Dualism- God and Devil?

[Master Vigil]

Well, what created the random quantum event, and what created the universe in which it took place. Everything is Tao. Not just the "random quantum events." As everything changes, that is the Tao. As everything is born, that is the Tao. As everything dies, that is the Tao. The difference between taoism and atheism, is the fact that the Tao supercedes all, and creates all. Created science, and created the random quantum events.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Master-

By random I mean acausal- there is no cause, the events simply happen for no reason at all. It sounds bizarre, but it is a legitimate theory that is being taken very seriously among physicists (to the best of my knowledge- maybe I'm misinformed). Anyways, I suppose this isn't the right place to discuss Taoism- my bad <

 

[Master Vigil]

I don't believe anything happens without a reason. I believe everything has a cause. A random event's cause would be its randomness. And the Tao caused that randomness. Not many people understand Taoism. I hope to help you understand it more.

 

[anders]

"A random event's cause would be its randomness."

I like that! Pure Taoism, and it would probably go well with at least Zen Buddhism as well.

Furthermore, events that we regard as random perhaps appear that way because of our imperfect knowledge. Radioactive decay of atoms appears to occur randomly, but perhaps there will be an explanation as we proceed along the Tao.

 

[Green Gaia]

Duality in general is a human concept and in the realm of God, no such thing exists: all is God and of God. Humans need the concept of duality to define the world around us; up and down, black and white, good and evil, right and left. These dualities help us define our world and understand it. Not sure how this relates to the original question, I just wanted to interject that...

 

[Master Vigil]

Its true, The Tao sort of doesn't have the dualities. But the perfect balance between the two making the dualities unrecognizable. The dualities do exist in the spiritual realm though. You have what people percieve of as good and evil spirits. Water spirits, fire spirits, etc... However, just to say that duality is a human concept is a little narrow. I would say it is a natural concept. And once we become one with the Tao, all dualities cease to exist.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Master Vigil, I know you don't believe in random things caused by its randomness- but a lot of physicists might disagree with you, and their disagreements are backed up by a lot of evidence in the field. A lot of people don't beleive in evolution, either- but the fact is that evolution is one of the most widely accepted and supported theories among scientists in history.

I do agree that quantum events may only appear random because of our imperfect knowledge. That's what a lot of scientists thought at first. However, now they think these events might just be random after all, after the aforementioned experiments were carried out.

At any rate, is it really that far-fetched that, at the tiniest, miniscule level, events are acausal? After all, you can never truly find a logical "final cause" for everything- even if you claim that final cause to be God, or Tao. For, what caused God (or Tao)? If it's within the realm of human comprehension to say "nothing caused God" or "nothing caused Tao" then why is it illogical to say "nothing causes quantum events"? Maybe quantum events ARE God, or Tao.

Still, it's not like I'm a physicist and can prove any of this randomness/quantum theory stuff is true- it's just a theory that has gained momentum. 8)

 

[Runt]

Mr_Spinkles--

Not that I disagree with you... I just find it interesting to note that the scientific reality of almost every period of history was thrown out in large part by later scientists. That is what people seem to forget when looking at our world scientificially... it is very probable that over the next 100 years what we regard as scientific fact will be disproven or altered by later scientists.

As it it, new theories are already drastically changing scientific thought... even the idea you were talking about, that physics really IS random, whereas a few years ago scientists thought it only appeared random because of our limited understanding...

I believe scientific reality is able to coexist with spiritual reality... but in some cases I find spiritual truth MORE reliable than scientific truth because spiritual truth deals with easily understood, recognizable, archetypal universal truths that stand alongside science (or are sometimes considered PART of science in psychology... which recognizes that human perception of reality rests in large part on a symbolic system of meaning)...whether or not there really IS a God, or a soul...

