Does Shari'a really call for executing homosexuals?

[Starsoul]

You provide a lot of statistics but fail to realize that the reason the US has such high statistics for abuse and crime is because they report abuse and crime and document it.

Nobody said Us is the only country where all this happens in, you're pulling it at the wrong end, whats intended was, that morals in US have collectively had an uninterrupted socially ' supportive & accepted ' blow. A rape in a muslim country is treated as a rape, in a westren country there's consensual sex between two adults, and even then, its a huge wonder why rape is even happening in the US?

Many rapes and crimes and inhumanities go unreported in a lot of countries because there isn't a system set up to document and report them. Yes, it looks "bad" for the countries that do report them, but please don't have illusions that this same stuff doesn't happen in other countries.

If they are under-reported, there isn't much to estimate on figures. Unreported does not mean they happen like crazy and people get away with it. What does happen is , that they are in such insignificant numbers, that even one case attracts a huge audience. The social structure of a muslim society makes such an ordeal almost impossible, for a women to get raped.

Muslim culture has different colors in different countries, but the basic idea is the same, and it is NOT being followed in most areas, hence Its not about Islam not doing anything, it is about muslims in power enjoying being corrupt just like any other nation. Things are bound to change soon though, there is increasing awareness, and instability in the region, and the current scenario will go downhill for any progress to happen..

Why compare with the sorry unfortunates? If Education SAVES people from rapes, why does US have rapes at all? THAT is what I'm trying to ask. Fine, one can debate all they want about the misery un-educatedness has brought, What is the gift of education to the social structure of a westren civilization, besides sexual mayhem? And what does US actually do to stop rapes? Punish the culprits? jail them for 5 yrs so that they haunt other prisoners and be out in 5 yrs. Great.

It's sort of like how some people say "Oh my gosh, look at all the reports of earthquakes and disasters: they're getting more and more frequent lately, obviously armageddon is upon us!"

Well, i don't know what you mean here, but natural disasters are different. Your views on it will be different. My views tell me that natural disasters hint towards the displeasure of God. We in our country have those too, and trust me There is no way I'm going to say our people don't deserve it, God forbid, maybe we deserve it even more than anyone else. But nobody takes a fancy out of the consequences of a natural disaster, its just not in our hands. But Misery caused by the society, and its immoral practicess IS in our hands, what do we do to control it? Nothing.

But no, that isn't the case: natural disasters are just as prevalent as they've always been, they just get REPORTED more often now

.
Umm well, Its in the Scriptures(i think) and the Quran that Natural disasters will increase towards the end of times owing to the brutality of those who rule,and the immorality of peoples, it isn't so much about reporting errors IMO.

Look at a country like Pakistan where a woman is often blamed for her own rape and ask how many rapes are going unreported because of fear?

Women aren't blamed for their own rapes in pakistan,that is so blown out of proportions, where did you get that from? And Who said pakistan was an Islamic country? It is supposed to be but it is not, (thanks to Us interference, all economic ties are based on the cooperation with US, if US pulls, everyone pulls and the whole country is sanctioned , its on its own, which i wish happens sooner ).

It is a muslim majority country but I'm sorry people are so misinformed about the rule of Law of the country, It is anything but Islamic, at large, The religion is limited to the practice of rituals only, offcorse there are many exceptions independently, but sadly the law of the country is mostly british inspired.(because the region was ruled by the colonial british for a very long time, the power transfer occurred to the rich corrupt elite, which has remained intact to this day.)Islam never came in the picture, was never adopted as the system of the land, and conveniently is confined to the surface only, nothing deep.

Look at other countries that don't have a catologuing infrastructure and ask how many crimes (even those which are prosecuted) aren't being systematically written down as "X% of this crime happened this year!"

which countries are those? Do you find it hard to believe that they have other issues to focus on like theft due to poverty?

Even despite all that, two wrongs don't make a right. Oppression isn't the answer to social woes, education is.

You're taking wrong inferences from my post, Education is quite accessible in the US and the literacy rate of US is 99%. How do you match that with the crime rates? why hasnt education helped the US yet? The rest of the world will follow you ma'm, but show us the core proof of practicality , and the good consequences of that education.

Edit: Also, you're conveniently forgetting that different countries have their own social woes for different reasons. In a lot of Middle Eastern countries things like honor killings are rampant; but everyone's excuse is "Oh it's the culture, not the government or religion." Why aren't you willing to concede that it isn't a secular and free government that causes these woes but rather the culture? Demographics show that in America most of the crime and debauchery is committed by the poor and the poorly educated -- just like it is elsewhere in the world. Why blame the principles of civil liberties when it comes to us but complain when someone blames Islam for stuff like honor killings? It's a double standard.

