Do you understand the New Testament

[free spirit]

The authors are the authors. God may be the inspiration, but God is in no way "the Author." Those authors wrote several documents, which were, at a much later time, agreed upon by the Roman and Eastern churches and compiled into a collection of "the texts we can read in church." Each canon differs from the others, at least slightly.

Yes, but if God gives the inspiration he is the guide of the writer, I know that he gives the inspiration and he leaves you to expressed as you know best, so it is actually a combine effort. Yes he has to be patient with the writer, and the writer has to listen to the still and gentle word, for it is an elusive experience, you do not quit know if is the Lord or your mind; but if what you have written is confirmed by the existing word then you have a revelation.

Does your Bible contain, for example, the gospel of Thomas? Or the Didache? Or any of the Maccabees? Or Tobit? Or the Esdras? God "wrote" those books, too.

I have read the gospel of Thomas, and I can assure you it is totally crap.The New Testament contains the true word of God. But unfortunately at some stage of coming together as a book someone has introduced heresies an lies, and altered the sequence within the Epistles as the following article clearly demonstrates.
(VI) The following example will demonstrate to you, that inbuilt sequential confusion is also present in the Scriptures: In John 20 – 23, we read: “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
This commission that the Lord has given to the disciples is exercised by the Catholic, the Orthodox Church and a few others denominations, but most of them do not do that. Maybe these denominations do not forgive sins, because of the lack of demonstrating example in the epistles. We all know that we have to forgive those that sin against us, the Lord’s Prayer is very clear on the matter. But who forgives those that sin against their own conscience and the body of Christ?

I am certain that in 2nd Corinthians between chapter 1 – 16, and chapter 2 – 11, there is an hidden example of the administration of this important sacrament, ministered by Paul to the Corinthians, the problem in recognising it as such, lays in the undeniable fact that part of the explanation of this sacrament has been moved from its original place, so that its significant content would appear to be directed at something else. I pray you therefore, to follow me with patience, and I am certain you will see.

If we read 2nd Corinthians 1 – 16, followed by verse 23, we realise that those verses are united by the line of thought of the subject (the visit) that Paul is clarifying to them. And this line of thought continues slowly changing into another subject, but it is uninterrupted till chapter 2 – 11. And if then we go back to chapter 1 – 17, and read until verse 22 we again find that the line of thought of Paul and the new subject (forgiven sin,) also continues uninterrupted and Paul’s ministry becomes clear also. Arranging these scriptures in that order the truth will become obvious, for these last six verses (17 to 22) are not united to the promise of Paul to visit them, but they are united to the promise of God to forgive sins through the anointed disciples.
The verses in question have been written below in the explained above order.

We read in 2nd Corinthians 1 – 16, “That is to pass your way into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and by you to be helped on my journey to Judea.
1 – 23. But I call God as witness to my soul, that to spare you I come no more to Corinth. Not that we lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm. But I determine this for my own sake that I would not come to you in sorrow again. For if I cause you sorrow, who then makes me glad but the one whom I made sorrowful? And this is the very thing I wrote you, lest, when I come, I should have sorrow from those who ought to make me rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy would be the joy of you all. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you with many tears; not that you should be made sorrowful, but that you might know the love which I have especially for you. But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree in order not to say too much to all of you. Sufficient for such a one is this punishment, which was inflicted by the majority, so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, lest somehow such a one be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. For to this end also I wrote that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. But whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven. I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, in order that no advantage be taken of us by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
1 – 17. Therefore, I was not vacillating when I intended to do this, was I? Or that which I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yes, yes and no, no at the same time? But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. For the son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us, by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not yes and no, but is yes in him. For as many as may be the promises of God, in him they are yes; wherefore also by him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. Now he who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”

As you can see, these last six verses are too deep in significance to be addressing a simple promise of Paul to visit them. But, in this last six verses Paul is declaring to them that his forgiveness is solid, because it is not according to the flesh, but the yes resided on the promise of God, and like all other promises the yes are in Christ. And his authority is a gift of an anointing from God.

 

[sojourner]

Wow lets just throw God out of everything then huh? Yes those churches did "choose" by inspiration which books are to be in the bible and they also were perverted by satan to add other books that dont stay within the "theme" of the rest of the Word thats why the catholic church continue to have i think 77 books in their bible that have brougth about more false doctrines like praying to Mary for forgiveness instead of God Himself....Hmmmm do you see the connection yet? Those books were dropped, why? because they pervert the "theme" of the scriptures. God inspired those books to be dropped or not included, but you will still throw out God for man.

