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Is FGM really cultural?

"Born Eunuch"

Anonymous American Black Male
For the last several years I’ve heard over and over again that FGM is NOT an Islamic thing, it’s an African cultural thing.

According to this article FGM is big in Indonesia, which would lead one to believe that perhaps FGM isn't as much cultural as Islamic?

IRIN Asia | INDONESIA: Female genital mutilation persists despite ban | Indonesia | Gender Issues | Health & Nutrition

Didn't read article, but my feeling is that if males can be circumcised then why can't females be circumcised? Perhaps 5,000 years ago (in less modern times) "God" commanded Abraham to circumcise his children with methods that today's world might call "unhealthy." So why then would there be a big deal today if boys and girls in Africa are circumcised with methods that this world might call "unhealthy?"



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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
River, I'm sorry if you thought I meant only my people are embracing this mindset.


No apologies needed. I didn't mean that. :)

More and more are doing same, which, IMO, is awesome. I started my nursing career when I was 16 in a nursing home kitchen. I have seen some that are not terrible and I have seen some that still give me nightmares. I agree with you about not wasting away in such a place. Which is why ALL of my family have DNR/DNI orders. They have heard my stories of these nightmares and never want to experience that. One can hope that more and more will return to the idea of family being family in the literal sense and take care of their own.

Yeah. Any time there's a cultural paradigm shift, families are going to break to a degree, since the old wisdom don't apply much anymore. Without that trust, younger generations are going to turn elsewhere just naturally.

Things will settle down once the paradigm stabilizes again, I'm sure.

And I am sorry you don't know your people very well. But if you have the kind of hearing and they are loud, I can't imagine how frustrating that can be.

It's horrible. But they're wonderful people, don't get me wrong. Nowadays it's more negative association, because when I'm with my friends, we're pretty much just as loud. LOL

If they all got together and weren't loud at this point, I'd be seriously worried.


Agreed that getting around the city itself can be a PIA but when I lived there, I either took the BART or simply walked. Its a nice walk around the city. My favorite places were the Presidio, of course the piers and Chinatown. I took my grandchildren to a Cirque de Soliel down by the waterfront. My grandson, three at the time, never moved in 3 hours. Can you imagine? If one has not seen a Cirque de Soliel, and I saw several in Vegas as well, my word they are amazing.

I've never seen one. I will someday. ^_^
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Unlike you, muslims accept free will is real.

And since free will exists, female circumcision shouldn't be necessary because women have the full ability to make the choice between a close family life and a promiscuous sexual life themselves, without having to change their bodies.

Claiming that circumcision is necessary for them to feel close to their families is itself an implication that free will doesn't exist.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Exaggeration, one sided, scientism.

See how evolution theory becomes to be an excuse to take charge of the health of people regardless of what the people want. These evolutionists propose to know as fact what is good and evil. And when it is fact that female circumcision is evil, then there is nothing to choose about it. Any reasoning with an evolutionist about an issue is a waste of time. They have no idea about how decisions are made, and their judgement on what people feel, their spirit, is without emotional depth, because they do not even consider people have emotions because emotions cannot be measured.

I can't say I know the issue very well, but from what I saw there could well be a significant and recognizeable effect on how women behave. The very short view I had on TV of women in the bush behaving in a restrained manner with much individuality showed me that there may be something worthwhile in it. And as in all countries pornography becomes widespread through the internet and advertising, it's no wonder that female circumcision is increasing in popularity among women who like to have a family life.

Not for me, thanks. I like having my reproductive organs intact.

I'd like an answer though...what happens to whores over there?
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
And since free will exists, female circumcision shouldn't be necessary because women have the full ability to make the choice between a close family life and a promiscuous sexual life themselves, without having to change their bodies.

Claiming that circumcision is necessary for them to feel close to their families is itself an implication that free will doesn't exist.

I caught a sight of the spirit of these circumcised women, which made me think there is something to it.

