Black African Origins for the Ancient Egyptians

[EtuMalku]

Cool . The race issue is nothing more than willful ignorance that was borne out of the African Holocaust (Trans Atlantic Slave trade/Colonization).

Keep in mind though, Africans sold Africans as slaves as well. It is not that different than how the drug dealers work in big cities, screwing over their own people.

But that aside, I happen to be a great fan of Egypt and its history and religion (not to mention its music).

 

[psychoslice]

Keep in mind though, Africans sold Africans as slaves as well. It is not that different than how the drug dealers work in big cities, screwing over their own people.

But that aside, I happen to be a great fan of Egypt and its history and religion (not to mention its music).

Yep i'm a fan of Egypt also, but i have no interest in their skin colour.

 

[Asante]

Here is a Dogon (West Africa/Mali) connection pointed out:

They are said to be the descended of exiled Ancient Egyptians priest and through this their baffling and detailed knowledge about astronomy and our solar system is a testament to that:

[youtube]g0oiYB5JQAg[/youtube]

Very GOOD and interesting documentary above (not too long either).

 

[Asante]

Keep in mind though, Africans sold Africans as slaves as well. It is not that different than how the drug dealers work in big cities, screwing over their own people.

Whoa there (lol)...European Chattel Slavery and the African (not Arab) system of slavery are two different planets. African slavery didn't condemn a captives from rivaling tribes to generations of brutality and cruelty. In fact the word "serf" or farmer is the word used to describe the entry level slave position in most West African societies. They were not prohibited from owning land, marrying within the tribe or having children. Those individuals who were captured could not only buy there freedom but in many cases become high ranking nobility in that tribe after a while. There children were FREE and regular members of the tribe with no shadow looming over their heads of "inferiority".

European Chattel Slavery was SATANIC...

[youtube]T395oQLqUDw[/youtube]

The sad thing about the movie Django is that those are the untold stories and events that went throughout it's tenure. Some gruesome events are even recorded in slave narrative and what not. Think about the rape

IMAGINE WHAT THAT LOOKED AND FELT LIKE WHEN BEFORE IT HEALED....Can you imagine watching helplessly as your mother, daughter, sister, little brother, dad, aunt, GRANDPARENT get beat and screaming and crying at the top their lungs. Or not being able to do anything while a disgusting pedophile drags your child off to the house to raped. STARVING all day. ect ect ect ect... basically there is no comparison, even though some folks like to try to pretend that you can "distribute the evil" so to speak between both parties so to speak.

 

[Asante]

I think that Mesopotamia, Egypt, and the Indus valley civilizations all mixed prior to Rome or Greece ever joining the picture.

See that's an example of you just wanting to believe what you want to believe..."damn the evidence I want them to be mixed race ". That's basically what I interpret you as saying.

I think to use modern day terminology of "black" and "white" is a misnomer to say the least.

Ancient Egyptians used the word black to define themselves in numerous ways:

What does Kemet mean?

People in Egypt today call their country by the Arabic name of ‘Misr’. The word ‘Egypt’ is the name that the Ancient Greeks gave to the country and is still used in Europe today. Prior to Europe’s involvement with Egypt, the people of Ancient Egypt had many names for their country such as ‘Ta Mery’ (the beloved land), ‘Ta Sety’ (the land of the bow) which was used for the southern most regions of the country and Nubia (see below). Another name was 'Kemet', which means ‘the black land’. All of these names were originally spelt without vowels, so for example Kmt.
The meaning of Kemet has been much debated. The word was spelt with four hieroglyphs: a piece of crocodile skin with spines making the sound K; an owl making the sound M and a half loaf of bread making the sound T. The round symbol represents a crossroads and shows the reader that in this context this is a place name. There are parallels – Sudan for example comes from the Arabic Bilad-al-sudan meaning country of the blacks and Ethiopia derives from the Greek meaning ‘burnt-face’ in reference to the people and their black skin. The word kem means ‘black’. However, people have interpreted the reference to the colour black this in two different ways:


In reference to the colour of the silt of the Nile and so the fertile soil of Egypt
In reference to the colour of the people

Fitzwilliam

Regardless of it they fervently referred to themselves as black or not it does not change the fact that the ancient Egyptians were black Africans.

