Is FGM really cultural?

[icehorse]

For the last several years I’ve heard over and over again that FGM is NOT an Islamic thing, it’s an African cultural thing.

According to this article FGM is big in Indonesia, which would lead one to believe that perhaps FGM isn't as much cultural as Islamic?

IRIN Asia | INDONESIA: Female genital mutilation persists despite ban | Indonesia | Gender Issues | Health & Nutrition

 

[Augustus]

For the last several years I’ve heard over and over again that FGM is NOT an Islamic thing, it’s an African cultural thing.

According to this article FGM is big in Indonesia, which would lead one to believe that perhaps FGM isn't as much cultural as Islamic?

IRIN Asia | INDONESIA: Female genital mutilation persists despite ban | Indonesia | Gender Issues | Health & Nutrition

That article is pretty old, they actually re-legalised it shortly after.

Indonesia Ignores UN Ban on Female Circumcision, Denies Mutilation - The Jakarta Globe

The day I saw 248 girls suffering genital mutilation | Society | The Guardian

It is a specifically Islamic practice in Indonesia otherwise it would have a greater presence among non-Muslim Indonesians. It is generally supported by clerics as being a religious requirement, and the Majelis Ulema Indonesia (Council of Indonesian Clerics) actively campaigned for its relegalisation.

As well as seeing it as a religious requirement, people believe uncircumcised girls are 'unclean' and will grow up to be promiscuous and bring shame on them.

FGM is definitely an accepted Islamic practice for many people, there's no doubt about that whatsoever. Islam definitely perpetuates and spreads FGM, again undeniable.

The counter argument is that FGM is not a religious requirement with a Quranic basis, but is a non-binding point of Islamic jurisprudence that relates to a specific time/place rather than being a universal and timeless requirement. Therefore, we should stop doing it now as we have moved past that time and place.

 

[Shad]

FGM has support in hadith from two major sources, another recommends the act rather than it being an obligation. FGM may not be uniquely Islamic but Islam has done little to stop the practice.

If your sources were Reza Aslan keep in mind he tells half-truths in order to defend Islam. He use apologetics more than history for many of his views.

 

[Nietzsche]

If it's an 'Islamic' practice, it's one that is still primarily an African one because despite all the rape in the Middle East there's very little FGM. I'd say that in Indonesia's case, it's likely something that was brought over by African Muslims during the colonial eras.

 

[Augustus]

If it's an 'Islamic' practice, it's one that is still primarily an African one because despite all the rape in the Middle East there's very little FGM. I'd say that in Indonesia's case, it's likely something that was brought over by African Muslims during the colonial eras.

Islam gained traction in (parts of) Indonesia by traders from about the 13th C onwards, probably from Yemen or East Africa given the jurisprudence.

In the present, these practices are seen as Islamic, and don't exist in parallel communities. Islam didn't create such practices, but in Indonesia they exist and are perpetuated due to Islam as many Muslims believe them to be Islamic.

As such, I think they should be described as Islamic in nature, regardless of how they originated as it is what perpetuates the practice and its justification.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

For the last several years I’ve heard over and over again that FGM is NOT an Islamic thing, it’s an African cultural thing.

According to this article FGM is big in Indonesia, which would lead one to believe that perhaps FGM isn't as much cultural as Islamic?

IRIN Asia | INDONESIA: Female genital mutilation persists despite ban | Indonesia | Gender Issues | Health & Nutrition

It is a way to surpress sexual pleasure, and bring other values such as marriage more to the fore.

It simply works as far as I can tell. The lives of women become less dominated by seeking sexual pleasure and guided more towards other things such as marriage, friendship and family.

It is popular in islam because the love in marriage, friendship and family is judged meaningful in Islam while being stoned high from sexual pleasure isn't thought to be of much worth in the final judgement. Similarly being stoned high on canabis is also not considered to be a very meanigful feeling.

 

[Augustus]

It is a way to surpress sexual pleasure, and bring other values such as marriage more to the fore.

It simply works as far as I can tell. The lives of women become less dominated by seeking sexual pleasure and guided more towards other things such as marriage, friendship and family.

It is popular in islam because the love in marriage, friendship and family is judged meaningful in Islam while being stoned high from sexual pleasure isn't thought to be of much worth in the final judgement. Similarly being stoned high on canabis is also not considered to be a very meanigful feeling.

