Vedic Period, Pre-Vedic Period and Post-Vedic Period

[paarsurrey]

Can one ascertain the above periods from the Vedas and the creeds/tenets of the people mentioned in Veda? Please

Thread open to all human beings of whatever shade they belong to, religious or otherwise. Please

Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Vedas, i.e., religious poetry of the Aryan people goes back to period before ice-age, perhaps 20,000 years. They are like poems of the Australian aboriginals and American Indians. RigVeda has a continuous record of religious history since 6-4,000 BC, fragmentary at first but in sharper focus as the time went by. So this can be considered the Vedic period. The additions to RigVeda, SamaVeda, and YajurVeda may have stopped some time around 1,500 BC. So that would be post-Vedic period. The Vedic period was the time when the old poems were given the shape of Samhitas. Some of the Upanishads belong to this older period, others were probably written in the post-Vedic period. By the end of Vedic period, Aryans were in India.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@DJ_sXe , the above is true for Zoroastrians also, since we had the same lore/prayers at one time. Actually, this is true for people of Aryan stock all over the world, wherever they went.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Vedas, i.e., religious poetry of the Aryan people goes back to period before ice-age, perhaps 20,000 years. They are like poems of the Australian aboriginals and American Indians. RigVeda has a continuous record of religious history since 6-4,000 BC, fragmentary at first but in sharper focus as the time went by. So this can be considered the Vedic period. The additions to RigVeda, SamaVeda, and YajurVeda may have stopped some time around 1,500 BC. So that would be post-Vedic period. The Vedic period was the time when the old poems were given the shape of Samhitas. Some of the Upanishads belong to this older period, others were probably written in the post-Vedic period. By the end of Vedic period, Aryans were in India.

Who are the Aryans?

 

[paarsurrey]

Vedas, i.e., religious poetry of the Aryan people goes back to period before ice-age, perhaps 20,000 years. They are like poems of the Australian aboriginals and American Indians. RigVeda has a continuous record of religious history since 6-4,000 BC, fragmentary at first but in sharper focus as the time went by. So this can be considered the Vedic period. The additions to RigVeda, SamaVeda, and YajurVeda may have stopped some time around 1,500 BC. So that would be post-Vedic period. The Vedic period was the time when the old poems were given the shape of Samhitas. Some of the Upanishads belong to this older period, others were probably written in the post-Vedic period. By the end of Vedic period, Aryans were in India.

Since the time period is not mentioned in Veda, so it should be understood from the names, topography, animals etc mentioned in Veda/Yajurveda itself. The creeds/tenets of the people mentioned in Veda , if any,should form the basis of creeds/tenets of the Vedic-Period people not outside of it, for certain. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who are the Aryans?

Aryans were a group of herders and nomadic people who (according to BG Tilak's theory) lived in far-North somewhere in Siberia and in the ice-age traveled South and later dispersed to many countries spreading from Ireland to Western China.

The creeds/tenets of the people mentioned in Veda , if any,should form the basis of creeds/tenets of the Vedic-Period people not outside of it, for certain.

No. That is not correct. Aryan people came to India and merged/were assimilated by the indigenous population. What resulted was a mix of both the cultures and that is Hinduism. Hinduism cannot be Vedic only.

There are clear indications of the time periods.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Since the time period is not mentioned in Veda, so it should be understood from the names, topography, animals etc mentioned in Veda/Yajurveda itself. The creeds/tenets of the people mentioned in Veda , if any,should form the basis of creeds/tenets of the Vedic-Period people not outside of it, for certain. Right?

You see, Paarsurrey, Vedas are thousands of years older that the Christian or the Muslim calendars. They could not have said that a particular thing happened in 3,000 BC or 4,000 years before the Islamic calendar, because these calendars were not in existence at that time.

But historians have ways to find the period. For example, the famous Battle of Ten Kings in RigVeda mentions that the attacking army was destroyed in a flood in River Ravi, then it is reasonable to think that the war happened sometime in the rainy season, July/August, because that is the time when a river in India would be in flood (as is the case for most rivers in India this week). Similarly when RigVeda says that "Aditi is the beginning and end of the year", it means that Aryans began their year when the sun rose on the day of vernal equinox in that particular asterism (Nakshatra - in this case Punarvasu or Castor and Pollux) represented by 'Aditi' (God Mother for Aryans). That gives the date of the verse to be about 6,000 BC.