LOL the didache? lol really thats a good one.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you! There are several canons other than the Roman, you know. The Eastern canon is larger than the Roman, and the Ethiopian is largest. Plus, the "extra" books in the Roman canon have absolutely nothing to do with Marian devotion. In fact, those books -- all OT -- do not present any "new doctrine," other than what is presented by the Protestant canon. Those books were dropped for reasons other than that "they pervert the 'theme' of the scriptures." God had nothing to do with the Protestants dropping them, IMO.

Yes. The Didache. The earliest set of "sacramental instruction" we have. It ought to be in there -- at least appended!:yes:

 

[sojourner]

you do not quit know if is the Lord or your mind;

God is the mind.

if what you have written is confirmed by the existing word then you have a revelation.

The Bible isn't revelation so much as it is witness.

I have read the gospel of Thomas, and I can assure you it is totally crap.

ROFL;PMP
Hoo, boy! That was a lollapalooza! I haven't laughed that hard since John Hagee said that the Mississippi River flood of '93 was God's divine retribution for river boat gambling.

Hahahahahahaha! Thomas "totally crap" indeed! Hahahahahahaha!

Hoo!

::wipes eyes with hanky; takes deep shuddering breath::

::bursts into another guffaw and falls over backward in chair::

The New Testament contains the true word of God. But unfortunately at some stage of coming together as a book someone has introduced heresies an lies, and altered the sequence within the Epistles as the following article clearly demonstrates.

First of all, neither the Roman Catholic, nor Orthodox Church forgives sin. They do sacramentalize God's forgiveness of sin, and pronounce that forgiveness on God's behalf.

Please cite the source of your article. Plagiarism isn't pretty.

 

[AK4]

You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you! There are several canons other than the Roman, you know. The Eastern canon is larger than the Roman, and the Ethiopian is largest. Plus, the "extra" books in the Roman canon have absolutely nothing to do with Marian devotion. In fact, those books -- all OT -- do not present any "new doctrine," other than what is presented by the Protestant canon. Those books were dropped for reasons other than that "they pervert the 'theme' of the scriptures." God had nothing to do with the Protestants dropping them, IMO.

Yes. The Didache. The earliest set of "sacramental instruction" we have. It ought to be in there -- at least appended!:yes:

The didache has many heretical teachings and rituals. It puts alot of emphasis on the the doctrine of the trinity and yet you think this should be considered as a sacred and holy book? Geesh you might as well accept the divinci code. The emphasis on rituals contradicts the "theme" of "worshipping in spirit and truth".

If God had wanted them to be part of the holy scriptures He would have made it that way along with all those other books you hold "sacred".

 

[AK4]

The point is, the best translation for eis aionas aionon would get across the sense of the accusative extent/duration of time with the emphasised by the genitive, a clear expression of eternity.

Why is it that you people ignore the rules and principles God laid out on how to understand and interpret the scriptures. Do the phrase "no scripture is of its own interpretation" mean anything to you? Show me a spiritual match to that Revelation verse that shows that that verse could mean eternity and provide a second witness. And im talking about scripture not a bible verse. *holding breath*. To say that that verse expresses eternity clearly violates the gospel.

 

[AK4]

Originally Posted by free spirit


Quote:
Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

These are Christians who “worship” Him as not being the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” because of the doctrine of hell in which they change the meaning of just a couple of words. They worship Jesus in vain. They worship Him as a trinity because words were added to translations. They worship Him by saying “He shall reign for ever and ever” which is unscriptural again because of the changing of the words. Its these “little” wrangling of words that make a BIG difference. When Christ says that they worship Him in vain He basically is saying that there is a wrong way to worship Him. Do you think those who worship Him wrong (maybe because of a little word or phrase) will make it in the kingdom?


it does not matter, or matter little, for eternity of eternity, means a long time that is all.

"it does not matter, or matter little, for eternity of eternity, means a long time that is all." Are you serious? Say that to those who will be tormented for eternity, if that were true. Besides eternity and time are NOT the same thing. Just look up the definitions.

Please step back and look, there is the written word, and there is the Spirit of Christ in your heart. What is in your heart is stronger than that which is written. .

