How do i know i'm ready?

[Valor]

Good afternoon,
This thread is directed primarily to ToS members:

I'm curious to know how i can identify if i am ready for affiliation. What are, if any, prerequisits for affiliation. Steven Flowers does well in explaining the system in "Lords of the Left Hand Path", but are there any missed oppertunities i can take advantage of now that may help aid me toward affiliation?

To non ToS Setians:

What reason are there you have not decided to join?

 

[Daelach]

To non ToS Setians:

What reason are there you have not decided to join?

- Their basic epistemology (objectivism) is not at all psyche-centered, an inheritance from the CoS where it was appropriate. I consider radical constructivism a much better basis. But this means that I must discard all the things they have built upon that basis: the whole objective/subjective universe dichotomy. That in turn means that much of their following concepts do not make sense to me.

- Their understanding of LHP is far away from mine. I am closer to the Indian origin, in theory and practice. I consider their LHP understanding as erroneous. Consequently, all the isolate-intelligence stuff does not make sense to me.

- A little research about Eastern LHP reveals that it is in practice so different to the point as being completely inacceptable from the TOS point of view. By completely inacceptable, I mean termination of membership.

- I regard the TOS' understanding of Set as very different from mine. From my point of view, they are nearly confusing Set with Thoth.

=> As can be seen in my little discussion with Priest Adams, my Setianism is so far away from what the TOS understands by it that a membership would be useless. They have their own way of Setianism which does not match mine. Just as I think they have misunderstood the LHP, they would (and do) think that I have not understood anything at all. This means we could not effectively work together, and that should be the whole point of a membership. An organisation needs some consensus about what the big picture should be like, or else one will end up with a bunch of individualists where everyone heads in a different direction, and this will mean no work at all could be done.

Do not mistake me, I am not disencouraging you from becoming a member. If your understanding of Setianism is close to what the TOS understands by it, then the points which keep me from entering will not be of any relevance to you. They are only my personal points, and they work in both directions - just as I would not want to be a member, they would not want to accept me. Priest Adams will certainly confirm that.

You may evaluate the concepts the TOS laid out in public and see if you can accept them. If not, it would probably save your time and the time of the priests if you did not affiliate; the priests are doing that work in their leisure time, so what I would advice you is that you reflect thoroughly your motives and reasons. The priesthood will ask them anyway, so it will save time (theirs and yours) if you can answer such questions beforehand.

To put things clear, I am not a TOS member (I have never been so) and am NOT speaking on behalf of the TOS. Nevertheless, not wasting the time of people working without getting paid for that seems just to be fair.

 

[Valor]

-
- I regard the TOS' understanding of Set as very different from mine. From my point of view, they are nearly confusing Set with Thoth.

You may evaluate the concepts the TOS laid out in public and see if you can accept them.

You regard Set different from how the ToS? How so, pease?

Also, as LBM Magician, don't you feel we can excell further within the Dark Arts when sharing notes (if you will) with others?


No, i've done years of research on the Temple. Almost became a small obsession at one point: Harmless hording of literature. I've read everything public and now am ready to take that plunge. Atleast i think so. But true, it wouldn't be fair to waste their time. Hence, this thread.

 

[Sireal]

I've read everything public and now am ready to take that plunge.

I believe you answered your own question Valor.

 

[Daelach]

You regard Set different from how the ToS? How so, pease?

Less as gentleman, less concerned about knowledge, less like a gentleman. But therefore, much more disruptive, violent, antinomistic. A chaorderly force, and much less harmless. From my point of view, the TOS presets Set in many aspects more like I would present Thoth, and for my personal feeling, this is just not Setian enough. I want something more extreme.

Although of course I also undertake adventures of a more harmless nature which also TOS Setians could enjoy, like e.g. my journey to Egypt.

Also, as LBM Magician, don't you feel we can excell further within the Dark Arts when sharing notes (if you will) with others?

I guess, concerning the big picture, it is impossible. We both have good reasons to go the way we do - and those are the reasons not to accept the way we do not go. I see no alternative but to agree to disagree.

However, what the TOS Setians do is, in concrete projects, not always so different from what I do: going out into the world and learning valuable things. In such things, fruitful discussion should be possible, e.g. in this forum. Like I shared the experiences of my Egypt trip, it contains much information which might be useful also to others.

