How are you okay with that?

[Tristesse]

yes but again this isnt attacking the logic of the arguement, this just seems to be an emotional response.

remember im only trying to show that the view is logically consistant.

The view may be logically consistent, but it's an immoral system.

 

[tarasan]

sure it does if you think you are worthless...and god is a celestial tyrannical dictator...
very sad indeed.

when in my statement did i cliam i had no worth? i merely cliamed God had more worth than i do, and seeing as he is the creator and sustianer of all things, and through him all things exist, he most certianly does have more worht than me.

again the arguement shows that if God is truely just he must send people to hell, and that to not do so would be unjust, because we have done an infinite crime we deserve an infinite punishment

 

[Erebus]

I find it funny that when people say I'm going to hell, they treat it nonchalantly, almost bored or sorry for me. If one believes that hell is an everlasting tortuous existence with no chance of ever being revoked, how can they possibly be okay with that? I've said this before but it's sorta like having a friend who kills people and saying to another friend "You better be nice to this guy or he'll cut your head off and chop your body up into little pieces. I'm not too worried though, I'm on his good side, no decappy-choppy for me, ^_^ but good luck with your situation though." It's like being raped by someone and then blaming the victim. That's less of a religion and more of a hostage situation.
How can you be a good person if you condone such treatment for others just because they don't agree with you?

Don't worry, this is simply a misunderstanding of what heaven and Hell are. Heaven is an eternity worshipping God. Great for some people, horrible for others. Hell is an eternity of doing whatever you want in a world where sin is infinitely bountiful. Strippers, gambling, alcohol, wild parties, wilder orgies etc. All this is up for grabs, but for some reason, some people don't like the concept (jealousy perhaps) and so will preach that Hell is a state of eternal torment

 

[fantome profane]

sorry but ive always wanted to test this arguement out on this forum and uve given me the opertunity .

so here it goes

(4) Other things being equal, the seriousness of a crime increases as the status (the degree of importance or value) of its victim increases.
(5) God has an infinitely high status.
(6) Therefore, crimes against God are infinitely serious (from (4) and (5)).
(7) All sin is a crime against God.
(8) Therefore, all sin is infinitely serious (from (6) and (7)).
(9) The more serious a crime is, the more serious its punishment should be.
(10) Therefore, all sin should receive an infinitely serious punishment (from (8) and (9)).


this logical arguement assumes that the more value a victum has the more serious a crime is done against it, aka we dont view it as bad if you kill an ant than a person.


and because christians believe GOd has an infinite amount of worth when you sin, you do an infinite crime to GOd because of his worth.


therefore your punishment to be just, must be eternal


this kind of arguement doesnt show how God can legitametly do something rather it shows how he must do it to be just.


your thoughts?

​

(4) Other things being equal, the seriousness of a crime increases as the status (the degree of importance or value) of its victim increases.​

So you are saying that stealing 5 dollars from a poor starving sick child would be a minor crime, but stealing 5 dollars from a very rich successful man would be a very serious crime. Is that what you are saying?

I reject this premise

(5) God has an infinitely high status.

I reject this premise as well. I can see no reason why “God” should be granted any more status than any human being.
[FONT=&quot]
(Matt 25:35-40) [/FONT]

 

[spencer751]

how did you get that? stealing a pin has less worth than a life so using the logic of the arguement it in fact would conclude the opposite of what you said.

are you trying to say that a prostitute has less worth than a pope? clearly your going agianst christianity when you say that.

Pin comment- According to your argument everything has infinite value because God has infinite value.

My point on the prostitute comment was simply to say that some things have more value to different people. In other words God can differentiate between different sins.

 

[tarasan]

The view may be logically consistent, but it's an immoral system.

it shows that for GOd to be just he must do it, he by his very nature has no choice but to, however there is a system of repentance, and coming back to him, which he is under no moral obligation to do. (remeber according to this logic we deserve this)

 

[Riverwolf]

indeed but those are just some of the interpretations of a victum, I was anly showing those so you could see it was possible for a victum to be someone that doesnt suffer, not that victums cant suffer, do you reject the definition i gave from that same sight? if so why?

The definition you provided is still describing one who is being harmed by implication.

...except that I don't think "victim of an optical illusion" is an accurate phrase. So, yes, I do question that one.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

it shows that for GOd to be just he must do it, he by his very nature has no choice but to, however there is a system of repentance, and coming back to him, which he is under no moral obligation to do. (remeber according to this logic we deserve this)

Yeah according to your twisted worldview we deserve it for being human beings.