What is written should be in your heart. How are you trying to seperate them. Christ is the Word and if Christ is in you so is His Word. You are getting in a sort of trinity here trying to seperate them. How is one stronger than the other? They are ONE.


in other words if you are Holy the written lie does not change your Holiness

So if you are holy and you believe a written lie...uhh you cant even say this because its a contradiction. If you are holy you would see through the lie and see it as it is right? And it should matter to you to know that it is blaspheming God with the lie. You would see how that lie perverts the rest of scripture and utterly damages the gospel. etc etc etc


You speak like one that does not know God nor felt Christ presence in your thinking at any time. Peter and Paul are confirmed apostles of God, and if you know their history, and the protection that Christ gives to his servants you would not say they probably did that, i tell you it is impossible for them to have done that. Because when the Holy Spirit comes in your heart you change, you see the world through a new pare of eyes. You know that you are in this world but you are not longer of the world. If someone tells you that your father is a murderer would you believe him just because it has been written in the news paper? Your spirit will tell you otherwise if you really know your father.

You speak as a feel good christain. As one that believes in the 10 second sinners prayer and think that once you accept Jesus you are saved and no more worries. Thats nonsense. Jesus would not had addressed all the churches in Revelations and tell them to endure till the end if this was so. Paul, Peter and all the rest of the apostles state the same thing of enduring and overcoming and holding fast to what you have because you can lose it. Jesus states this in the parable of the talents. etc etc etc. You are speaking as one who doesnt really know all the scriptures and as one still caught in the web of traditional christainity or as the the catholics would say protestantism.

Yes the Spirit will testify to your spirit on what is truth. Do you test that spirit? To the scriptures of course. Does what that spirit tell you stand up to all of the Word of God? To believe Peter slipped for a minute is not far-fetched or out of what scripture says could happen. Ha an example "popped" in my head-- The prophet (yup a prophet) somewhere in the OT didnt do as God told him and for disobey God command another prophet told that prophet "this is what the Lord says since you didnt heed to my word...." and God killed him with a lion.

You might wanna test this spirit you claim to have? Heck even test what i am saying. Next time i will use multiple scriptures to show you are in error.

 

[sojourner]

The didache has many heretical teachings and rituals. It puts alot of emphasis on the the doctrine of the trinity and yet you think this should be considered as a sacred and holy book? Geesh you might as well accept the divinci code. The emphasis on rituals contradicts the "theme" of "worshipping in spirit and truth".

If God had wanted them to be part of the holy scriptures He would have made it that way along with all those other books you hold "sacred".

Heretical??? The Trinity is not heretical. It is orthodox. What could you be thinking???!!!:cover:

The emphasis is on ritual, because ritual helps us to order a sequence of events that carries meaning. You obviously don't know what the word "worship" means. At all. Or you wouldn't have made this statement.

 

[sojourner]

Why is it that you people ignore the rules and principles God laid out on how to understand and interpret the scriptures. Do the phrase "no scripture is of its own interpretation" mean anything to you? Show me a spiritual match to that Revelation verse that shows that that verse could mean eternity and provide a second witness. And im talking about scripture not a bible verse. *holding breath*. To say that that verse expresses eternity clearly violates the gospel.

Y' know, the Greek is what it is. The Greek word is translated as "eternity." You don't need scriptural context in order to understand the definition of a known Greek word that has a standard English equivalent.
"We people" are the ones who make it possible for "you people" to read the Bible in English, in the first place.

 

[Oberon]

Why is it that you people ignore the rules and principles God laid out on how to understand and interpret the scriptures.

Why is it that you are telling me what a greek phrase means when you don't know greek?

Show me a spiritual match to that Revelation verse that shows that that verse could mean eternity and provide a second witness.

A spiritual match? What are you talking about?

To say that that verse expresses eternity clearly violates the gospel.

To say that it doesn't clearly violates the greek itself. It says what it says, and "into the eternities of eternities" means "forever."

 

[free spirit]

God is the mind.

Not really

The Bible isn't revelation so much as it is witness.

It is more like a confirmation of what you have been given.

ROFL;PMP
Hoo, boy! That was a lollapalooza! I haven't laughed that hard since John Hagee said that the Mississippi River flood of '93 was God's divine retribution for river boat gambling.
Hahahahahahaha! Thomas "totally crap" indeed! Hahahahahahaha!
Hoo!
::wipes eyes with hanky; takes deep shuddering breath::
::bursts into another guffaw and falls over backward in chair::

If it wasn't so serious I would laugh with you.