Because women who have not been genitally mutilated care nothing about marriage and friendship and are incapable of doing anything except aiming to fulfil their animalistic urges on whichever male happens to be closest.

FGM is simply another attempt by inadequate males to assert their dominance over their female property. People who are scared of female sexuality are people who fear women full stop. It is not about helping the girl in question, it is about the fear of that girl doing something to 'shame' the family/tribe/etc.

It's only supported by pathetic, inadequate cowards with an intrinsic contempt for and disgust of women.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Because women who have not been genitally mutilated care nothing about marriage and friendship and are incapable of doing anything except aiming to fulfil their animalistic urges on whichever male happens to be closest.

FGM is simply another attempt by inadequate males to assert their dominance over their female property. People who are scared of female sexuality are people who fear women full stop. It is not about helping the girl in question, it is about the fear of that girl doing something to 'shame' the family/tribe/etc.

It's only supported by pathetic, inadequate cowards with an intrinsic contempt for and disgust of women.

I saw some documentary about this supposed terrible crime. They filmed a tribe in Africa whose women were circumcized, and they looked positively alike English upper class in the way they behaved. A recognizeable difference from the non circumcized women also shown, oozing sex appeal. They were paid to stop circumcision, while it wasn't actually clear if they wanted to. Another article noted some lower prevalence of AIDS among circumcized women. So it seemed just displaced western feminism, and not feminism of the women themselves.

 

[Yerda]

I saw some documentary about this supposed terrible crime.

Your God was incapable of doing a decent job when he made us?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Typical liberal screeching. Seen your family in the last year? Unlike you these women have a complex ordered social life. Many of these women choose circumcision of their own free will.

I'm not a liberal AT ALL. Now are you going to be consistent or persist in your hypocrisy?

 

[JoStories]

Certainly you are a liberal because you ignore completely what these people choose themselves.

Have you been to Africa and talked to these women? To think they had choice is total bull merde. As another poster stated, why not show your comadarie and have a penectomy, and removal of your sexual pleasure organs, then talk to me about what this does to women. I suggest you....never mind... The things I think about you are not fit to post.

 

[Riverwolf]

The lives of women become less dominated by seeking sexual pleasure and guided more towards other things such as marriage, friendship and family.

Similar arguments could be said, and has been said, of lobotomy.

Besides, without a clearly established before/after, you can't possibly know that.

Here's something for you to consider: some people over here are naturally more inclined towards romance and marriage than sexual pleasure, without being circumcised. In fact, asexuality is a thing that exists. Others are less interested in romance but love sexual pleasure. And if your God exists, that's how he made them, and so doesn't get to complain about it. So consider this: from where I'm standing, those women you speak of were probably already more interested in committed relationships than sexual pleasure. Those who love sexual pleasure and are forcibly and permanently denied it, on the other hand, may not be made visible to you.

 

[Kirran]

You are a liberal. With the typical revolting screeching and overbaring ways, because you propose to know as fact what is good and evil. The factual certitude about what is good and evil makes you this screechy tyrannical manipulator, completely disregarding what people choose.

Are we to assume that liberals are the same as atheists, evolutionists and determinists?

There certainly isn't free will involved here. These are little girls, 1, 2, 3 years old, who are having their genitals sliced up with a knife. I commonly hear that they have nightmares of baths filled with blood right into their adult years.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Have you been to Africa and talked to these women? To think they had choice is total bull merde. As another poster stated, why not show your comadarie and have a penectomy, and removal of your sexual pleasure organs, then talk to me about what this does to women. I suggest you....never mind... The things I think about you are not fit to post.

I think you and the other should be banned from the forum. The article referenced showed that there was also women choosing this.

 

[Kirran]

I think you and the other should be banned from the forum. The article referenced showed that there was also women choosing this.

MNS, why not slice off your penis?

 

[JoStories]

I think you and the other should be banned from the forum. The article referenced showed that there was also women choosing this.

For what exactly? Speaking the truth? And btw, you didn't answer me. Have you been to Africa and talked to these women? I have. I know. Do you? And speaking one's opinion is what this forum is about. I broke no rules whatsoever so perhaps you should reread them? Maybe after that penectomy?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Similar arguments could be said, and has been said, of lobotomy.