And because you all don't do subjectivity in regards to acknowledging the spirit of people, you all disregard things like that. That's what makes what all these evolutionists have to say about it worthless social darwinism.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I caught a sight of the spirit of these circumcised women, which made me think there is something to it.

And because you all don't do subjectivity in regards to acknowledging the spirit of people, you all disregard things like that. That's what makes what all these evolutionists have to say about it worthless social darwinism.

You're doing an awful lot of projecting; assuming things about us, and saying that we're automatically wrong just because we appear to have certain traits that you find disagreeable.

Thing is, you have absolutely no basis for these projections. Hence, they fall under the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominim. You're also bringing in evolution, which is a subject entirely unrelated to this topic, and entirely unrelated to the nonsensical philosophy of social darwinism.

This type of argumentation is making your overall argument look weak, since no support for it is provided.

If you read my posts elsewhere, you'd see that I am a huge proponent of subjectivity. I'm also quite aware of the "spirit" of people. As a result, your projections become really bad for your argument, since this time, it's based on your ability to see these womens' "spirit". However, since you're projecting false assumptions about us, I can't trust that you're experience of these womens' spirit is accurate.

I've already said that I'd have no problem with an adult woman, without any social pressure, choosing this for herself if she wants. BUT, it has to be without social pressure. Otherwise, it's like women in the West who go on dangerous diets. Technically they chose it, but it was made with strong peer pressure, and thus qualifies as coercion.

Do you know what coercion is?
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
You're doing an awful lot of projecting; assuming things about us, and saying that we're automatically wrong just because we appear to have certain traits that you find disagreeable.

Thing is, you have absolutely no basis for these projections. Hence, they fall under the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominim. You're also bringing in evolution, which is a subject entirely unrelated to this topic, and entirely unrelated to the nonsensical philosophy of social darwinism.

This type of argumentation is making your overall argument look weak, since no support for it is provided.

If you read my posts elsewhere, you'd see that I am a huge proponent of subjectivity. I'm also quite aware of the "spirit" of people. As a result, your projections become really bad for your argument, since this time, it's based on your ability to see these womens' "spirit". However, since you're projecting false assumptions about us, I can't trust that you're experience of these womens' spirit is accurate.

I've already said that I'd have no problem with an adult woman, without any social pressure, choosing this for herself if she wants. BUT, it has to be without social pressure. Otherwise, it's like women in the West who go on dangerous diets. Technically they chose it, but it was made with strong peer pressure, and thus qualifies as coercion.

Do you know what coercion is?

There was just a lot of screeching about removing my penis, and lot of exaggeration and pontification besides.

No I cannot see you applying subjectivity in a meaninhful way. You are part of this anti-freedom anti-subjectivity thing that's dominant on these forums. I just wonder what a discussion would look like with people who actually accepted as fact that freedom is real, and who accept subjectivity is valid. It is quite useless to have discussions with social darwinists, because they always brutalize people's emotions, trying to get rid of emotions, while subjectivity is essential on such issues.

Now you pay the price for wanton rejection of the fact that freedom is real in regards to creationism, because there is really no sense in listening to somebody talk about people when they don't know how to deal with subjectivity.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Oh I get it. Women and girls are only free to choose what degree they would prefer to be mutilated. If they choose unapologetically not to be mutilated or in pain or any ounce of brutality against them in favor of pleasure, they're whores and dishonorable.

Wow. What a paternalistic, dehumanizing, and barbaric perspective.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
There was just a lot of screeching about removing my penis, and lot of exaggeration and pontification besides.

Castration is the equivalent to female circumcision. Since sperm is made in the testicles, you can still be fertile.

No I cannot see you applying subjectivity in a meaninhful way.

Define "meaningful".

You are part of this anti-freedom anti-subjectivity thing that's dominant on these forums.

Tell me, should women be free to not get circumcised?

I just wonder what a discussion would look like with people who actually accepted as fact that freedom is real, and who accept subjectivity is valid.

Exactly what it looks like, now.

