Now that the door is open, where does it close?

[Marisa]

These things mystify me as well Marisa. If one is going to follow ALL the laws of the OT, one will follow all the laws and not cherry pick those which fit their collective agenda. Yet, each and every time we are told that Christ came to fulfill the law. IF that is the case, then it would pertain to all the laws. Funny how they fit the ones that they like to prattle on about and forget the rest.

That's pretty much exactly what I mean when I say some christians seem to redefine the word "fulfill". It really does seem like some christians think the only think in the OT is a couple of movie plot lines, god's top 10 hits list, and don't be gay. LOL

 

[Looncall]

I'm glad I, as well as the atheist, are made in the image of God and not animals. Atheists just choose not to love and worship their Creator. I do hope you know there is a difference between mankind and animals?

How stunningly inane it is to accuse someone of choosing not to worship an entity they do not believe exists.

Religion truly does degrade the human intellect.

 

[Marisa]

How stunningly inane it is to accuse someone of choosing not to worship an entity they do not believe exists.

Religion truly does degrade the human intellect.

Agreed. I can't choose to believe that god(s) exist any more than I can choose to believe gravity doesn't exist.

 

[Thief]

Agreed. I can't choose to believe that god(s) exist any more than I can choose to believe gravity doesn't exist.

decide then by using cause and effect.

 

[k4c]

I don't have the time to waste trying to explain the things of God to no-converted people who refuse any evidence presented. Unless a person is born again they cannot enter the kingdom of God nor can they even see the kingdom of God. You first need to except the basic truth of a Creator God from the simple, yet complex, things you see in creation that reveal a Creator. If you reject these basic things that testify of God there is nothing left for me to do.

Romans 1:16-32 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[Marisa]

decide then by using cause and effect.

 

[Marisa]

I don't have the time to waste trying to explain the things of God to no-converted people who refuse any evidence presented. Unless a person is born again they cannot enter the kingdom of God nor can they even see the kingdom of God. You first need to except the basic truth of a Creator God from the simple, yet complex, things you see in creation that reveal a Creator. If you reject these basic things that testify of God there is nothing left for me to do.

Romans 1:16-32 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I tend to believe that which can be proved to me. I don't believe first and then look around me and presuppose it's all because of the particular mythology I've chosen to believe. There's a line from the movie The Santa Clause, in which the elf tells a disbelieving Scott Calving that "seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree. Hopefully all religious groups will not be lumped together.

My approach is to just ignore religion and let organizations qualify for their status like secular organizations: if a church (or an organization affiliated with a church) does so much good work that it qualifies as a charity, then let it be a charity. If a church brings in gobs of profit, then let it be taxed as a business.

... and if a church doesn't quite meet the requirements for being classified as a charity, I have no problem with them spinning off their charitable activities into a separate organization for the tax benefits (e.g. a "Whereveresville First Baptist Church Foundation" to go along with the Whereversville First Baptist Church).

and yet Canadian priests have been put in jail for what they have said...

I think there's more to the story than you (or maybe your sources) are letting on. Just because a priest expressed a religious opinion and then was arrested doesn't necessarily mean that he was arrested for expressing that opinion. Some news outlets will leave out (or alter) details to promote their own agendas.

Best wishes for your wedding. We did our wedding ourself - made our own cakes (had a huge cake bar with all different varieties), had a family member take picts, etc.... come to think of it, the most fun weddings I have been to (Renaissance themed, cartoon themed, the great outdoors themed) did not hire anyone.

That's fine if you can (or want to) do it, but you do recognize that there are reasons why a couple might hire someone for an aspect of their wedding that have nothing to do with spite toward the business owner, don't you?

 

[leibowde84]

I'm glad I, as well as the atheist, are made in the image of God and not animals. Atheists just choose not to love and worship their Creator. I do hope you know there is a difference between mankind and animals?

You can't really believe this, can you? You really think that a person who does not believe in the existence of God "chooses" not to worship God? Do you see how utterly illogical that is?

The idea of "faith" is believing in something even though it is not supported with sufficient evidence. The atheist does not "choose" to disbelief. They are unable to believe due to a lack of evidence.

