Jewish group wants Mormons to stop proxy baptisms

[Caladan]

I am hardly a normal Mormon and I don't speak for the Church or any Mormons on the RF. I speak for myself and I stand by what I said.

That is good, its important to realize when you are damaging the image of your collective.

 

[zippythepinhead]

Jewish groups have been after the LDS Chruch on this for years :yawn:. Some of them want us to stop doing Jewish baptisms EVEN IF our direct ancestor/family member is related to a member of the Chruch. Time for some people to refocus methinks. The LDS Church is trying to hold up its end of the agreement. How do you babysit 13 million members on a mission to save those in the afterlife? You don't. You have to trust that someone, somewhere is obeying policy and rules.

 

[Caladan]

Jewish groups have been after the LDS Chruch on this for years :yawn:. Some of them want us to stop doing Jewish baptisms EVEN IF our direct ancestor/family member is related to a member of the Chruch. Time for some people to refocus methinks. The LDS Church is trying to hold up its end of the agreement. How do you babysit 13 million members on a mission to save those in the afterlife? You don't. You have to trust that someone, somewhere is obeying policy and rules.

In other words, no one is to take responsibility for violations in the agreement?
sometimes you need to know that the body you make agreements with is going to take responsibility for these agreements.

Im sorry to say that just the notion of being 'on a mission to save those in the afterlife' sounds bizarre. let the dead bury the dead.

 

[Scott C.]

Could you show me where the Scriptures talk about proxy baptism?

Are you referring to the Bible or do you mean the rest of LDS scripture also?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Are you referring to the Bible or do you mean the rest of LDS scripture also?

I am referring to the Bible.

 

[Scott C.]

I am referring to the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15:29 says "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

LDS believe Paul was well aware that Christians were performing baptisms in behalf of the dead. He referred to this practice as evidence that there will be a resurrection from the dead. If not, he reasoned, then why are baptisms for the dead being performed?

Non-LDS give other explanations for the verse. One is that Paul was referring to a Pagan practice, not a Christian practice. We know that Christians practiced baptisms for the dead in the first centuries of Christianity. At some point in history (not sure of the century), the Catholic Church condemned the practice as heresy.

I believe that the New Testament Christians practiced baptisms for the dead and it was a correct practice. Paul was referring to this correct Christian practice when he wrote 1 Corinthians and made his case for the reality of the resurrection.

Apparently this practice lived on in the church or at least in parts of the church for a few centuries. I believe the Catholic Church saw no doctrinal basis for the practice and condemned it.

In our day, the Lord reinstitued this ancient Christian ordinance through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Many LDS in this thread have explained how the practice was started in our time. I quoted LDS scriptural sources that explain how the practice fulfills prophesies relating to our time.

 

[Katzpur]

Im sorry to say that just the notion of being 'on a mission to save those in the afterlife' sounds bizarre.

Perhaps if you understood the doctrine, it wouldn't.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

1 Corinthians 15:29 says "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

LDS believe Paul was well aware that Christians were performing baptisms in behalf of the dead. He referred to this practice as evidence that there will be a resurrection from the dead. If not, he reasoned, then why are baptisms for the dead being performed?

Non-LDS give other explanations for the verse. One is that Paul was referring to a Pagan practice, not a Christian practice. We know that Christians practiced baptisms for the dead in the first centuries of Christianity. At some point in history (not sure of the century), the Catholic Church condemned the practice as heresy.

I believe that the New Testament Christians practiced baptisms for the dead and it was a correct practice. Paul was referring to this correct Christian practice when he wrote 1 Corinthians and made his case for the reality of the resurrection.

Apparently this practice lived on in the church or at least in parts of the church for a few centuries. I believe the Catholic Church saw no doctrinal basis for the practice and condemned it.

In our day, the Lord reinstitued this ancient Christian ordinance through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Many LDS in this thread have explained how the practice was started in our time. I quoted LDS scriptural sources that explain how the practice fulfills prophesies relating to our time.

Thanks for the info Scott.

While I can see the good intent that the LDS are trying to provide for people who have already past away. It's my opinion that one is responsible for their own actions here on earth including baptism. To keep this thread on track I'll refrain from adding things that are not relevant to the OP. Thanks again for answering my question. It shows me that your heart is in the right place after all. )(

 

[Caladan]

Perhaps if you understood the doctrine, it wouldn't.