It is quite useless to have discussions with social darwinists,

So true. Good thing there aren't any, here.

Then again, I don't think you know what social darwinism is.

because they always brutalize people's emotions, trying to get rid of emotions, while subjectivity is essential on such issues.

What do emotions have to do with anything?

As someone who's hyper-emotional, emotions are wonderful. I love them. I'd never want them to go away. It's my emotions that allow me to empathize with others, and experience joy and sorrows, both my own and others.

However, emotions can also cloud judgment, and so should not be used as the basis for rational debate.

Now you pay the price for wanton rejection of the fact that freedom is real in regards to creationism, because there is really no sense in listening to somebody talk about people when they don't know how to deal with subjectivity.

Dude, are you even reading our posts? I seriously feel like you're not even reading my posts, and just assuming I'm saying stuff and responding to what you assume I'm saying in your head. Either that, or you don't really know what freedom and subjectivity are.

Freedom, first of all, only exists in terms of freedom from something else. It doesn't exist on its own. Subjectivity involves subject-object relationships, and thus is the only rational way to look at things in the first place.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Castration is the equivalent to female circumcision. Since sperm is made in the testicles, you can still be fertile.



Define "meaningful".



Tell me, should women be free to not get circumcised?



Exactly what it looks like, now.



So true. Good thing there aren't any, here.

Then again, I don't think you know what social darwinism is.



What do emotions have to do with anything?

As someone who's hyper-emotional, emotions are wonderful. I love them. I'd never want them to go away. It's my emotions that allow me to empathize with others, and experience joy and sorrows, both my own and others.

However, emotions can also cloud judgment, and so should not be used as the basis for rational debate.



Dude, are you even reading our posts? I seriously feel like you're not even reading my posts, and just assuming I'm saying stuff and responding to what you assume I'm saying in your head. Either that, or you don't really know what freedom and subjectivity are.

Freedom, first of all, only exists in terms of freedom from something else. It doesn't exist on its own. Subjectivity involves subject-object relationships, and thus is the only rational way to look at things in the first place.

I read your posts. Blablabla ...emotions cloud judgement and therefore should be removed to have a rational discussion.

That is what I read.

Then you imagine some things about freedom and subjectivity showing you don't have a ready practical understanding of it in your mind.

Creationism, like other science, is also demanding to get the facts exactly right about how things are decided. I do not see any discipline about it to get those facts right.

I'm still left with my admittedly superficial judgement on the spirit of these circumcized women which looked special and good to me. And nothing was said that helped me to make a better judgement than I had.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
And since free will exists, female circumcision shouldn't be necessary because women have the full ability to make the choice between a close family life and a promiscuous sexual life themselves, without having to change their bodies.

Claiming that circumcision is necessary for them to feel close to their families is itself an implication that free will doesn't exist.
From what I saw and heard in Africa, it's far from free will. Girls are coerced and often simply taken against their will and this is done, more often than not under the grossest conditions, meaning with no anesthesia and will nothing more than a kitchen knife. It leaves the child scarred and mutilated as well as often incontinent. To imagine that a girl wants this is ignorance in the most extreme.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
My mother worked with these people for decades in Ethiopia, Oman, Yemen, Saudi Arabia. It certainly is not some happy choice.

True. It's more of a case of "I better get this done or else bad things will happen for me and my family."

Coercion 101.
 
It is not mentioned in Quran so it is a cultural thing.

Islam is a 'cultural thing' too though. Many people practice FGM because they believe it is Islamic, this is their view, so how can we say it is not Islamic? A whole lot of what is considered 'Islam' isn't in the Quran. Islam is as Muslims do.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Islam is a 'cultural thing' too though. Many people practice FGM because they believe it is Islamic, this is their view, so how can we say it is not Islamic? A whole lot of what is considered 'Islam' isn't in the Quran. Islam is as Muslims do.

They are wrong or misinformed.
If something is not in Quran then it is not a part of Islam.

Regard
 
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