 

[Thief]

I don't have the time to waste trying to explain the things of God to no-converted people who refuse any evidence presented. Unless a person is born again they cannot enter the kingdom of God nor can they even see the kingdom of God. You first need to except the basic truth of a Creator God from the simple, yet complex, things you see in creation that reveal a Creator. If you reject these basic things that testify of God there is nothing left for me to do.

There is no need of scripture to believe in God.
Man believed in God long before any such book took form.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't have the time to waste trying to explain the things of God to no-converted people who refuse any evidence presented. Unless a person is born again they cannot enter the kingdom of God nor can they even see the kingdom of God. You first need to except the basic truth of a Creator God from the simple, yet complex, things you see in creation that reveal a Creator. If you reject these basic things that testify of God there is nothing left for me to do.

Romans 1:16-32 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

It seems that you are looking down on the many great minds who see the same creation as you do, yet see no need for a creator or supernatural force. They are right, and you are merely jumping to a conclusion that is not supported by evidence. You, like myself, have faith that a creator exists, but it isn't necessary via logic or science. It is a belief. It is completely irrational and disrespectful to assume that atheists are refusing to recognize obvious evidence of God. At the very least, to avoid disrespect, you should provide this evidence that you find so convincing.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I do wonder about your perspective. There's nothing wrong with being gay just like there's nothing wrong with being straight. Most of the conflict experienced by the LGBTQ community would just disappear in a puff of glittery smoke if others would refrain from strapping holy books to sticks and beating people with them. If you don't appreciate the efforts of others to secure rights and freedoms for ALL, I find that extremely sad. But don't expect me to stop crusading and seeking attention for the plight of the socially marginalized. And if I get rich from this, I'll be sure to let you know.

Let's get something straight.

We're on the same side.

I have been accused by many who are also gay of being a "self-hating gay" or "worrying about my perspective" or all that other crap.

ON the other side of the coin, I catch crap from the anti-gay because I stand against our oppression and denial of the same rights and liberties of everyone else.

• Brendan Eich's personal affairs are none of our business. What he does with his personal funds is not our business. I suspect that someone made this information public because they had something against him.They used the LGBT community as their weapon. The LGBT community bought into it gleefully. Someone made a fool out of us. Eich donated to a defense of traditional marriage fund because he viewed homosexuality as a threat to him and his way of life. So the LGBT community proved to Mr. Eich that we are a threat to him and his way of life. Nice going guys. Really. Great job. Damned crusaders. We did not change minds. We did not sway others to our opinion. We showed others that they will conform, or pay the consequences. I wonder if you are old enough to remember that it wasn't that long ago when it was US who were told that we will conform, or pay the consequences.
  
• GLAAD botched the Robertson issue badly. Embarrassingly. We had a pristine opportunity to tell the world what Robertson was wrong about in his ridiculous comments. But we were having too much fun flexing our muscle rather than appealing to reason. And attacking Robertson wasn't good enough; we had to attack an entire network and completely uninvolved sponsor companies. GLAAD silenced Robertson by intimidation and public shaming. It wasn't that long ago when WE were silenced by intimidation and public shaming.
• Two lesbians took their wedding rings back crying because the jeweler they bought them from put a sign in his window that said, "we support traditional marriage". What a crock. The jeweler was a vendor; nothing more. If they look at their wedding rings and see the jeweler's anti-gay sentiment, then they've missed the whole point of their wedding rings anyway. Poor, trodden-upon, oppressed couple, these two were. Oh, the travesty. Someone doesn't agree with us; oh, the discrimination.
• Someone says they don't agree, or that "homosexuality is a sin" or crack a gay joke, and we're victims of "gay bashing". Gay bashing my back end. Get over yourselves. Really? See, I remember when gay bashing was a group of rednecks jumping out of the back of a pickup truck with tire irons and beating us into the pavement. THAT's gay bashing. Damned this "victim stancing". I myself laugh at some gay jokes. It pays to have a sense of humor in life and it is healthy to have a sense of humor about yourself.

