Do you feel guilty for your carnal desires?

[Caladan]

What if you get drunk, hop in your car, and then run over a crowd of children at a crosswalk?

Wouldnt that get you bonus points?

 

[frg001]

I think what happens with most of us is we remember the times our feelings of guilt have been spot on, but forget the times they've been ridiculous. Moreover, most of us don't look very closely at senseless guilt -- we simply dismiss it before it's grown and has a memorable impact on us. But I am convinced that were you or most anyone else to take a close and dispassionate look at the all the times you experience guilt over the course of a couple weeks, you would find that far and away most twinges of guilt are useless as moral guides. Perhaps you should try keeping a journal for a few weeks -- as I have done -- in which you record each instance of guilt you feel. I'm pretty sure when you re-read your journal at the end of two or three weeks, you will see most experiences of guilt are not good guides to morality.

As I said, I think you are right that many people feel guilt for unnecessary things. But you are also right to mention that these times, we come to realize they are ridiculous... the very fact that keeping a journal may highlight them shows that. The guilt we feel that is justified, tends to stay with us...and is very useful.

 

[Sunstone]

What if you get drunk, hop in your car, and then run over a crowd of children at a crosswalk?

Please allow me to repeat myself, Bill, as a favor to you. As I said in an earlier post, guilt, like a broken watch, is sometimes right. But it's not right often enough to be reasonably considered a moral guide. This has been my observation of my own feelings of guilt -- perhaps your own close and dispassionate observations would differ.

 

[Sunstone]

As I said, I think you are right that many people feel guilt for unnecessary things. But you are also right to mention that these times, we come to realize they are ridiculous... the very fact that keeping a journal may highlight them shows that. The guilt we feel that is justified, tends to stay with us...and is very useful.

Why do we feel the guilt that tends to stay with us is justified? I would submit we feel that way because we are judging guilt against some other moral compass than guilt itself. In other words, we don't need guilt to know what's moral and what isn't, nor can we rely on guilt to tell us what is moral and what isn't. As a moral guide, guilt is useless.

 

[Caladan]

Why do we feel the guilt that tends to stay with us is justified? I would submit we feel that way because we are judging guilt against some other moral compass than guilt itself. In other words, we don't need guilt to know what's moral and what isn't, nor can we rely on guilt to tell us what is moral and what isn't.

Nicely put.

 

[frg001]

Why do we feel the guilt that tends to stay with us is justified? I would submit we feel that way because we are judging guilt against some other moral compass than guilt itself. In other words, we don't need guilt to know what's moral and what isn't, nor can we rely on guilt to tell us what is moral and what isn't. As a moral guide, guilt is useless.

Not for me it isn't. It has made me the person I am.
As I said, the watch analogy is irrelevant. The brain processes out the invalid guilty feelings, and you are left only feeling guilty for things you feel are important. A very good moral guide if you ask me.

Why do I feel it is justified? We all feel certain guilt and shame for things we have done. If that feeling remains then at least you yourself must feel it is justified, even if it isn't.

 

[Sunstone]

Not for me it isn't. It has made me the person I am.

Then be happy, my friend! But what works for you apparently does not work for me. I guess we must leave it at that.

As I said, the watch analogy is irrelevant. The brain processes out the invalid guilty feelings, and you are left only feeling guilty for things you feel are important. A very good moral guide if you ask me.

I am convinced you have misunderstood the point I made, and consequently, are not addressing it. Perhaps this will help you see the point: The very fact the brain processes out the invalid guilty feelings is evidence that guilt is not needed as a moral guide.

Why do I feel it is justified? We all feel certain guilt and shame for things we have done. If that feeling remains then at least you yourself must feel it is justified, even if it isn't.

But the key here is to identify why I -- or anyone else -- would feel some guilt is justified. Surely there is nothing about guilt itself that tells us whether a feeling of guilt is justified? If you wish to argue that, then we will simply need to agree to disagree because that plainly contradicts what I have myself observed.

 

[frg001]

Then be happy, my friend! But what works for you apparently does not work for me. I guess we must leave it at that.



I am convinced you have misunderstood the point I made, and consequently, are not addressing it. Perhaps this will help you see the point: The very fact the brain processes out the invalid guilty feelings is evidence that guilt is not needed as a moral guide.