First of all, neither the Roman Catholic, nor Orthodox Church forgives sin. They do sacramentalize God's forgiveness of sin, and pronounce that forgiveness on God's behalf.

Yes, and Paul was given the authority to forgive sins on God's behalf.

Please cite the source of your article. Plagiarism isn't pretty

.
All that you read from me is my work: I only copy from the bible, the New American Standard to be exact, and to be precise the publication from 1960 to 1977, all the rest serve their own unspecified interests.
obviously you do not disagree with my article.
By the end of the year I am hopeing to publish my book, I will let you know in due time.

 

[sojourner]

It is more like a confirmation of what you have been given.

It is more like the witness of God's people, written down and preserved.

If it wasn't so serious I would laugh with you.

What's serious is that you actually believe it's crap.

All that you read from me is my work

I can see why you didn't cite the source...

obviously you do not disagree with my article.

I wouldn't say that.

 

[free spirit]

Originally Posted by free spirit

Do you really like to know what is worship? Then read the article below with care. And you will find that is your attitude that is important, as I said before I sympathize with you about the errors in the scriptures, but the problem does not end there.
Quote:

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

These are Christians who “worship” Him as not being the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” because of the doctrine of hell in which they change the meaning of just a couple of words. They worship Jesus in vain. They worship Him as a trinity because words were added to translations. They worship Him by saying “He shall reign for ever and ever” which is unscriptural again because of the changing of the words. Its these “little” wrangling of words that make a BIG difference. When Christ says that they worship Him in vain He basically is saying that there is a wrong way to worship Him. Do you think those who worship Him wrong (maybe because of a little word or phrase) will make it in the kingdom?

EFFECTIVE WORSHIP

We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4 – 20 – 26: “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her. “Woman believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and truth; for such people the father seeks to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, (he who is called Christ when that one comes he will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?

Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.

In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately man’s imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.

It isn’t difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefront of our lives, if anything it is his ever-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.

For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.


So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)

We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3 – 5 – 6, records the advent: “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.” And Genesis 3 – 22, confirms what took place. “Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”

Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small “g” because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body, in our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, “for the body without the spirit is dead.” Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.

We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.

A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to one’s own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures “You shall be holy, for I am holy” is an invitation to fellowship with him.

Go to post 473 to continue

 

[free spirit]

From post 472


Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 – 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.

However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)

On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 – 2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”

To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s truth. Hebrews 10 – 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”

Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”

At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12 – 1 – 2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.

Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)

As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.

The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.

Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Glory to God

 

[free spirit]

It is more like the witness of God's people, written down and preserved.

What's serious is that you actually believe it's crap.

Yes it is poison.
I can see why you didn't cite the source...

I wouldn't say that.[/quote

]

Coming from you, I take it as a compliment.

 

[sojourner]

Yes it is poison.

And tomatoes are poisonous love-apples...

Coming from you, I take it as a compliment.

Thank you! All donations will be confiscated!

With regard to your thoughts on worship:
Attitude does matter greatly. It is the very act -- ritual, words, postures, order -- of worship that creates anew the mind and body, carving away the superfluities that keep us from being acceptable vessels. We don't purify ourselves in order to worship; rather, worship is the act that
purifies us for service.

 

[free spirit]

And tomatoes are poisonous love-apples...

Thank you! All donations will be confiscated!

With regard to your thoughts on worship:
Attitude does matter greatly.
Yes it does, for our attitude is the Spirit in which we are in.
Luke 18: 13, "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God be merciful to me, the sinner."'

It is the very act -- ritual, words, postures, order -- of worship that creates anew the mind and body, carving away the superfluities that keep us from being acceptable vessels.

They may be important to a religious person, and no doubt has a significance of service. it is like the prime minister and the King, compared to the King and his son; the prime minister has a ritual to go through, but the King and the son has no ritual.

We don't purify ourselves in order to worship; rather, worship is the act that
purifies us for service.

Glory to God, here is another thing we agree on, if we go on like this in time there would no longer be a debate between us.

 

[sojourner]

Yes it does, for our attitude is the Spirit in which we are in.

The ritual, words, posture, order, sacramentals, etc. are not efficacious in and of themselves, but are, rather, tools to order and brighten the mind, body and spirit. If the attitude is not such that the tools can do their job, the tools remain ineffectual.