Let's be very, very clear on a couple things:

• Our rights stop when they infringe on the rights of our neighbors. That includes the right to have a different opinion. Even if that opinion is wrong.
• We can expect no more tolerance than what we are willing to give.
  
• IF the Federal Government decided to prevent WBC from protesting, would you march with them and defend their right to speak? I would. Because I am smart enough to know that if we allow the powers that be to tell them what THEY can and can't say or believe, then it's only a matter of time before they come around and try to tell ME what I can and can't say or believe.
• The oppressors always become the oppressed. IN Ancient Rome, the Pagans oppressed the Christians. Then the Christians came to power and oppressed the Pagans. IN Stalin Russia, the Christians were oppressed. Now, in Russia, the non-believers and gays are oppressed because the Christians rose to power and the government there is in the pockets of the Orthodox church. We oppress our neighbors with our short-sighted righteous wrath, and we set the stage for future generations of gays to fight against the same oppression that we have fought so hard to overcome.

We still have, here in this nation, no employment protection for gays. There still exists areas of the country where we are physically and sometimes brutally assaulted just because we are different. We face the constant attitude that for some reason, we are a threat to current traditions. Sick idiots still want to equate homosexuality to incest, pedophilia and bestiality. In South Africa, we are run out of our communities and persecuted; many fleeing for their very lives. IN Syria and Iran, we are publicly hung. In many parts of the world, we still face long or permanent prison terms for being gay or being caught in a gay act. Here in our very nation, there still exists criminalized consensual sodomy.

IN other words, we have a lot more important things to worry about than to waste our time, energy and political influence worrying about what some redneck preacher in Louisiana thinks about us, what some CEO does with his personal money or some sign in a jeweler's window has to say.

I'm not sure if you've noticed or not, but I am not silent on confronting anti-gay beliefs. But I fight with reason; as the way to defeat bad ideas is with better ideas.

WE can't change minds through censorship and intimidation. All that does is drives the enemy underground, where they sit there and fester, waiting for the right time to act. When we use our political and economic influence to silence dissenting opinions, we do nothing to change their minds; we only shut them up, and we shut them up only for the moment.

So, to encapsulate, this is my perspective:

• IF we punish our neighbors for the exercise of their human rights to hold a belief and speak that belief, then we set the stage for our own to be punished later down the road for exercising our human right to hold a belief and speak that belief.
• If we permit or encourage governments or society to tell others what they can and can not say or believe, then we invite governments or society to tull us what WE can say and believe.
  
• There are more important things to worry about than a few people not agreeing with us.
• We can only change minds through better ideas and education; we can't change minds through censorship and bullying. It has been tried hundreds of times before, and it has always failed.

 

[Marisa]

Let's get something straight.

We're on the same side.

Don't assume I don't mean you can't have your own opinion or perspectives. But don't expect that once you place it out there, it's not going to be critiqued. None of us have the right to not have our publicly stated opinions scrutinized by the public on whom we foist them.

I have been accused by many who are also gay of being a "self-hating gay" or "worrying about my perspective" or all that other crap.

I don't know you well enough to know whether you self loathe. Suffice to say, there is that possibility. Given the ways LGBTQ are greeted in our society, it's completely understandable. They are compared to pedophiles and told they are abominations in the eyes of mythical beings. It is true, psychologically speaking, that when we hear a constant barrage of negative things about ourselves, we come to believe it. This is how abusers control their victims, after all.

ON the other side of the coin, I catch crap from the anti-gay because I stand against our oppression and denial of the same rights and liberties of everyone else.

• Brendan Eich's personal affairs are none of our business. What he does with his personal funds is not our business. I suspect that someone made this information public because they had something against him.They used the LGBT community as their weapon. The LGBT community bought into it gleefully. Someone made a fool out of us. Eich donated to a defense of traditional marriage fund because he viewed homosexuality as a threat to him and his way of life. So the LGBT community proved to Mr. Eich that we are a threat to him and his way of life. Nice going guys. Really. Great job. Damned crusaders. We did not change minds. We did not sway others to our opinion. We showed others that they will conform, or pay the consequences. I wonder if you are old enough to remember that it wasn't that long ago when it was US who were told that we will conform, or pay the consequences.
  