But the key here is to identify why I -- or anyone else -- would feel some guilt is justified. Surely there is nothing about guilt itself that tells us whether a feeling of guilt is justified? If you wish to argue that, then we will simply need to agree to disagree because that plainly contradicts what I have myself observed.

Of course the way we process guilt is very personal, and unique to each of us, but I can only go from experience and the feelings of guilt that persist in my consciousness.

Justification is also personal. A man who runs down a child who runs from nowhere may be totally innocent...He wasn't speeding, he wasn't daydreaming. The child appears and *bang* The man will almost certainly feel unjustified guilt. But this is an extreme example.
A simpler example, and personal to me...
Most children do some nasty things to small animals and insects...I was no different, magnifying glass on ants, pulling legs off spiders etc... But a very poignant time in my life, and one I regard as a bit of a "coming of age", is when I picked up a small frog, and shoved its head into a pile of mud. I was around 10 at the time. The frog screamed (like a baby). I pulled it out and threw it in the water. From that moment on I realized the importance of not only not mistreating animals, but also the importance of life itself, my own life, and everyones around me. I still feel guilty for what I was doing, and without a doubt that guilt gave me a very valuable moral lesson.
Nowadays, as I mentioned, I really don't feel guilt where it isn't necessary, at least not for more than a fleeting moment, and then it is gone.

Back to the OT, I am sure many people who manage not to act on carnal desires outside their relationship do it not only out of a sense of duty, but out of a sense of guilt. I have cheated in the past, and the day after I felt so bad I vowed never to do it again. It is a feeling of guilt, for something I know is wrong that gave me that moral lesson. And unless I am strangely unique, I am certain it works that way for many others.

 

[Sunstone]

Of course the way we process guilt is very personal, and unique to each of us, but I can only go from experience and the feelings of guilt that persist in my consciousness.

Justification is also personal. A man who runs down a child who runs from nowhere may be totally innocent...He wasn't speeding, he wasn't daydreaming. The child appears and *bang* The man will almost certainly feel unjustified guilt. But this is an extreme example.
A simpler example, and personal to me...
Most children do some nasty things to small animals and insects...I was no different, magnifying glass on ants, pulling legs off spiders etc... But a very poignant time in my life, and one I regard as a bit of a "coming of age", is when I picked up a small frog, and shoved its head into a pile of mud. I was around 10 at the time. The frog screamed (like a baby). I pulled it out and threw it in the water. From that moment on I realized the importance of not only not mistreating animals, but also the importance of life itself, my own life, and everyones around me. I still feel guilty for what I was doing, and without a doubt that guilt gave me a very valuable moral lesson.
Nowadays, as I mentioned, I really don't feel guilt where it isn't necessary, at least not for more than a fleeting moment, and then it is gone.

Back to the OT, I am sure many people who manage not to act on carnal desires outside their relationship do it not only out of a sense of duty, but out of a sense of guilt. I have cheated in the past, and the day after I felt so bad I vowed never to do it again. It is a feeling of guilt, for something I know is wrong that gave me that moral lesson. And unless I am strangely unique, I am certain it works that way for many others.

I think at this point we would be merely repeating ourselves to continue, so perhaps it is best if we leave it here, with the two of us in disagreement about the usefulness of guilt. Nevertheless, it has been an interesting conversation --- thanks for that!

 

[Reverend Rick]

Excuses! Excuses! You could have plucked out your eyes

Plagiarism plain and simple. :sorry1:

 

[Guitar's Cry]

As a person with a partner, whether married or not, do you feel guilty when you have mental desires for other people other than your partner?

Do you think this is a sin? Do you feel the need to repent, or feel dirty?

No to all of the above.

Desire is a manifestation of being alive. To enjoy it is to live.

 

[Darkwater]

Some people would need to repress, pervert and stifle their natural inclinations in order to only love one person in their lives, though. I don't think that's the optimal course of action for them.

*Puts on UPS shorts & shirt,chaps door of beautiful brunette in Dallas Area*

:flirt:

try & be *more ready* next time he presents himself(there will surely be a next time)

 

[Father Heathen]

Please allow me to repeat myself, Bill, as a favor to you. As I said in an earlier post, guilt, like a broken watch, is sometimes right. But it's not right often enough to be reasonably considered a moral guide. This has been my observation of my own feelings of guilt -- perhaps your own close and dispassionate observations would differ.