Well, cuz it is a secular govt. for so long and the crime rate doesn't seem to be dropping by any denominations. One has to admit that somewhere the society isn't capable of ceasing all the mayhem, or doing enough. And honor killings is more of an indian dilemma than of a Muslim country, there aren't any reported honor killings in the country which do not get convicted, it is a crime here. It is mainly because of the lack of Islamic education, because 'other' education is reaching places anyway. The Education system of today is obsolete, and is just churning out idiots after idiots, it badly NEEDS to get moralized for its own good.

In US, the staggering rate of child abuse every 10 seconds is too high to be confined to the least size of one segment(the uneducated) only. Public education is free in US, why wouldn't people get educated?

I do agree that it's not Islam's fault that honor killings happen, but I submit that maybe Islam isn't doing enough to stop it.

I submit that these social woes in America aren't due to a government based on civil liberties but rather on the culture and the problems associated with poverty and poor education. Civil liberties have been shown to increase the quality of life across the board in every country that's ever adopted them. Oppression is NEVER the answer.

Again, Islam hasn't even been given a chance to show what it can do, the system of governance is so basic, and so strong that it does not support any elitest blood,money thirsty bureaucracy, the rulers are the servers, not the other way round like whats happening today. And as for civil liberties, Islam carries more rights for everyone, in an Islamic state, there is none today sadly. But it is predicted to be, and it shall be.

 

[Starsoul]

OMIgoshsuchalongpost : P

 

[Christian Gnosis]

Is anyone ever going to answer the question put forth in the OP? I've seen Muslims jump around it in this thread. Does Sharia call for the execution of homosexuals? Yes OR no.

 

[Blackheart]

The best solution is as I describe: freedom of choice, so long as people aren't being harmed. If a non-X person decides not to abide by X's taboos in an X-majority country, then they might be ostracized by the community, but they should never be prosecuted or flogged or jailed or killed. That's just wrong. Especially when there's supposed to be no compulsion.

You have to remember that there are alot of people in these countries who are proud of the high moral standards set by their leaders and to relax this would not be welcomed. It is their right to live in a society that they believe works well and not have western values forced upon them. Our own perception of 'freedom' is heavily influenced by the society in which we are used to living in.

Many social problems and immoral behaviors are linked to poor access to quality education anyway: something the world should strive for is increasing the quality and access to education; it would most likely positively impact things like poverty, crime, violence, and so on.

Im not sure this would be all that applicable outside of countries that dont already have decent economies. Education wont get you very far if there is no money in the system. I think there may be a better arguement for moral standards being a tool of reducing crime and violence.

Instead of imprisoning and flogging and killing, why not try to educate? Why not say, "This is why I don't think you should do that," but allow people to still have a choice?

Sounds nice but that hasnt worked in the west has it?

Anything can be abused. Even water can kill you. The government's job isn't to babysit people and to think and make decisions for them. The government's job is to protect people from things that would harm them and to uphold their rights.

You say yourself that anything can be abused and then you say it is the governements job to protect people from things that would harm them. Well isnt that what they are doing by enforcing these rules. Remember if we could successfully get rid of alcohol then the crime rate would be slashed beyond recognition.

As I said before I dont agree with any of this and I, being a westerner, would rather stick to what I know but it sounds like a society that has much more concern for its people than western societies do.

 

[TashaN]

Is anyone ever going to answer the question put forth in the OP? I've seen Muslims jump around it in this thread. Does Sharia call for the execution of homosexuals? Yes OR no.

No.

 

[Christian Gnosis]

No.

Then what does it call for?

 

[darkendless]

Then what does it call for?

Refraining from homosexuality as it is against the will of God/ Allah. It is viewed as immoral in multiple religions. Islam is no more severe in its wording against practicing homosexuality.

 

[Christian Gnosis]

Refraining from homosexuality as it is against the will of God/ Allah. It is viewed as immoral in multiple religions. Islam is no more severe in its wording against practicing homosexuality.

Which religions are you referring to?

 

[darkendless]

Which religions are you referring to?

Major abrahamic religions: Christianity, Judaism, Christianity. Their references to homosexuality are somewhat similar with respect to content and delivery.

 

[Christian Gnosis]

Major abrahamic religions: Christianity, Judaism, Christianity. Their references to homosexuality are somewhat similar with respect to content and delivery.

Well many modern day Christians don't view homosexuality as immoral, and to my understanding, neither do Jews. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

[darkendless]

Well many modern day Christians don't view homosexuality as immoral, and to my understanding, neither do Jews. Maybe I'm wrong?