• GLAAD botched the Robertson issue badly. Embarrassingly. We had a pristine opportunity to tell the world what Robertson was wrong about in his ridiculous comments. But we were having too much fun flexing our muscle rather than appealing to reason. And attacking Robertson wasn't good enough; we had to attack an entire network and completely uninvolved sponsor companies. GLAAD silenced Robertson by intimidation and public shaming. It wasn't that long ago when WE were silenced by intimidation and public shaming.
• Two lesbians took their wedding rings back crying because the jeweler they bought them from put a sign in his window that said, "we support traditional marriage". What a crock. The jeweler was a vendor; nothing more. If they look at their wedding rings and see the jeweler's anti-gay sentiment, then they've missed the whole point of their wedding rings anyway. Poor, trodden-upon, oppressed couple, these two were. Oh, the travesty. Someone doesn't agree with us; oh, the discrimination.
• Someone says they don't agree, or that "homosexuality is a sin" or crack a gay joke, and we're victims of "gay bashing". Gay bashing my back end. Get over yourselves. Really? See, I remember when gay bashing was a group of rednecks jumping out of the back of a pickup truck with tire irons and beating us into the pavement. THAT's gay bashing. Damned this "victim stancing". I myself laugh at some gay jokes. It pays to have a sense of humor in life and it is healthy to have a sense of humor about yourself.

These are examples of what I referenced above, that when you foist your opinions upon the public the public examines those opinions. Consumers speak with their wallets, and in any other arena we have no problem with this. It's not a violation of anyone's right to speak until someone goes to jail for it. We ALL have the right to speak, but NONE OF US have the right to not be challenged for what we say.

Let's be very, very clear on a couple things:

• Our rights stop when they infringe on the rights of our neighbors. That includes the right to have a different opinion. Even if that opinion is wrong.
• We can expect no more tolerance than what we are willing to give.
  
• IF the Federal Government decided to prevent WBC from protesting, would you march with them and defend their right to speak? I would. Because I am smart enough to know that if we allow the powers that be to tell them what THEY can and can't say or believe, then it's only a matter of time before they come around and try to tell ME what I can and can't say or believe.
• The oppressors always become the oppressed. IN Ancient Rome, the Pagans oppressed the Christians. Then the Christians came to power and oppressed the Pagans. IN Stalin Russia, the Christians were oppressed. Now, in Russia, the non-believers and gays are oppressed because the Christians rose to power and the government there is in the pockets of the Orthodox church. We oppress our neighbors with our short-sighted righteous wrath, and we set the stage for future generations of gays to fight against the same oppression that we have fought so hard to overcome.

Again, the only people with any rights being violated are those who are told they can't be equal participants in society. It is very clear in the issue of LGBTQ people exactly who is being told they can't participate equally. They can't expect to marry. They can't expect to not be fired from their jobs.

We still have, here in this nation, no employment protection for gays. There still exists areas of the country where we are physically and sometimes brutally assaulted just because we are different. We face the constant attitude that for some reason, we are a threat to current traditions. Sick idiots still want to equate homosexuality to incest, pedophilia and bestiality. In South Africa, we are run out of our communities and persecuted; many fleeing for their very lives. IN Syria and Iran, we are publicly hung. In many parts of the world, we still face long or permanent prison terms for being gay or being caught in a gay act. Here in our very nation, there still exists criminalized consensual sodomy.

IN other words, we have a lot more important things to worry about than to waste our time, energy and political influence worrying about what some redneck preacher in Louisiana thinks about us, what some CEO does with his personal money or some sign in a jeweler's window has to say.

I'm not sure if you've noticed or not, but I am not silent on confronting anti-gay beliefs. But I fight with reason; as the way to defeat bad ideas is with better ideas.

WE can't change minds through censorship and intimidation. All that does is drives the enemy underground, where they sit there and fester, waiting for the right time to act. When we use our political and economic influence to silence dissenting opinions, we do nothing to change their minds; we only shut them up, and we shut them up only for the moment.