 

[KHPR]

To put things clear, I am not a TOS member (I have never been so) and am NOT speaking on behalf of the TOS. Nevertheless, not wasting the time of people working without getting paid for that seems just to be fair.

Very true Daelach, but you are telling others what we do and you're not getting it right. We don't see Set as being anything like Thoth. We see Set as a God of War, as a God of Self Transformation, as a God of Storms, we see many aspects to him and none of those have anything to do with Thoth.

Regarding our use of LHP, yes it is different than the Eastern version in a few ways which is why I prefer to address it usually as the Western LHP because it came from the East but evolved and varied.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[Valor]

I believe you answered your own question Valor.

Yes, i admit that i believe I'm ready. But how do i know for sure? I don't want to waste time, yours or my own. Its precious to me. But joining the Temple has been a dream for over 8 years now... Set by way of the ToS is all i know, i don't see his majesty as others do. And i know once those hinges bust off the doors of the Temple, i'm off and running further toward refinement. I believe theres no other way for me. I've learned all i can by myself, thier reading list is in my library for agathon sake!

Daelach: I also see Set as a carnal untamed force, but i also see his majesties greatness through the eyes of ToS literature, public and internal. I think my studies can advance within the Temple, but i respect your courage to walk the Setian path by yourself. How do you reach sovereignty through your studies? Do you have a particular method, an original map toward Self Deification?

 

[Valor]

what I do: going out into the world and learning valuable things. In such things, fruitful discussion should be possible, e.g. in this forum. Like I shared the experiences of my Egypt trip, it contains much information which might be useful also to others.

So you DO agree that sharing notes with others is effective? This is where i find the ToS to be the most effective tool... to share experiences and learn from thiers: what works and what doesn't, you know?

< I would love to hear about your trip, what did you visit and why? What did you learn from it all? What was your motivation?Thank you

 

[KHPR]

Our current High Priest and one other Magister have traveled to Egypt several times. One of the times with Dr. Zahi Hawass as the tour guide. I was very please that she could pull a few strings so that I could meet him as he is here in San Francisco for the King Tut exhibit. It was rather delightful to sit and have coffee with him as I can't make it to Egypt. He was rather interested in the work of the Temple of Set.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[Valor]

It was rather delightful to sit and have coffee with him as I can't make it to Egypt. He was rather interested in the work of the Temple of Set.

Really? How far is this interest going to stem do you predict Magister?

 

[KHPR]

Really? How far is this interest going to stem do you predict Magister?

Not too far probably. He's interested in what Egyptian reconstructionalist religions are doing and how they're doing it, but who knows he has my email address and we're in correspondence.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[Valor]

he has my email address and we're in correspondence.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

Thats Excellent!!!

 

[Kenaz]

Valor,

I would say if you are interested, go for it. But be *brutally* honest with yourself AND the Temple and decide if it is for you. Not just passively accepting everything as harmonious with yourself at face value. A great feature of the Setian I* (First Degree) is a time for the new Initiate (yourself) and the Temple to evaluate each other equally to see if it is "right" for each of you and the Temple. So the interest is there, and unless you want to evaluate it more (but you seem pretty sure in your posts) before you join, I see no reason why it would be a problem to Affiliate now?

But, surely *you* are the best judge of if *you* are ready and if it is the right time. No need to ask anyone else. Either way, the best of luck to you and the Path(s) you choose.

 

[Daelach]

Very true Daelach, but you are telling others what we do and you're not getting it right.

I do get it, from my perspective. You see, we both think that the other did not get it, and that is unlikely to change. I will not accept your authority, and you will not accept my arguments. So I guess the only thing we can do is to agree to disagree.

We don't see Set as being anything like Thoth.

Of course not - from my perspective, your are confounding them.

We see Set as a God of War, as a God of Self Transformation, as a God of Storms, we see many aspects to him and none of those have anything to do with Thoth.

That is your theory. Already when it comes to things like killing, you make a 180°-turn. You prefer the safe ways.

the Western LHP because it came from the East but evolved and varied.

There is one, probably THE point where we disagree most. I do not see it as evolution. IMO, it was a gross misunderstanding imported by Blavatsky. Even though you change her disgust into acceptance, the errors remain.