Theres a lot more freedom within religions these days to my knowledge. Perhaps i'm also wrong?

 

[TashaN]

Then what does it call for?

It calls for obeying God and refraining from what he warned us from to the best of our abilities.

 

[Blackheart]

Well many modern day Christians don't view homosexuality as immoral, and to my understanding, neither do Jews. Maybe I'm wrong?

Whats a modern day Christian?

As a Gnostic you should know better than to group all Christians together like this let alone define them as having the same beliefs.

 

[Meow Mix]

A rape in a muslim country is treated as a rape, in a westren country there's consensual sex between two adults, and even then, its a huge wonder why rape is even happening in the US?

I'm not sure what you mean -- do you think rapes aren't prosecuted in the USA, or treated very seriously?

If they are under-reported, there isn't much to estimate on figures. Unreported does not mean they happen like crazy and people get away with it. What does happen is , that they are in such insignificant numbers, that even one case attracts a huge audience. The social structure of a muslim society makes such an ordeal almost impossible, for a women to get raped.

There are a couple factors to consider, though. For one, part of the US's rape statistics include marital rape, which isn't a crime in many Muslim-majority countries and thus isn't reported. Secondly, Pakistan in particular has only recently worked on changing its rape laws, which previously forced a woman to provide four witnesses as though it were a trial for adultery. (I'm not sure if they still do this, but hopefully not). Third, in general the social stigma accounts for underreporting of rapes and sexual crimes. When Muslims move to countries that do have high standards of reporting sexual crimes (such as Sweden, which has recently done one of the first studies of religion/culture vs. rapes) it turns out that Muslims born on Muslim soil tend to rape just as much as everyone else (it just happens to get REPORTED more in countries that report that sort of thing. In fact, ~65% of rapes reported in Sweden were from non-western immigrants).

Why compare with the sorry unfortunates? If Education SAVES people from rapes, why does US have rapes at all?

Because a lot of people in the US are uneducated. I don't know where you got the 99% literacy rate from (that's false), but the people in American prisons for violent crimes are grossly disproportionately (compared to the rest of the population) illiterate and undereducated. (~60% of those in prison are functionally illiterate whereas ~4% of the American population is functionally illiterate; the link between undereducation and crime in America is undeniable).

A study in Texas showed that prison thugs who received education while behind bars had an insanely low rate of recidivism (i.e. falling back to crime): ~12%. Furthermore, the rate was inversely proportional to how much education they received: 13.7% of those with a mere Associates went back to prison, 5.7% of those with a Bachelors, and 0% (!) of those with a Masters. Even the 13.7% of those with Associates degrees is a remarkable shift from the national average of 41-71%.

(Source: http://www.bard.edu/bpi/pdfs/crime_report.pdf)

Crime in America isn't just correlated with undereducation but also with centers of poverty. Most of the crime is perpetrated in certain areas of certain cities (the poorest, with the poorest quality of education) whereas most of the rest of the country is virtually crime free: United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There just happens to be a LOT of poor, uneducated people in some of these cities, so if you had a map of violent crimes in the US you'd easily see that they're all concentrated in little areas -- powerful evidence that it isn't "the American culture" that's causing the problem, other than perhaps the culture not doing enough to educate and give these people a chance to live above poverty. It certainly isn't because America is "out of touch with its morals." These violent criminals are basically uneducated people who live in violent ghettos that society has somehow or other let down; but the point is that their statistics make the crime/rape statistics for America appear grossly larger than they actually are for 90% of the population.

The Education system of today is obsolete, and is just churning out idiots after idiots, it badly NEEDS to get moralized for its own good.

This is true for everywhere in the world, I think. I agree. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "moralized." It just needs to be improved in general.

In US, the staggering rate of child abuse every 10 seconds is too high to be confined to the least size of one segment(the uneducated) only. Public education is free in US, why wouldn't people get educated?

Actually, most violent crime in the US is confined to the poor/uneducated; of which there are more than you probably think. That's one problem with America; we (not me personally, but "we") sweep our homeless, our poor, our uneducated under the rug and pretend that they don't exist. We pretend those ghettos don't exist, even though we know not to take that turn to the "bad areas" and we lock our car doors if we're even remotely near them.

But the fact is, they do exist, and most crime (not all crime, of course, but a HUGE chunk of it) is perpetrated by the uneducated and poor. Studies show again and again the correlation between education and the reduction of crime, and demographics show again and again the overwhelming correlation between crime in USA and tiny portions of the population in certain districts around certain cities and suburbs.