And what makes this doctrine more reliable than the countless of other fantastic doctrines? the world is full of them. and still, the interpretation of doctrine is irrelevant to the situation of violations in agreement. Im happy that Mormons have their doctrines that make them unique, but when they effect me, they move from the unique category to the cultish category.
do I need to analyze each doctrine that effects me without my consent, so I might just justify it? i think its more logical if we practice our doctrines to ourselves, and respect the doctrines of the other groups, that have their own unique doctrines to practice. I assure you Jews have their own traditions regarding the elevations of souls in the heavens, so the Mormons need not be worried.

 

[Katzpur]

And what makes this doctrine more reliable than the countless of other fantastic doctrines? the world is full of them. and still, the interpretation of doctrine is irrelevant to the situation of violations in agreement. Im happy that Mormons have their doctrines that make them unique, but when they effect me, they move from the unique category to the cultish category.
do I need to analyze each doctrine that effects me without my consent, so I might just justify it? i think its more logical if we practice our doctrines to ourselves, and respect the doctrines of the other groups, that have their own unique doctrines to practice. I assure you Jews have their own traditions regarding the elevations of souls in the heavens, so the Mormons need not be worried.

You need to calm down and take a deep breath. It's not as bad as you've made it out to be. We are not a cult and the fact that you feel justified in labeling as one says far more about you than it does about us. I was simply trying to say that most ceremonies and rituals seem "bizarre" until you really understand them. You don't appear to want to take that step, which is perfectly okay by me. I wasn't asking that you believe in my religion, just that you make an honest attempt to understand it before throwing out words like "bizarre" and "cult."

 

[Watchmen]

OH! Someone dropped the "cult" word!!! That just told me everything I need to know about Caladan as labels tell more about the "labeler" than the ones he is labeling.

 

[Caladan]

I wasn't asking that you believe in my religion, just that you make an honest attempt to understand it

But many Mormons ARE pushing their believes in a way that effects me arent they?, whether I want to understand the doctrine or not. as long as the agreement is violated in such a capacity that it has stimulated this kind of protest from Jewish groups and Catholics, then you are not asking us to understand your doctrine but you are in fact invading our sacred space.
I have many family lost in WWII, the concept of dying for the sanctification of God's Name is important to me as a Jew, even if I'm an atheist, there shouldn't be any added content to it, no proxy baptism or any other thing.

 

[Caladan]

OH! Someone dropped the "cult" word!!! That just told me everything I need to know about Caladan as labels tell more about the "labeler" than the ones he is labeling.

Grow a pair of kahunas will ya.

 

[Caladan]

You need to calm down and take a deep breath. It's not as bad as you've made it out to be. We are not a cult I wasn't asking that you believe in my religion, just that you make an honest attempt to understand it before throwing out words like "bizarre" and "cult."

OK Ktzpur, I'll take the time and learn more about the Mormon beliefs. but one thing is fundamental with me, is that Im willing to go to great lengths in learning about other people beliefs, but In very offended when being effected these beliefs against my request.

 

[Katzpur]

OK Ktzpur, I'll take the time and learn more about the Mormon beliefs. but one thing is fundamental with me, is that Im willing to go to great lengths in learning about other people beliefs, but In very offended when being effected these beliefs against my request.

Fair enough. Should we continue on this thread or start a new one -- perhaps a one-on-one?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

But many Mormons ARE pushing their believes in a way that effects me arent they?, whether I want to understand the doctrine or not. as long as the agreement is violated in such a capacity that it has stimulated this kind of protest from Jewish groups and Catholics, then you are not asking us to understand your doctrine but you are in fact invading our sacred space.
I have many family lost in WWII, the concept of dying for the sanctification of God's Name is important to me as a Jew, even if I'm an atheist, there shouldn't be any added content to it, no proxy baptism or any other thing.

Do you believe in proxy baptism or it's ability to effect anything?

 

[Caladan]

Jeremy,

If you mean in a super natural way, then no.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Jeremy,

If you mean in a super natural way, then no.

Then I wouldn't worry about it. It absolutely harmless.

 

[Caladan]

Its not that simple. none of us can be positive what the future holds for such lists. also, just because I don't believe in the supernatural quality of something does not mean that I dont hold the principal to be important.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Its not that simple. none of us can be positive what the future holds for such lists. also, just because I don't believe in the supernatural quality of something does not mean that I dont hold the principal to be important.

OK... have it your way.