 

[psychoslice]

Bad things have been done by all colors of people, just look at idi amin what he did to his own people, are we going to blame him because he is black ?.

 

[EtuMalku]

Whoa there (lol)...European Chattel Slavery and the African (not Arab) system of slavery are two different planets. African slavery didn't condemn a captives from rivaling tribes to generations of brutality and cruelty. In fact the word "serf" or farmer is the word used to describe the entry level slave position in most West African societies. They were not prohibited from owning land, marrying within the tribe or having children. Those individuals who were captured could not only buy there freedom but in many cases become high ranking nobility in that tribe after a while. There children were FREE and regular members of the tribe with no shadow looming over their heads of "inferiority".

European Chattel Slavery was SATANIC...

Slavery is slavery dude. Africans chained them up and shipped them out like anyone else.

Explain to me how European Chattel Slavery would be Satanic?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

black skin and long limbs..think black NBA players

"Egyptians also fall within the range of modern African populations (Ruff and Walker, 1993), but close to the upper limit of modern Europeans as well...we found that ancient Egyptians are significantly different from US Blacks, although still closer to Blacks than to Whites."

Raxter, M. H., Ruff, C. B., Azab, A., Erfan, M., Soliman, M., & El‐Sawaf, A. (2008). Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: a new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature. American journal of physical anthropology, 136(2), 147-155.

On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007).

From Irish & Konigsberg's study cited above:
"Inspection of the original D2 matrix (their Table 5.6: 84) does, in reality, indicate a Badarian affiliation to North Africans, not sub-Saharan samples" p. 150 of
Irish, J. D., & Konigsberg, L. (2007). The ancient inhabitants of Jebel Moya Redux: measures of population affinity based on dental morphology. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, 17(2), 138-156.

Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990)

Two issues:
1) Crichton's study was in 1966, not 1996.
2) Keita's 1990 study concludes "The Badari and Nagada I cranial patterns emerge as tropical African variants...In summary, canonical variate analysis demonstrates the impressive variation suggested previously for early northern Africa."
3) Why that study by Keita? If you are interested in physical characteristics of Africans (Egypt is in Africa) during some period of time and across some region (including Egypt), Keita's study on craniofacial variation would seem more what you want:
"The position of Nile Valley and Horn individuals considered collectively is seen to be at the ‘‘extreme’’ of the two morphometric trends, but overlapping the greatest with the other Africans and Europeans. Stated in relative morphometric terms, they tend to exhibit narrower bases in relationship to more projecting faces, and broader nasal areas than Europeans, although there is a range of variation. Relative to the other African groups they have narrower nasal areas, and narrower faces in relationship to vault length."

Keita, S. O. Y. (2004). Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal components analysis. American Journal of Human Biology, 16(6), 679-689.

To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor.

...not Egypt's Egyptian ancestor. Did you read the paper?
"If the Egyptian Predynastic took advantage of the Nubian social development process, Nubia did the same in return. These Nubian kings (or, more precisely, chiefs) adopted the same royal iconography as that of the Egyptian kings.
There is no archaeological information for Upper Nubia at this time but it is likely that chiefdoms were present there as well (as many historical Egyptian texts report; Roccati 1982)."

The study is about the relationship between "African" ancestry among Egyptians, bot claiming that the Nubians were somehow the "original Egyptians". Quite the contrary, actually. It is to identify possible interactions to explain the presence of genetic, archaeological, and literary evidence of African-Egyptian links.

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.

Nice editing: "values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relativeto the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans."

The study was about Egyptian physiology from a diachronic perspective. It wasn't a comparison between physiological characteristics between Egyptians and the rest of Africa. You edited out the line that indicates differences between Egyptian populations and many African populations.

The strong cultural connection between the ancient Egyptians and the modern peoples of the Upper Nile/Great Lakes region has been noted by scholars for over a century now:

Of course. So has the connection between Egypt and the Near East and the contrasts between the Egyptians and nearby African regions:, not to mention the disdain the Egyptians had for their African neighbors:
"Various studies strongly suggest that ancient Egyptians were a distinctive people early in the pharaonic period, but with much of the same variations of physical characteristics that one sees in modern Egypt...Their artistic representations of their neighbors are demeaning, and they clearly show that the ancient Egyptians considered themselves physically different from Nubians and other sub-Saharan Africans in facial features and skin tones, and from “Asiatics” as well"
Wenke, R. J., & Olszewski, D. (1990). Patterns in prehistory: humankind's first three million years. Oxford University Press.