 

[Master Vigil]

I do believe in evolution. But I also believe that something caused evolution. And I understand that alot of physicists might disagree with me. So might a 5 year old child. It makes no difference for me. I understand that they think the events might be random. But no one knows for sure. And like I said, the cause or random things is randomness. What caused randomness? The Tao. The Tao was not caused by anything, for it is eternal. But since I believe that random quantum events to have a cause... its randomness. Than they cannot be the Tao. They are apart of the Tao however, especially being that they were created by the Tao. Anything that science discovers, was caused by the Tao. Will science ever discover the Eternal Tao? I am not sure, I highly doubt it. But in a million years, anything is possible.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I just find it interesting to note that the scientific reality of almost every period of history was thrown out in large part by later scientists.

I agree with what you're saying here, but at the same time I think that science is always building upon and adding to the knowledge it has gained in the past, and a lot of the knowledge gained is only confirmed over and over again, rather than thrown out.

 

[Runt]

True true. But I have to wonder which of our present knowledge will be built on, and which will be thrown out. It all depends on future scientific experiements and discoveries... who knows WHAT scientists will find in the near future! *waits excitedly*

 

[Mr Spinkles]

lol good point Runt- I'm excited too! Go science!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Well, what if Quantum theory turns out to be correct, and the Big Bang is therefore explained because a random quantum event could have caused it. You're saying that that random quantum event would be "Tao"?

That sounds to me like you would be in total agreement then with atheists, only you have labeled something that occurs in nature (random quantum events) with the name "Tao".

 

[Master Vigil]

Well, what created the random quantum event, and what created the universe in which it took place. Everything is Tao. Not just the "random quantum events." As everything changes, that is the Tao. As everything is born, that is the Tao. As everything dies, that is the Tao. The difference between taoism and atheism, is the fact that the Tao supercedes all, and creates all. Created science, and created the random quantum events.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Master-

By random I mean acausal- there is no cause, the events simply happen for no reason at all. It sounds bizarre, but it is a legitimate theory that is being taken very seriously among physicists (to the best of my knowledge- maybe I'm misinformed). Anyways, I suppose this isn't the right place to discuss Taoism- my bad <

 

[Master Vigil]

I don't believe anything happens without a reason. I believe everything has a cause. A random event's cause would be its randomness. And the Tao caused that randomness. Not many people understand Taoism. I hope to help you understand it more.

 

[anders]

"A random event's cause would be its randomness."

I like that! Pure Taoism, and it would probably go well with at least Zen Buddhism as well.

Furthermore, events that we regard as random perhaps appear that way because of our imperfect knowledge. Radioactive decay of atoms appears to occur randomly, but perhaps there will be an explanation as we proceed along the Tao.

 

[Green Gaia]

Duality in general is a human concept and in the realm of God, no such thing exists: all is God and of God. Humans need the concept of duality to define the world around us; up and down, black and white, good and evil, right and left. These dualities help us define our world and understand it. Not sure how this relates to the original question, I just wanted to interject that...

 

[Master Vigil]

Its true, The Tao sort of doesn't have the dualities. But the perfect balance between the two making the dualities unrecognizable. The dualities do exist in the spiritual realm though. You have what people percieve of as good and evil spirits. Water spirits, fire spirits, etc... However, just to say that duality is a human concept is a little narrow. I would say it is a natural concept. And once we become one with the Tao, all dualities cease to exist.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Master Vigil, I know you don't believe in random things caused by its randomness- but a lot of physicists might disagree with you, and their disagreements are backed up by a lot of evidence in the field. A lot of people don't beleive in evolution, either- but the fact is that evolution is one of the most widely accepted and supported theories among scientists in history.

I do agree that quantum events may only appear random because of our imperfect knowledge. That's what a lot of scientists thought at first. However, now they think these events might just be random after all, after the aforementioned experiments were carried out.

At any rate, is it really that far-fetched that, at the tiniest, miniscule level, events are acausal? After all, you can never truly find a logical "final cause" for everything- even if you claim that final cause to be God, or Tao. For, what caused God (or Tao)? If it's within the realm of human comprehension to say "nothing caused God" or "nothing caused Tao" then why is it illogical to say "nothing causes quantum events"? Maybe quantum events ARE God, or Tao.

Still, it's not like I'm a physicist and can prove any of this randomness/quantum theory stuff is true- it's just a theory that has gained momentum. 8)