 

[tarasan]

Pin comment- According to your argument everything has infinite value because God has infinite value.

My point on the prostitute comment was simply to say that some things have more value to different people. In other words God can differentiate between different sins.

no according to my arguement God has infinite worth look at the premises again it only cliams that GOd has infinite worth.

and no that isnt neccessarily the case it depends on how you attribute worth, which this arguement doesnt touch on. it only makes the case that god has infinite worth

 

[waitasec]

this logical arguement assumes

this doesn't make sense.
logic is not based on assumption

logic: The science or art of exact reasoning, or of pure and formal thought, or of the laws according to which the processes of pure thinking should be conducted;

assumption: The act of taking for granted, or supposing a thing without proof; supposition; unwarrantable claim.

 

[Tristesse]

when in my statement did i cliam i had no worth? i merely cliamed God had more worth than i do, and seeing as he is the creator and sustianer of all things, and through him all things exist, he most certianly does have more worht than me.

again the arguement shows that if God is truely just he must send people to hell, and that to not do so would be unjust, because we have done an infinite crime we deserve an infinite punishment

So, what happens to a rapist who gets "saved?" Is his fate the same as an atheist who's tried to do good his whole life?

 

[tarasan]

Yeah according to your twisted worldview we deserve it for being human beings.

the logic shows this, if you dont think its right please say but this seems to be an emotional response not a logical one

 

[Tristesse]

it shows that for GOd to be just he must do it, he by his very nature has no choice but to, however there is a system of repentance, and coming back to him, which he is under no moral obligation to do. (remeber according to this logic we deserve this)

He has no chioce? I thought he was the creator of all? Didn't he create the rules by which to live?

 

[tarasan]

So, what happens to a rapist who gets "saved?" Is his fate the same as an atheist who's tried to do good his whole life?

that depends did the athiest repent before God about the infinite amount of wrong caused him?

this is a side note anyway, the main point the logic was trying to show is that God must punish humanity for the sin he has done eternally. he gave us a way out which like i have said before he was under no moral obligation to do, and yet you still complain? teh question isnt really that your unsaved but that you never repented for what you did.

 

[Tristesse]

that depends did the athiest repent before God about the infinite amount of wrong caused him?

this is a side note anyway, the main point the logic was trying to show is that God must punish humanity for the sin he has done eternally. he gave us a way out which like i have said before he was under no moral obligation to do, and yet you still complain? teh question isnt really that your unsaved but that you never repented for what you did.

No, he didn't. His only "sin" was not believing in the unbelievable.

 

[waitasec]

when in my statement did i cliam i had no worth? i merely cliamed God had more worth than i do, and seeing as he is the creator and sustianer of all things, and through him all things exist, he most certianly does have more worht than me.

again the arguement shows that if God is truely just he must send people to hell, and that to not do so would be unjust, because we have done an infinite crime we deserve an infinite punishment

if you make statements like

if God is truely just he must send people to hell

you hold no value to human life.
so living in a celestial dictatorship is what fits your principles....
that's what you're saying, i don't think you realize it but it is what you are saying.

 

[spencer751]

no according to my arguement God has infinite worth look at the premises again it only cliams that GOd has infinite worth.

and no that isnt neccessarily the case it depends on how you attribute worth, which this arguement doesnt touch on. it only makes the case that god has infinite worth

(6) Therefore, crimes against God are infinitely serious (from (4) and (5)).

Clarification on this please. Wouldn't this mean any crime no matter how small or large is equally bad.

 

[tarasan]

He has no chioce? I thought he was the creator of all? Didn't he create the rules by which to live?

in theology there are two kinds of choices that we attribute to God positive choices and natural choices.

natural choices are things that God does by his nature like be good and just, he has control over these he just is goodness and justice.

positive choices are choices he decides upon such as creating us.

 

[javajo]

except for the fact you are still guilty. or does salvation take your integrity and self dignity away too?

When we trust Christ, all our guilt and shame and sin is laid on Christ who bore our transgressions. Knowing we are bought with a price although freely saved and that God considers us his children, royal princes and princesses of the King of Kings spurs us on to living with integrity and self dignity and not groveling in this sinful world. It is because we are freely saved that people begin to see a change in us and see our good works, not to get saved, but as a result, not required for salvation, but an overflow of God in us.

 

[tarasan]

(6) Therefore, crimes against God are infinitely serious (from (4) and (5)).

Clarification on this please. Wouldn't this mean any crime no matter how small or large is equally bad.

if you did them to God yes.