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The resurrection of Jesus.

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Reference please. It is fine to hold to this belief, but if you are going to state a view like this, then please cite a reference.

Here is at least 1 reference that appears to disagree with your view here:

"After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also..." ( 1 Corinthians 15:7,8).

I'm sorry I thought that I was speaking to someone who was informed.

I was speaking from the perspective that Paul did not know the historical Jesus, and the passage in 1 Cor that you cited was a reference to the Christ of faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory#cite_note-83
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
The authors were eyewitnesses.
You're certainly entitled to believe this and any other odd, unsupported thing you like, but not to state it as fact and retain any credibility. As I say, no mainstream historian believes this.
The oldest COPY, not original was circa 125 of part of John.
How do you know it's a copy, if it's the oldest scrap in existence?
I'm glad I'm not in the mainstream, I believe the Bible and have trusted Christ as my Saviour, and that is just my personal belief and choice and comes from my personal experiences and studies and I hope people can respect that.
I respect that it's your right to believe any weird stuff you want to. I don't in general respect beliefs without any evidentiary support, no. I think it's dangerous, immoral and generally not a good plan.
 
I'm sorry I thought that I was speaking to someone who was informed.

I was speaking from the perspective that Paul did not know the historical Jesus, and the passage in 1 Cor that you cited was a reference to the Christ of faith.

Christ myth theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

um...ok...from the note 83 you linked to and what follows:

"Additionally, biblical scholars believes that relatively early material regarding the historical Jesus is found in the Gospel According to John.[83]
[edit] Pauline epistles


Paul, 1410s (Tretyakov Gallery, Moscow)


The composition of the letters of Paul of Tarsus is generally dated between 50 and 64 CE, some two to three decades after the conventional date given for Jesus's death. Paul did not know the historical Jesus. He only claims he had seen him, 'as of one born out of due time', i.e., as the 'risen' Jesus.[84][85]
Many biblical scholars turn to Paul's letters (epistles) to support their arguments for an historical Jesus..."

not sure what you were trying to show me here, but thank you for another reference showing my point. :)
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
"I know in their own terms (the apostles) what they saw was the raised Jesus.
How would we know? We don't have a single word written by a disciple, only a report of a rumor recorded decades after the purported events described.
That's what they say
How do you know what they say? They didn't write it down, nor did anyone who spoke to them.
and then all the historic evidence we have afterwards attest to their conviction that that's what they saw.
What historic evidence might that be?
I'm not saying that they really did see the raised Jesus...I do not know what they saw. But I do know as a historian that they must have seen something." (Paula Fredriksen of Boston University as stated in July 2000 on the ABC network tv special The Search for Jesus hosted by Peter Jennings)
Oh, I'm sure they saw something, but how does that advance the discussion? Schizophrenics see things too, so what?

- Well, I guess that is at least 1 non-christian apologist that shows your doubt is not justified.
Really? Which? I'm not getting that from a report of a TV show in which someone says she believes they saw something.

I will completely agree with you that the disciples saw something. I have no problem with that.

The 1st know canon list was produced by Marcion in AD 140 and for his own purposes his list includes the Gospel of Luke. First, it should be noted that Luke had to have been written well before this list was written. Second, note that most, if not all scholars agree that Luke was not the first of the 4 main Gospels written, both Matthew and Mark are believed to predate even Luke.

- Strike 2. Care to try for one more swing?
I'm sorry, I don't follow. I don't have a problem with your assertion that at least some of the gospels were recorded by 140 C.E. I don't think that's controversial. You realize that's over a century after the events described, right?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
More could be said concerning this uninformed view but let me simply point out what should be the obvious. You acknowledge (rightly I might add) that Mark was a disciple of Peter and that Luke was a disciple of Paul. Uh...forgive me, but both Peter and Paul claimed to be eyewitnesses themselves. So at the very least what you acknowledge here is that both Mark and Luke were written by disciples of some of the first claimed eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus.

- Note as well that you just completely undercut your own previous claim that the "first known gospel was written at least 2 generations after the death of Jesus." Uh...no...according to even you, at least 2 of them were written by contemporaries of Jesus and the first generation of disciples of Jesus! So, thank you for disproving your own argument. :facepalm:

What are you talking about? Paul never laid eyes on Jesus. Are you under the impression that the gospels were written by Jesus' disciples? On what do you base that bizarre notion, more apologists?
 