So, to encapsulate, this is my perspective:

• IF we punish our neighbors for the exercise of their human rights to hold a belief and speak that belief, then we set the stage for our own to be punished later down the road for exercising our human right to hold a belief and speak that belief.
• If we permit or encourage governments or society to tell others what they can and can not say or believe, then we invite governments or society to tull us what WE can say and believe.
  
• There are more important things to worry about than a few people not agreeing with us.
• We can only change minds through better ideas and education; we can't change minds through censorship and bullying. It has been tried hundreds of times before, and it has always failed.

Unfortunately, what some redneck preacher in Lousiana thinks influences much of the behaviors against LGBTQ people that you and I agree upon. None of that speech will change unless it's challenged. And it probably won't be pretty while it's being done. There was MUCH ugly about the civil rights movement, after all.

 

[viole]

I'm glad I, as well as the atheist, are made in the image of God and not animals. Atheists just choose not to love and worship their Creator. I do hope you know there is a difference between mankind and animals?

I am a bit disappointed that God made me look much more like a chimp than a spider. I love spiders.

Does God look also more like an ape than an arachnid?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Marisa]

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

None of that speech will change unless it's challenged.

Agreed!

I was a bit tired when I posted earlier, and I tend to be rather emphatic and impulsive when I post tired. We warn people about drunk and drowsy driving; we should also warn people about the hazards of drunk and drowsy posting, LoL.

There is a world of different between "challenged" and "silenced". What most LGBT activists are doing now is "silencing".

GLAAD botched the Robinson issue and botched it bad. He told GQ magazine that he couldn't understand homosexuality. GLAAD didn't offer him or others any information to help them understand us; they just told him to shut up. Robinson wondered what followed homosexuality, going on to bestiality. GLAAD didn't educate Robinson that one is a sexual orientation, the other is a paraphilia and a mental disorder and that there is no connection between the homosexuality and paraphilia; they just told him to shut up. Because he and their network was bullied into silence and submission, no one's mind was changed. NO speech was challenged. No speech was changed. The only benefit received was their silence; and they must be heard and they must be allowed to speak. If they don't speak, we don't know what they're thinking; and if we don't know what they're thinking, we can't communicate to them why their thinking is in error. We should welcome open discourse.

It is very clear in the issue of LGBTQ people exactly who is being told they can't participate equally. They can't expect to marry. They can't expect to not be fired from their jobs.

I totally agree with your sentiment. This must change. My point is that we can use power of laws, boycotts, etc. to force behavior. But we can't force others through power of laws and boycotts to change thoughts and beliefs. That can only be done through open discourse; by introducing new ideas and new information to replace the old.

Unfortunately, what some redneck preacher in Lousiana thinks influences much of the behaviors against LGBTQ people that you and I agree upon.

But they did not hear our side, did they? All they heard was "They made Robertson shut up and they'll do the same to me if I state what I believe to be true". So we did nothing .. NOTHING ... to counter the influence of his speech.

So not only did we do nothing to change Phil's mind, we did nothing to change the minds of those who would listen to him.

How does that help us, Marisa?

We ALL have the right to speak, but NONE OF US have the right to not be challenged for what we say.

But no one was challenged. They were just told to shut up.

These are examples of what I referenced above, that when you foist your opinions upon the public the public examines those opinions.

Our opinions are not being "examined" by the supporters of those whom I listed. Our opinions are not being examined because they're not even being spoken. Our adversaries are just being told to shut up.

They are compared to pedophiles and told they are abominations in the eyes of mythical beings. It is true, psychologically speaking, that when we hear a constant barrage of negative things about ourselves, we come to believe it. This is how abusers control their victims, after all.

THIS is what needs to be heard by Robertson, Eich, WBC, Sara Palin, Family Research Council and the myriad of others needs to hear.

=====================================================================================================

I"m not saying "you have no right" to boycott or express yourself as you see fit. I'm saying that the methodology of silencing dissenting opinion and erroneous beliefs is counterproductive.

=====================================================================================================

Again, the only people with any rights being violated are those who are told they can't be equal participants in society.

I do not entirely agree.