However, it is not the attitude alone that constitutes worship. Rather, it is the attitude in concert with the application of the tools.

 

[free spirit]

The ritual, words, posture, order, sacramentals, etc. are not efficacious in and of themselves, but are, rather, tools to order and brighten the mind, body and spirit. If the attitude is not such that the tools can do their job, the tools remain ineffectual.

However, it is not the attitude alone that constitutes worship. Rather, it is the attitude in concert with the application of the tools.

Generally speaking yes, because our body language has to be in tune with our attitude.
But I have never experienced ritual bliss. Maybe because I am not in the ministry
But I have experienced the presence of God.

 

[AK4]

Y' know, the Greek is what it is. The Greek word is translated as "eternity." You don't need scriptural context in order to understand the definition of a known Greek word that has a standard English equivalent.
"We people" are the ones who make it possible for "you people" to read the Bible in English, in the first place.

Lol!!! Its "you people" who have corrupted and enslaved and caused man to blaspheme the name of God. Its Because of "you peoples" erroneous theology and interpretations have kept mankind from believing the gospel. Read Whence Eternity and this and wake up!!!

KEEPING THE DUMB SHEEP DUMB

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Since none of these things which the Jews of Jesus’ day believed were taught in the Law of Moses, just where did the Jews learn of these pagan doctrines?
Most theologians are clearly deceived, however, not all are ignorant. Many theologians know at least some of the material I am presenting to you. But they don’t want you to know or understand any of it. It has been the purpose of the ruling privileged elite to keep the masses at bay by evil indoctrinations, deceptions, and gross fear.
From Thayer’s "Doctrine of Eternal Punishment," we read the following:

"Any one at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, cannot fail to not see how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the INVENTIONS of the legislator and the priest, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people [AKA—‘The DUMB SHEEP’]. Hence, all the early lawgivers claim to have had communications with the gods, who aided them in the preparation of their codes.
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The object of this SACRED FRAUD was to impress the minds of the multitude with religious awe, and command a more ready obedience on their part. Hence Augustine says, in his ‘City of God,’ ‘This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, TO DECEIVE THE PEOPLE IN THEIR RELIGION; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things [to be] true, which THEY THEMSELVES KNEW TO BE IDLE FABLES; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society,’ B.iV 32."
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There are countless Historians who have clearly come to see the fraudulent origins of most of today’s religious doctrines (Christianity first and foremost).
From Bishop Warburton:

"Hence, they [priests and lawyers] enforced the belief of a future state of reward and punishments by every sort of contrivance."
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And it is EGYPT that is the originator of these gross and evil doctrines of eternal torture after death of the souls which supposedly cannot die.
The Egyptian priests and legislators invented these damnable heresies, and the Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans thought it was the best thing that ever happened to them since homemade chocolate fudge. What a clever and inexpensive way to keep the people in constant fear of their religious and civil leaders!
Historians have called Egypt, "The MOTHER OF SUPERSTITIONS." Does "Mystery Babylon the Great, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, and the abominations of the earth" come to mind when you read that?
Greek and Roman lawyers, philosophers, and priests, acknowledge their indebtedness to Egypt in this respect, and freely credit her with the ORIGINAL INVENTION OF THE FABLES AND TERRORS of the invisible world; though it must be allowed that they have improved somewhat upon the hints given, and shown a wonderful inventive faculty of their own. (Paraphrased from some of Thayer’s material).
So, how did they keep the dumb sheep in line? By filling their heads with visions of eternal torture in fire if they didn’t obey every whim of their religious and civil leaders.

"How LONG, ye simple ones [Heb: ‘silly, seducible, foolish, naﶥ’] will ye love simplicity [Heb: ‘silliness, seductiveness, foolishness, naﶥte’]? And the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?" (Prov. 1:22).
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Yes, how true: "…fools HATE knowledge." I do my best to free people from the spiritual dictators over their lives, but often they not only hate the knowledge that I give them, but they also hate me for teaching them.

