both sides.

 

[madhatter85]

Haven't paid my tithing in years and my financial situation has never been better. Personally, as a person who no longer believes in the LDS Church's teachings and doctrines your story doesn't mean much to me. In my opinion, it only shows that you weren't handling your money properly.

And you can think what you want. I know otherwise