You're certainly entitled to believe this and any other odd, unsupported thing you like, but not to state it as fact and retain any credibility. As I say, no mainstream historian believes this. How do you know it's a copy, if it's the oldest scrap in existence? I respect that it's your right to believe any weird stuff you want to. I don't in general respect beliefs without any evidentiary support, no. I think it's dangerous, immoral and generally not a good plan.

guess you did not see the previous page (pg. 10). Why else would you post again what you stated earlier with no reply.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
um...ok...from the note 83 you linked to and what follows:

"Additionally, biblical scholars believes that relatively early material regarding the historical Jesus is found in the Gospel According to John.[83]
[edit] Pauline epistles


Paul, 1410s (Tretyakov Gallery, Moscow)


The composition of the letters of Paul of Tarsus is generally dated between 50 and 64 CE, some two to three decades after the conventional date given for Jesus's death. Paul did not know the historical Jesus. He only claims he had seen him, 'as of one born out of due time', i.e., as the 'risen' Jesus.[84][85]
Many biblical scholars turn to Paul's letters (epistles) to support their arguments for an historical Jesus..."

not sure what you were trying to show me here, but thank you for another reference showing my point. :)
A reference that says that Paul never laid eyes on Jesus somehow supports your point that he did? Sorry, not following you again. PAUL DID NOT KNOW THE HISTORICAL JESUS. Never saw Him. Never met Him. Didn't know the man. Certainly was not there when He died. How again does this support your point? Maybe I'm not understanding your point.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
What are you talking about? Paul never laid eyes on Jesus. Are you under the impression that the gospels were written by Jesus' disciples? On what do you base that bizarre notion, more apologists?

In his mind, you're proving his point.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
What point? Is it me, or is this poster not quite making sense? Paul never met Jesus. Sources that say that Paul did not know the historical Jesus support his point that he witnessed His death? One of us is confused.

Usually I will assume that there is confusion... but in this case I think that it's open dishonesty [not you].
 
No, it does not seem that you do. Perhaps we are simply speaking right past each other here. Do you acknowledge that Paul claimed to see the resurrected Jesus?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
How can you lie about what we can all see? I don't understand how on earth this poster thinks the sources support his point. It makes no sense to me. Do you have a clue?

That's what I'm saying. It's open dishonesty, covered with polemics.

Either that or he's absolutely coco for Coco Puffs, and I don't think that he's nuts.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
No, it does not seem that you do. Perhaps we are simply speaking right past each other here. Do you acknowledge that Paul claimed to see the resurrected Jesus?

I'm not sure how to explain this to you.

Biblical interpreters have long thought that Paul did not connect the dots between the historical Jesus and the resurrected Jesus. So yes, Paul claimed to see a Jesus in 1 Corinthians, but we cannot impose a whole systematic theology on Paul when he was first creating and understanding it.
 
Quote:
The 1st know canon list was produced by Marcion in AD 140 and for his own purposes his list includes the Gospel of Luke. First, it should be noted that Luke had to have been written well before this list was written. Second, note that most, if not all scholars agree that Luke was not the first of the 4 main Gospels written, both Matthew and Mark are believed to predate even Luke.

- Strike 2. Care to try for one more swing?

I'm sorry, I don't follow. I don't have a problem with your assertion that at least some of the gospels were recorded by 140 C.E. I don't think that's controversial. You realize that's over a century after the events described, right?

- Yes, I realize that. That was not the point though. What do the underlined parts say?
 
I'm not sure how to explain this to you.

Biblical interpreters have long thought that Paul did not connect the dots between the historical Jesus and the resurrected Jesus. So yes, Paul claimed to see a Jesus in 1 Corinthians, but we cannot impose a whole systematic theology on Paul when he was first creating and understanding it.

Who is talking about systematic theolgy here? I asked if Paul claimed to see the resurrected Jesus. Your response is yes. Are you saying that the Jesus he claimed to see was not the Jesus of the Gospels? If so, then who exactly did he see according to you?

Are we still talking past each other?
 
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