"My people have been lost sheep: THEIR SHEPHERDS HAVE CAUSED THEM TO GO ASTRAY…" (Jer. 50:6).
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Does even one in two billion Christians believe that this verse of Scripture is true? Oh, I almost forgot…this Scripture was written to only the physical Jews of old (we must always consult the Christian orthodox god of "context, context, context"), and therefore this verse has absolutely no relevance to the Church today. I speak as a fool:

"Now ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENED UNTO THEM [For example: ‘The SHEPHERDS causing the sheep to go astray’ under the Old Covenant] for examples [Of how the Shepherds are ‘causing the sheep to go astray’ under the New Covenant] and they are written for OUR ADMONITION [We who are ‘Jews inwardly’—spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:29)], upon whom the ends of the ages are come" (I Cor. 10:11).
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"The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means and My people LOVE TO HAVE IT SO…" (Jer. 5:31).
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Unbelievable… UNBELIEVABLE. I watch ministers on television use, and abuse, and accuse their congregations, over and over again. And do they get up and walk out? NO… they APPLAUD That’s right, they applaud the abuse of their ministers. "The priests bear rule by their means [by their forced coercion], and they LOVE TO HAVE IT SO…"
Did the Church learn these pagans heresies from God or from Egypt?’’

"WOE to the rebellious children, saith the Lord, that take counsel, but NOT OF ME; and that cover with a covering [Heb: ‘devise a plan, weave a web’], but not of My spirit, that they may add sin to sin: that walk to go down to EGYPT, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of EGYPT! Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your CONFUSION…
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That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceit. Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us" (Isa. 30:1-3 & 9-11).
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The prayer of Israel, and today’s church, is to "cause the Holy One of Israel to CEASE FROM BEFORE US." Oh they don’t consciously think that that is what they are praying for, but that is, nonetheless, what they want. They want "smooth things," they want their prophets to prophesy "deceit." They don’t want the truth: "They can’t HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

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[AK4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojourner
Y' know, the Greek is what it is. The Greek word is translated as "eternity." You don't need scriptural context in order to understand the definition of a known Greek word that has a standard English equivalent.
"We people" are the ones who make it possible for "you people" to read the Bible in English, in the first place.


Here have some more

Polybius, the historian, says:

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." B. vi 56.
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Dionysius Halicarnassus treats the whole matter as useful, but not as true. Antiq. Rom., B. ii Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as

"a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace." Hist., I 19.
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Strabo, the geographer, says:

"The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Geog., B. I
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Timaeus Locrus, the Pythagorean, after stating that the doctrine of rewards and punishments after death is necessary to society, proceeds as follows:

"For as we sometimes cure the body with unwholesome remedies, when such as are most wholesome produce no effect, so we restrain those minds with false relations, which will not be persuaded by the truth. There is a necessity, therefore, of instilling the dread of those foreign torments: 10as that the soul changes its habitation; that the coward is ignominiously thrust into the body of a woman; the murderer imprisoned within the form of a savage beast; the vain and inconstant changed into birds, and the slothful and ignorant into fishes."
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Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments.
And Strabo says that

"Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future judgments of hell" (Hades).
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And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments.
Plato himself is exceedingly inconsistent, sometimes adopting, even in his serious discourses, the fables of the poets, and at other times rejecting them as utterly false, and giving too frightful views of the invisible world. Sometimes, he argues, on social grounds, that they are necessary to restrain bad men from wickedness and crime, and then again he protests against them on political grounds, as intimidating the citizens, and making cowards of the soldiers, who, believing these things, are afraid of death, and do not therefore fight well. But all this shows in what light he regarded them; not as truths, certainly, but as fictions, convenient in some cases, but difficult to manage in others.
Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them "fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses."
Seneca says:

"Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us with vain terrors." Sextus Empiricus calls them "poetic fables of hell;" and Cicero speaks of them as "silly absurdities and fables" (ineptiis ac fabulis).
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Aristotle.

"It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state." Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7. 11
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Another quote from Thomas Thayer’s paper on The Doctrine of Everlasting Punishment:

"Anyone at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, [who admittedly received their basis doctrine of hell from Egypt] cannot fail to note how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the INVENTIONS OF THE LEGISLATOR AND THE PRIES, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people [commonly called ‘dumb sheep’]."
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Hence Augustine [considered by many to be the greatest theologian in history] says, in his ‘City of God,’

"This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to DECEIVE THE PEOPLE IN THEIR RELIGION; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves KNEW TO BE IDLE FABLES; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." (All CAPS emphasis is mine).
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My, how well this religious deception of the masses continues to be in the 21st century.

I pray someone from your congo reads this and

Re 18:4 - Come out of her, my people,
Re 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.