 

[paarsurrey]

You see, Paarsurrey, Vedas are thousands of years older that the Christian or the Muslim calendars. They could not have said that a particular thing happened in 3,000 BC or 4,000 years before the Islamic calendar, because these calendars were not in existence at that time.
But historians have ways to find the period. For example, the famous Battle of Ten Kings in RigVeda mentions that the attacking army was destroyed in a flood in River Ravi, then it is reasonable to think that the war happened sometime in the rainy season, July/August, because that is the time when a river in India would be in flood (as is the case for most rivers in India this week). Similarly when RigVeda says that "Aditi is the beginning and end of the year", it means that Aryans began their year when the sun rose on the day of vernal equinox in that particular asterism (Nakshatra - in this case Punarvasu or Castor and Pollux) represented by 'Aditi' (God Mother for Aryans). That gives the date of the verse to be about 6,000 BC.

You mean pure guess work is employed? It may be likely fair in writing on social and historic interpretation but not in religion of a people. Instead for the purposes of religion where tenets and creeds of a people are discussed it is better to remain focused on the internal evidence of the scripture revealed.
So, convenient approach/tool is Vedic-Period, Pre-Vedic-Period and Post-Vedic period for discussion of religion of Veda and the people who were its believers. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

What I have mentioned is an internal part of RigVeda, its own hymns. That is one part of Hinduism.

 

[Jainarayan]

You mean pure guess work is employed?

No, archaeology and science are employed. For centuries no one could find the "mythical" Saraswati River spoken of in the Vedas. Guess what satellite imaging shows... the dried up course of the Saraswati River.

Guess what climatologists are finding about the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization... the climate dried out and the people most likely migrated east where it was wetter. They weren't obliterated by "Aryans" or aliens.

Guess what tantalizing information marine archaeologists are finding out about the ancient city of Dvārakā, Krishna's capital... that it may very well be submerged in the Gulf of Khambhat. Sea levels rose 8,000 - 10,000 years ago.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

No, archaeology and science are employed. For centuries no one could find the "mythical" Saraswati River spoken of in the Vedas. Guess what satellite imaging shows... the dried up course of the Saraswati River.

The Helmand in Afghanistan is a possible candidate for the Saraswati too.

Guess what climatologists are finding about the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization... the climate dried out and the people most likely migrated east where it was wetter. They weren't obliterated by "Aryans" or aliens.

That is correct. But it is recognized that Aryans did migrate into the area - after the collapse of the earlier IVC. It was not a single wave of migration. It is possible that the Rig Vedins and the Atharvana Vedins migrated separately and later merged in India. This is why the Atharvana Veda was not counted among the Vedas in several old classifications. The language employed in the AV has some evidence in support of this independent origin.

Guess what tantalizing information marine archaeologists are finding out about the ancient city of Dvārakā, Krishna's capital... that it may very well be submerged in the Gulf of Khambhat. Sea levels rose 8,000 - 10,000 years ago.

That was just more of proproganda than fact. No evidence has been uncovered to support this theory of a submerged city and no one is looking anymore for they did not really find anything of substance. Besides, Dwaraka is an existing and thriving city.

 

[Jainarayan]

The Helmand in Afghanistan is a possible candidate for the Saraswati too.

I did not know that.

That is correct. But it is recognized that Aryans did migrate into the area - after the collapse of the earlier IVC. It was not a single wave of migration. It is possible that the Rig Vedins and the Atharvana Vedins migrated separately and later merged in India. This is why the Atharvana Veda was not counted among the Vedas in several old classifications. The language employed in the AV has some evidence in support of this independent origin.