If I grab hold to you and move you a mere 10 feet, against your will, I have committed a high crime of "Kidnapping". 10 feet is all it takes. Yet now we want to put our nose in the air and preach to our adversaries that they can, AND WILL be compelled to move their physical bodies to a gay wedding, which contradicts their religious beliefs; and if they don't like it, they can just stop their profession. I'm not talking about dropshipping floral arrangements or having a wedding cake prepared for pickup. I'm talking about forcefully compelling an individual to physically participate in an event they find objectionable, and find it objectionable on religious grounds. I see a problem with this. The arguments against my position are sound and my position is difficult to defend. It rests in an area that is shrouded by gray. It is not as "black and white" as employment discrimination, two sets of rules for displays of public affection, being denied the right to marry.

I don't give 2 cents if the church, baker, florist or photographer approve of what I'm doing. That means nothing to me. Absolutely nothing. I will gleefully force a florist to deliver those flowers and the baker to bake that cake. What I do with the merchandise I lawfully purchased from them and intend to lawfully used is none of their business. But at the point that I forcefully compel a human being to physically be present at a location where they do not wish to be simply because I take exaggerated offense to their rejection of me, then at that point, I see myself as becoming the same oppressive force that we have fought so hard to overcome. I see it no different as forcing you to move 10 feet against your will. I see it as a legalized crime against their person.

 

[Marisa]

Agreed!

I was a bit tired when I posted earlier, and I tend to be rather emphatic and impulsive when I post tired. We warn people about drunk and drowsy driving; we should also warn people about the hazards of drunk and drowsy posting, LoL.

There is a world of different between "challenged" and "silenced". What most LGBT activists are doing now is "silencing".

GLAAD botched the Robinson issue and botched it bad. He told GQ magazine that he couldn't understand homosexuality. GLAAD didn't offer him or others any information to help them understand us; they just told him to shut up. Robinson wondered what followed homosexuality, going on to bestiality. GLAAD didn't educate Robinson that one is a sexual orientation, the other is a paraphilia and a mental disorder and that there is no connection between the homosexuality and paraphilia; they just told him to shut up. Because he and their network was bullied into silence and submission, no one's mind was changed. NO speech was challenged. No speech was changed. The only benefit received was their silence; and they must be heard and they must be allowed to speak. If they don't speak, we don't know what they're thinking; and if we don't know what they're thinking, we can't communicate to them why their thinking is in error. We should welcome open discourse.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as it's society doing it and not the government. We'll never ever stop people from thinking things, but that doesn't mean that when people projectile vomit their vile thoughts onto society that society should restrain itself from reacting.

I totally agree with your sentiment. This must change. My point is that we can use power of laws, boycotts, etc. to force behavior. But we can't force others through power of laws and boycotts to change thoughts and beliefs. That can only be done through open discourse; by introducing new ideas and new information to replace the old.

To some extent, it's probably true that we are trying to influence thoughts. Thoughts are where actions begin, after all. People learn just how far removed from mainstream societal thought and acceptability they are by how their utterings are received within that society.

But they did not hear our side, did they? All they heard was "They made Robertson shut up and they'll do the same to me if I state what I believe to be true". So we did nothing .. NOTHING ... to counter the influence of his speech.

So not only did we do nothing to change Phil's mind, we did nothing to change the minds of those who would listen to him.

How does that help us, Marisa?

It's not about any single individual, you get that, right? The problem with religions is that the moderates provide a comfortable hiding place for the extremists. Robertson is protected because too many religious people don't want to criticize his interpretation of the bible, regardless of how far removed from their interpretation it may be. But when those people speak out against him, and say "you do not speak for us" Robertson learns something.

But no one was challenged. They were just told to shut up.

Bull****. When you are told "your speech is not welcome in the public square" that is an examination of the speech that was presented. It was examined and determined unproductive to a functioning society in which equality is the paramount concern.

Our opinions are not being "examined" by the supporters of those whom I listed. Our opinions are not being examined because they're not even being spoken. Our adversaries are just being told to shut up.

No, they aren't. They are being challenged with fact.

THIS is what needs to be heard by Robertson, Eich, WBC, Sara Palin, Family Research Council and the myriad of others needs to hear.

It's happening. I don't know why you can't see it that way. But it is happening. It's the loudest thing being said.