Besides, without a clearly established before/after, you can't possibly know that.

Here's something for you to consider: some people over here are naturally more inclined towards romance and marriage than sexual pleasure, without being circumcised. In fact, asexuality is a thing that exists. Others are less interested in romance but love sexual pleasure. And if your God exists, that's how he made them, and so doesn't get to complain about it. So consider this: from where I'm standing, those women you speak of were probably already more interested in committed relationships than sexual pleasure. Those who love sexual pleasure and are forcibly and permanently denied it, on the other hand, may not be made visible to you.

Actually it is recorded in scripture that because of original sin women got to have labour pains. So the body of the woman changed due to original sin. The body changed towards accomodating increased sexual pleasure, but increased labor pains also.

In my opinion femal circumcision would only be of use if you had a comprehensive family life which was under threat from being torn apart though sexual seduction. That is why female circumcision is of no use in the West, because there is no comprehensive family life in the West to protect, but in these other countries it is still considered as a worthwhile option because they still have a comprehensive family life.

In these countries many people become uprooted through progress, constructing the new country. For example, truckers who ride across the country delivering goods, getting lonely. So there is a rampant increase in sexual affairs in these countries. It is not the case that this is an age old custom mindlessly performed because it is the tradition. The practice waxes and wanes when sexual affairs increase and decrease.

 

[Kirran]

For what exactly? Speaking the truth? And btw, you didn't answer me. Have you been to Africa and talked to these women? I have. I know. Do you? And speaking one's opinion is what this forum is about. I broke no rules whatsoever so perhaps you should reread them? Maybe after that penectomy?

I think MNS might have blocked me a while ago. He hasn't replied to me in a long time.

But my mother spent years working in development programs for women in Africa and the Middle East, and has a 100% negative view of this practice.

 

[Kirran]

Actually it is recorded in scripture that because of original sin women got to have labour pains. So the body of the woman changed due to original sin. The body changed towards accomodating increased sexual pleasure, but increased labor pains also.

In my opinion femal circumcision would only be of use if you had a comprehensive family life which was under threat from being torn apart though sexual seduction. That is why female circumcision is of no use in the West, because there is no comprehensive family life in the West to protect, but in these other countries it is still considered as a worthwhile option because they still have a comprehensive family life.

In these countries many people become uprooted through progress, constructing the new country. For example, truckers who ride across the country delivering goods, getting lonely. So there is a rampant increase in sexual affairs in these countries. It is not the case that this is an age old custom mindlessly performed because it is the tradition. The practice waxes and wanes when sexual affairs increase and decrease.

So why shouldn't men have some form of surgery done to them as babies which makes sense painful for them?

 

[Riverwolf]

Actually it is recorded in scripture that because of original sin women got to have labour pains. So the body of the woman changed due to original sin. The body changed towards accomodating increased sexual pleasure, but increased labor pains also.

Something I've no reason to take seriously. Frankly I find that notion rather stupid, and thus not worthy of consideration.

In my opinion femal circumcision would only be of use if you had a comprehensive family life which was under threat from being torn apart though sexual seduction. That is why female circumcision is of no use in the West, because there is no comprehensive family life in the West to protect, but in these other countries it is still considered as a worthwhile option because they still have a comprehensive family life.

Hooooo, dude, you haven't been in "the West" much, have you?

There is PLENTY in terms of comprehensive family life, for those who choose to live in them. If seduction were a threat to such things (and I see no reason why women should be singled out), then there are far, far safer alternatives, because women have every right to enjoy sex if they want to, as much as men.

In these countries many people become uprooted through progress, constructing the new country. For example, truckers who ride across the country delivering goods, getting lonely. So there is a rampant increase in sexual affairs in these countries. It is not the case that this is an age old custom mindlessly performed because it is the tradition. The practice waxes and wanes when sexual affairs increase and decrease.

Truckers are hardly a microcosm. You can't point to any one way of life and say it's an example of life in general for a third of the world's population.

Besides, I see nothing inherently wrong with people who love casual sex, so long as they're safe about it. These things can be self-controlled without having to permanently alter the body.

I, myself, am not sexually promiscuous, despite not having the kind of family that was part of the 1950s "American Dream" thing.