I'm inclined to agree. I am usually reluctant to mention that because it's a sensitive topic, but I too believe there was no massive invasion or influx, but rather, people trickling and moving around here and there.Over the course of time, even a few centuries to a millennium or three, a lot of mingling and mixing can take place. Ideas, languages, religions, genes get thrown into the mix. Things don't have to always be so dramatic in history. In fact, I'll bet it's only the long timescales that make it seem like historical events are so dramatic. Some yes... the sack of Rome, the fall of Constantinople, for example.

That was just more of proproganda than fact. No evidence has been uncovered to support this theory of a submerged city and no one is looking anymore for they did not really find anything of substance. Besides, Dwaraka is an existing and thriving city.

Ah bummer!

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Aryans were a group of herders and nomadic people who (according to BG Tilak's theory) lived in far-North somewhere in Siberia and in the ice-age traveled South and later dispersed to many countries spreading from Ireland to Western China.

Who are their descendants today?

 

[atanu]

Who are the Aryans?

Meaning of 'arya' is shown in the page.


http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?beginning=0+&tinput=Arya&trans=Translate&direction=SE

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who are their descendants today?

These people mixed with the local populations and are found (as I said) from Ireland to Western China.
"R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) is the sub-clade most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. Most discussions purportedly of R1a origins are actually about the origins of the dominant R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade. Data so far collected indicates that there are two widely separated areas of high frequency, one in South Asia, around North India, and the other in Eastern Europe, around Poland and Ukraine." (citation needed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians#Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a, particularly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#Geographic_distribution_of_R1a1a

Archaeological cultures associated with Indo-Iranian expansion include:
Europe: Poltavka culture (2700–2100 BC)
Central Asia: Andronovo horizon (2200–1000 BC), Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim (2200–1600 BC), Alakul (2100–1400 BC), Fedorovo (1400–1200 BC), Alekseyevka (1200–1000 BC), Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (2200–1700 BC), Srubna culture (2000–1100 BC), Abashevo culture (1700–1500 BC), Yaz culture (1500–1100 BC)
India (middle Ganges plains): Painted Gray Ware culture (1100–350 BC)
Iran: Early West Iranian Grey Ware (1500–1000 BC), Late West Iranian Buff Ware (900–700 BC)
Indo-Pak sub-continent: Swat culture (1600–500 BC), Cemetery H culture (1900–1300 BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians#Archaeology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations

 

[Jainarayan]

Meaning of 'arya' is shown in the page.

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?page=1

I use that site all the time!

Just saying.

 

[von bek]

I fear that ancient history was a lot more exciting than we will ever know. I was watching a good documentary about the Oracle of Delphi the other day that almost made me weep because of what has been lost...

 

[Aupmanyav]

South America, North America, Europe, Central Asia, India, Australia. All because of Abrahamic religions.

Meaning of 'arya' is shown in the page.

Also see http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=Aryan&direction=ES&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0

 

[atanu]

I use that site all the time!
Just saying.

I have corrected the link to directly point to translation page.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

These people mixed with the local populations and are found (as I said) from Ireland to Western China.
"R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) is the sub-clade most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. Most discussions purportedly of R1a origins are actually about the origins of the dominant R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade. Data so far collected indicates that there are two widely separated areas of high frequency, one in South Asia, around North India, and the other in Eastern Europe, around Poland and Ukraine." (citation needed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians#Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a, particularly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#Geographic_distribution_of_R1a1a

Archaeological cultures associated with Indo-Iranian expansion include:
Europe: Poltavka culture (2700–2100 BC)
Central Asia: Andronovo horizon (2200–1000 BC), Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim (2200–1600 BC), Alakul (2100–1400 BC), Fedorovo (1400–1200 BC), Alekseyevka (1200–1000 BC), Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (2200–1700 BC), Srubna culture (2000–1100 BC), Abashevo culture (1700–1500 BC), Yaz culture (1500–1100 BC)
India (middle Ganges plains): Painted Gray Ware culture (1100–350 BC)
Iran: Early West Iranian Grey Ware (1500–1000 BC), Late West Iranian Buff Ware (900–700 BC)
Indo-Pak sub-continent: Swat culture (1600–500 BC), Cemetery H culture (1900–1300 BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians#Archaeology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations

Right, but this evidence seems rather removed from the claim that the Aryans originated in the far North somewhere in Siberia.