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I"m not saying "you have no right" to boycott or express yourself as you see fit. I'm saying that the methodology of silencing dissenting opinion and erroneous beliefs is counterproductive.

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If these people have been silenced, why is Robertson still on TV? Why hasn't Bryon Fisher's radio show been shut down?

I do not entirely agree.

If I grab hold to you and move you a mere 10 feet, against your will, I have committed a high crime of "Kidnapping". 10 feet is all it takes. Yet now we want to put our nose in the air and preach to our adversaries that they can, AND WILL be compelled to move their physical bodies to a gay wedding, which contradicts their religious beliefs; and if they don't like it, they can just stop their profession. I'm not talking about dropshipping floral arrangements or having a wedding cake prepared for pickup. I'm talking about forcefully compelling an individual to physically participate in an event they find objectionable, and find it objectionable on religious grounds. I see a problem with this. The arguments against my position are sound and my position is difficult to defend. It rests in an area that is shrouded by gray. It is not as "black and white" as employment discrimination, two sets of rules for displays of public affection, being denied the right to marry.

I don't give 2 cents if the church, baker, florist or photographer approve of what I'm doing. That means nothing to me. Absolutely nothing. I will gleefully force a florist to deliver those flowers and the baker to bake that cake. What I do with the merchandise I lawfully purchased from them and intend to lawfully used is none of their business. But at the point that I forcefully compel a human being to physically be present at a location where they do not wish to be simply because I take exaggerated offense to their rejection of me, then at that point, I see myself as becoming the same oppressive force that we have fought so hard to overcome. I see it no different as forcing you to move 10 feet against your will. I see it as a legalized crime against their person.

Okay, and I disagree with you. Taking a picture is not participating.

 

[idea]

I don't know you well enough to know whether you self loathe. ...

The self-loathing insecure types are generally the fear-mongers who unreasonably attack and misrepresent others.. who become easily offended etc.. like a wounded animal that you cannot help because they will bite your hand off if you reach out to them.

Those who are secure and self-confident tend to see the world through rosier glasses, tend to think the best of those around them - have trust/faith that everyone is just doing the best they can with what they have, that there is no need to go on the war-path etc. ...

I think it is pretty clear in this thread who the self-loathing insecure posters are...

That said, I do feel sorry for those who have been in bad situations. Please do not judge everyone (including organizations) based on limited bad experiences. Most people really are good - society would not have survived this long if goodness did not dominate.

 

[Marisa]

The self-loathing insecure types are generally the fear-mongers who unreasonably attack and misrepresent others.. who become easily offended etc.. like a wounded animal that you cannot help because they will bite your hand off if you reach out to them.

Those who are secure and self-confident tend to see the world through rosier glasses, tend to think the best of those around them - have trust/faith that everyone is just doing the best they can with what they have, that there is no need to go on the war-path etc. ...

I think it is pretty clear in this thread who the self-loathing insecure posters are...

That said, I do feel sorry for those who have been in bad situations. Please do not judge everyone (including organizations) based on limited bad experiences. Most people really are good - society would not have survived this long if goodness did not dominate.

Thank you for that, Dr. Brothers. It's always nice to be psycho-analyzed by someone who's still smarting from having been recently disagreed with.

 

[idea]

Thank you for that, Dr. Brothers. It's always nice to be psycho-analyzed by someone who's still smarting from having been recently disagreed with.

I was once where you are now, judging and thinking the worst of everyone except others like myself... Then I learned about metanoia, and I now see through rosier glasses.

If you see yourself as being perfect/infallible/right - the only way to protect this is to lash out and cognitively distance yourself from anyone else who has a different viewpoint, imagining up any excuse you can to see others as evil and protect your own self-image.

The more anyone is willing to accept that they might not be right in any particular viewpoint
(be it religious, non-religious, political, social etc.), the less cognitive dissonance exists, and the more that person is able to clearly see the intents and character of those around them.

Don't worry, I'm not upset at those who are trapped in their own realities unable to see anything other than what they want to see - we are all in our own realities to some extent. ...

brothers? I'm actually a sister your sister seeing how we're all children of the same Heavenly Father.