So you DO agree that sharing notes with others is effective? This is where i find the ToS to be the most effective tool... to share experiences and learn from thiers: what works and what doesn't, you know?

Well, I accomplish this without temple. I am going to many places, also such which the TOS would strongly disapprove, and I learn from many people. No, that is not presented to me under the big shining label "Setian", but I do not care. The world is my temple, so to say.

Oh, and some little romanticism.. Set did not have help from others. If Setianism is about walking on Set's part, then one thing to face certainly is the problem of getting things done largely alone. Well, in reality, I choose team work where it is appropriate, but only project-wise. People who can teach me knife fighting are not necessarily the ones which I absolutely must have around when it comes to philosophy.

I guess this one is a matter of personal taste, both has its advantages and drawbacks.

Concerning my Egypt trip:
I was in Luxor because I wanted to see the land where Set once had.. some kind of home, so to say. Besides, a spiritual journey seemed quite appropriate as honeymoon trip. And it was short enough to be able to deal with the heat and the burning sun (normally, I prefer the colder northern countries like Norway). A rather lengthy trip log can be found here:
Places: Egypt 2k9

Ah, another idea which (at least for me) always has worked fine: if you want to join some kind of group, you should be able to answer two questions in a precise and not too wordy manner:
1) why do you want to be with that group?
2) why should the group accept you - in what way will your presence enrich the group?
While I only can guess that this probably will not be too bad an idea with the TOS, I certainly can say that this works well e.g. for finding a job.

 

[KHPR]

I do get it, from my perspective. You see, we both think that the other did not get it, and that is unlikely to change. I will not accept your authority, and you will not accept my arguments. So I guess the only thing we can do is to agree to disagree.

You only have to accept my authority on what the Temple of Set does as I am a high ranking member. You on the other hand, aren't a member at all and never have been. Say what you like about Set, but don't talk about what the Temple thinks or does because you don't know.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams

 

[Daelach]

You only have to accept my authority on what the Temple of Set does as I am a high ranking member.

Oh, of course I do that. Namely in the sense that I believe that what you say here is what by and large folk in the TOS think. Of course not in every detail, you are still an individual, but concerning the big picture.

The point is that I think the contents of may of these believes are IMO (!) wrong.

Say what you like about Set, but don't talk about what the Temple thinks or does because you don't know.

Well, there is much literature available, both public and not-so-public. I agree with you that the TOS thinks they are concerned with Set, not Thoth. That is the reason why they call themselves TOS and not TOT.

My point, however, is that from my (!) perspective, the way the TOS perceives Set is extremely Thoth-like. This is a result of the fact that our perceptions of Set are rather different. And, sorry, although you are of course right that you know much more about internal stuff than I, your argument that I know nothing about how Set is seen in the TOS does not hold water. I have simply read too many literature as to know nothing. And you can believe me that I am able to read. I have read much more difficult works than the tablets, scrolls or essays.

If, on the other hand, you want to say that the tablets, scrolls and essays are just a heap of BS which say nothing at all about the TOS, then I am amused that the ruby tablet is the one which the II* are expected to make most of.

Damn, what do you actually think why I took the time to get them and read them?! Just because I had nothing better to do? No, because I wanted to find out whether it would make sense for me to become a member or not. You might say, with some right, that I could have found out that simply by affiliating. Yes, I could. But I am too suspicious as not to check out as much as possible beforehand. And, last but not least, see it the positive way: I saved the time of at least one of your colleagues by not affiliating. Because about one thing, we probably agree: that my way of understanding Set and Setianism would not go too well with the TOS. If we agree about that one, then you will have to admit that I do see the differences between your Setianism and mine. OK?

But well, that does not mean that we could not discuss things. Actually, I do not plan to repeat that debate over and over in every question, that would be boring and waste of time for both of us. I take the time for elaborating where we both stand, and appreciate your effort to do the same. What I have in mind in the following: that we both know how to interpret things the other one writes because we know what the reality tunnel if the other one is like. This means not that we would give up our points of view - none of us will convince the other one. But understanding is what I am thinking of, and understanding does not necessarily mean sharing the opinion. Agreed?