I suspect this is probably also the case worldwide, but don't have the data to back that up.

Again, Islam hasn't even been given a chance to show what it can do, the system of governance is so basic, and so strong that it does not support any elitest blood,money thirsty bureaucracy, the rulers are the servers, not the other way round like whats happening today. And as for civil liberties, Islam carries more rights for everyone, in an Islamic state, there is none today sadly. But it is predicted to be, and it shall be.

In your idea of an Islamic state could I settle down with my girlfriend for life as lovers? Could I eat pork chops or imbibe alcohol? Could I refuse to wear a veil or hijab in the streets without being mocked, assaulted, or arrested?

(Incidentally, in Egypt women have begun using a website called Harassmap to document which streets not to walk on due to the constant harrassment by men. I hope their project successfully protects them!)

HarassMap

 

[Bismillah]

Then what does it call for?

Islam prohibits sexuality in the public hetrosexual or otherwise. When this law is broken the perpetrators are punished. Homosexuals are free to do as they please and it is prohibited for Muslims to violate the privacy of the household.

The only restriction posed is moderation in public and this is confined to acts of sexuality. Holding hands, hugging, and such gestures are not punishable.

 

[Meow Mix]

Islam prohibits sexuality in the public hetrosexual or otherwise. When this law is broken the perpetrators are punished. Homosexuals are free to do as they please and it is prohibited for Muslims to violate the privacy of the household.

The only restriction posed is moderation in public and this is confined to acts of sexuality. Holding hands, hugging, and such gestures are not punishable.

In theory or in practice?

How many countries can two men or two women safely hold hands and give each other knowing, flirty looks?

 

[TheQueenCat]

most of people think that homosexuals are "others". this is not only happen in Muslim countries. i can't understand why people judge everything...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Islam prohibits sexuality in the public hetrosexual or otherwise. When this law is broken the perpetrators are punished. Homosexuals are free to do as they please and it is prohibited for Muslims to violate the privacy of the household.

The only restriction posed is moderation in public and this is confined to acts of sexuality. Holding hands, hugging, and such gestures are not punishable.

What is interesting to me is that some disagreements between Shariah-supporters and non-supporters are not disagreements on principle. For example, almost everyone agrees that in principle, there should be boundaries and courtesies in public which are not required in private. The question is, do we draw the line at women exposing exposing their faces and hands, do we draw the line at people walking around nude and having orgies at the grocery store, or somewhere in between these extremes? To most people, there is a lot of gray area in between these two extremes. It is as much a matter of personal preference and cultural norms, and decisions of trial and error made by communities, as it is a matter of good and "evil". The minute details of what to wear in public, what to say, etc. are things which are best developed through individual experience and choice. Trying to spell it all out and enforce it in unalterable law, to me, is like building a skyscraper that can't bend and adjust its weight in the wind; it will break and collapse.

The problem I have with Shariah is that its supporters are not satisfied merely with advocating their own cultural preferences; instead, they have to take one particular set of taboos and cultural tastes, put the stamp of God on them, and condemn other cultures as sinful. I can't claim to know, for a fact, that society is better off if women are treated equally instead of being asked to "lower their gaze" (which men are not asked to do). What I do know is that appeals to ancient theories of Arabian theology cannot possibly answer this question better than the experiments of modern-day experience, free choice, openness and toleration.

 

[TashaN]

The problem I have with Shariah is that its supporters are not satisfied merely with advocating their own cultural preferences; instead, they have to take one particular set of taboos and cultural tastes, put the stamp of God on them, and condemn other cultures as sinful. I can't claim to know, for a fact, that society is better off if women are treated equally instead of being asked to "lower their gaze" (which men are not asked to do). What I do know is that appeals to ancient theories of Arabian theology cannot possibly answer this question better than the experiments of modern-day experience, free choice, openness and toleration.

Women ARE treated equally in the Quran, and i think you would be surprised to know that in the Quran men are asked FIRST to "lower their gaze" then women.

Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty ....

(Quran 24:30-31)

Doesn't that surprise you, Mr. Spinkles?

Doesn't that make you curious, Mr. Spinkles?

 

[TashaN]

In theory or in practice?

How many countries can two men or two women safely hold hands and give each other knowing, flirty looks?

I think this been answered before. In the middle east it's normal for friends of the same gender to hold hands or kiss on cheek when they greet each other.

Oh God! a flirty look?! Who on earth gonna watch people and punish them over that. It's really frustrating to see such stupid questions Meow Mix, and sorry to say that.

By the way, you didn't answer me, why don't the FBI handle everything in the US instead of the local police?