It's culture that makes that clock broken. Without guilt we would have no conscience, and without a conscience we would lack our own humanity. The fact that we feel guilt for things we shouldn't isn't a sign that guilt itself is at fault, but rather it's the irrational religious and cultural norms that indoctrinate us to feel bad about otherwise benign, natural, and innocent things. We however should feel bad when we hurt or wrong other people (or ourselves). It coincides with empathy. But like I said before, there is no reason to feel guilty about mere thoughts or desires alone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not really. I don't see a reason to be. No point in denying such a basic need.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I feel that there's no reason to feel guilty about such thoughts.

Thoughts are merely that. Expressions of who you are. Guilt indicates wrong-doing. While thoughts, first-off, aren't "doing", they certainly aren't "wrong". Guilt is, I feel, completely unnecessary when it comes to thinking about your own thoughts

 

[DallasApple]

*Puts on UPS shorts & shirt,chaps door of beautiful brunette in Dallas Area*

:flirt:

try & be *more ready* next time he presents himself(there will surely be a next time)

AYE !! YI YI YAI!

Your nothin but a sess pool of flirt!(dont you feel a little guilty about that?)

And besides..I can not "prepare" for what happened with the handsome UPS man.

I already said I couldnt help it..that I didnt do it on purpose.

And the next time..hopefully I will be wearing sunglasses.

Oh I forgot..This is really sad..That same thing happened with my obstetrician with my last child.(13 years ago)The only problem is when I saw him.."Dr.Robins"..I started praying he wasnt going to be my doctor.(I had never met him before and they had 3 Drs.in the practice)..I was hoping he wasnt "Dr.Robins"..and the nurse..asked me if I was "o.k" because my pulse rate was like 140 beats per minutes..(instead of like 70 0r 80) and I was shaking.I just told her I was having an anxiety attack..nervousness over going to the doctors and all that..She was concerned.

I spent the next 8 or so months in love with my obstetrician.I was like "star struck".

Again..I couldnt help it..

After the baby was born..I wen't for my last check up..And choking back tears I got a picture of me and him and the baby.(cuz I wasnt coming back for a year for an annual and I was going to miss him so bad)..I didnt know how I could live without seeing him.

I forgot about him in like 2 weeks(not completely because I still remember that feeling I had..and I still remember him)..When I went for my annual..(ya know the pap smear and all that)..I couldnt even identify with the fact I would have dumped my husband and been happy for him to divorce his wife and run off with me just a year earlier..It seemed absurd..I didnt want him..

Go figure..maybe it was the hormones..

Love

Dallas

 

[Darkwater]

Well,it is you who makes these guys manifest,then the law of attraction does the rest........then when you meet *him*,it is difficult.....my first words to my wife(of 15 years now) were*bah,gah,bleh goo,blah blah balh*

Her response to these was to look at me in the eyes real close & say *WHIT!*...

By which time I had formed something cool to say.

Truth is it didn't matter what I said,just how I said it........I had been struck by the *thunderbolt*which,as you say,is only a *temporary state of insanity*......once they *materialise*(that which you have made manifest),the rest is up to you.

Hold back from being heedless blurter,do what you have to do....do not let on your feelings,find out their heartmost desires(get them to tell you,talk only when you feel resonation for or against)communicate like hell.....pillow talk,

Eh,now it get's difficult for me as you are male & I am female....let the carnal thing build up for a while,concentrate upon communication as a relationship based on sex does not last.....

What you describe DA is way more sophisticated than carnal desire....maybe not? I class it as having 3 different girlfriends a weekend at my height as sex addict?

Opening line is not important,it is how you say it..body language.

Be ready,be cool...pre warned is pre-pared.

Great Love,

DW

 

[England my lionheart]

No to all of the above.

Desire is a manifestation of being alive. To enjoy it is to live.

No, why feel guilty,just because you are window shopping it does'nt mean you are buying and like you say,enjoy

 

[UnTheist]

No to all of the above.

Desire is a manifestation of being alive. To enjoy it is to live.

This.