 

[KHPR]

But well, that does not mean that we could not discuss things. Actually, I do not plan to repeat that debate over and over in every question, that would be boring and waste of time for both of us. I take the time for elaborating where we both stand, and appreciate your effort to do the same. What I have in mind in the following: that we both know how to interpret things the other one writes because we know what the reality tunnel if the other one is like. This means not that we would give up our points of view - none of us will convince the other one. But understanding is what I am thinking of, and understanding does not necessarily mean sharing the opinion. Agreed?

Then we have an accord :yes:

 

[Valor]

Daelach, i must say i really enjoyed your Setian mission (honeymoon). You did a great job in explaining and the pics said enough. I may go next year, i can say I'm pretty well traveled, Italy 4x (family), Japan, Iceland, Europe...yes... but never been to Egypt. My wife doesn't enjoy the desert climate, but she's got news coming to her! I'll blame it on you my friend, and leave it there. lol We are going...

OK...got some very saddening news. I may not join the Temple of Set. This is because when i was 20 years old, well over 10 years ago, i just met a girl and we (excuse the terminology) "made out and felt eachother up" (nothing more and without any force of course) one night by a moon-lit pond...only to find out she was 16 yrs old hours later!!! (her dad found out) LOL, So since it was deemed a felony for statutory indecent, i served probation. Kids being kids... i had no clue, my goodness, she looked older than me. Sincerely.

I consider my self rather intelligent, university level. But if I've known...:run:However, since i failed to use better 20 year old "horny boy" judgment, I may not become affiliated with the Temple. Sad, very sad indeed. My only hope is that the HP See's that i was just a immature harmless lad. Otherwise i'll become a Ronin of Set.

 

[Daelach]

Daelach, i must say i really enjoyed your Setian mission (honeymoon). You did a great job in explaining and the pics said enough.

Thanks!

My wife doesn't enjoy the desert climate

Neither do I, nor my wife. But hey, it could be worse. Like, being in the desert with 25kg of military equipment on you with only a non-airconditioned tank to retreat into. Not to forget enemy fire. And even that could be worse - with friendly fire. So just take a bit of sunblocker and be happy (-;

Btw, for any TOS member with plans to travel to upper Egypt: Mag. Adams mentioned contact with Dr. Hawass. I tried to get into the tomb of Seti I, which is closed due to restauration works. It was impossible. The guards did not have a key (for good reasons!), and the director said that he would not let us in unless we had a written authorisation by.. Dr. Hawass. No "inofficial" way. But this tomb is probably the most beautiful of them all. So if you want to see it, plan ahead and use your contacts!

My only hope is that the HP See's that i was just a immature harmless lad.

You should not see this in a context of extended punishment. The US are still experiencing a very strong fundamentalistic Xtian movement, and the TOS might again get into their radar like in the 80s. In the moment, the pedo-hysteria is really high, and even something actually relatively harmless as your story might turn into a PR desaster for any group which the public audience would consider as "freaky". Or, in the case of the TOS, even as "Satanic". It is not, of course, but the media would not care. Remember that the mass media are not interesting in presenting the truth, but scandals that sell. They may even go as far as to lie.

So the point may not only be what you have made of yourself, but also whether your past can represent a threat to the group with respect to ill media.

Otherwise i'll become a Ronin of Set.

Hey, that does not sound bad, either. Would be a lot of work, but possible. You will see which way will be open and which shut. Whatever happens, do not surrender, and make the best of it.

 

[Kenaz]

You should not see this in a context of extended punishment. The US are still experiencing a very strong fundamentalistic Xtian movement, and the TOS might again get into their radar like in the 80s. In the moment, the pedo-hysteria is really high, and even something actually relatively harmless as your story might turn into a PR desaster for any group which the public audience would consider as "freaky". Or, in the case of the TOS, even as "Satanic". It is not, of course, but the media would not care. Remember that the mass media are not interesting in presenting the truth, but scandals that sell. They may even go as far as to lie.

This is very true, and unfortunate but it is the current reality of it. The *majority* of the human population is heavily influenced and inherently "controlled" by external means (ie: media influence, popular cultural/social morals, scare/fear tactics, endless examples). Everyone, including all of us are influenced.. the difference is we are *conscious* of it, and Work to Become Isolate from that and to Empower our own more Individual and Isolate Self and Reality. That is what, at least to me, makes the LHP Initiate apart from the rest of the population, and the endless Work of the Initiate.