Anthropological research consistently concludes that the earliest ancient Egyptians were black Africans

Sure, so long as
1) We toss out most of the evidence and read our interpretations into what remains: "In 1981 Diop confidently asserted that ‘Egyptians were Negroes, thick-lipped, kinky-haired and thin-legged’. Although it is certainly true that some surviving Egyptian mummies or depictions of ancient Egyptians fit this description, the fact is that most of both the former and the latter are anthropologically and visually quite different to Diop’s description."
2) Adopt a basic mistrust for mainstream contemporary anthropology: "to assume, as many Afrocentrists appear to do, first that much conventional Egyptological thought is still infected by such racism, and second that the very existence of such prejudice in some way proves that, contrary to much of the visual and written evidence, ancient Egyptians were both black and African, seems a little unjustified."
from Shaw's Ancient Egypt

The ancient Nile Valley populations were essentially bands of various different black African tribes

"While some researchers support the idea of gene flow along the Nile Valley (e.g., Keita 2005; Krings et al. 1999; Lalueza Fox 1997; Lucotte and Mercier 2003), others describe a remarkable degree of genetic isolation and in situ biological evolution within Nubian and Egyptian groups (e.g., Brace et al. 1993; Carlson and Van Gerven 1979; Johnson and Lovell 1995; Prowse and Lovell 1995)."

Buzon, M. (2006). Biological and ethnic identity in New Kingdom Nubia. Current anthropology, 47(4), 683-695.

 

[Poeticus]

So, were they white, brown, yellow, black, magenta, maroon, crimson....what? Someone help me out here...

 

[Curious George]

See that's an example of you just wanting to believe what you want to believe..."damn the evidence I want them to be mixed race ". That's basically what I interpret you as saying.


.

Perhaps. I do not believe that is what I am saying though. I am willing to keep an open mind, but if I remember correctly there were also examples of lighter skinned Egyptians provided in the other thread. I am pretty sure all people are "mixed" though. Whether your skin is lily white or ebony, you are mixed. People mix. It's what they do. So I am not sure what you mean by mixed race. I tried to understand in the last thread what you meant by black, and you suggested having near ancestors to Africa. Sure that's fine. But all of this fair skinned Egyptians are black. If you are going to define skin color by geographic location then appearances can be deceiving. If you are going to define it in terms of pigmentation then not just Africans are black, and many Africans are not black simply because they are not black enough on your scale. It gets rather silly. There are certainly evidences of trade between the there great civilizations, why in the world would people not have sexual relations as well? Ultimately, your quest is good when you are questioning why society refuses to portray Egyptians with darker skin, but your mission doesn't stop there does it? You insinuate that a large number of natural inhabitants of both Egypt and the middle east have no original ties to the land or culture. You assert that there are a group of "pure blood" Egyptians that still remain and have been displaced. I agree that some, if not the majority of Egyptians could have looked like any number of remaining tribes in Africa, but that certainly doesn't mean there was not plenty of lighter skinned Egyptians as well. The same is true for your pictures, sure there are pictures depicting dark skinned Egyptians, because some were dark skinned, but there are also pictures of light skinned Egyptians because some were light skinned.

 

[Asante]

lol Legion your post looks very fun I will deal with it when I wake up...:yes:

 

[Asante]

Raxter, M. H., Ruff, C. B., Azab, A., Erfan, M., Soliman, M., & El‐Sawaf, A. (2008). Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: a new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature. American journal of physical anthropology, 136(2), 147-155.

Well what you cited was nice and all but it was completely out of context and subsequently not at all indicative of the overall conclusion of the study:

"Intralimb (crural and brachial) indices are significantly higher in ancient Egyptians than in American Whites (except crural index among females), i.e., Egyptians have relatively longer distal segments (Table 4). Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks... Many of those who have studied ancient Egyptians have commented on their characteristically ''tropical'' or ''African'' body plan (Warren, 1897; Masali, 1972; Robins, 1983; Robins and Shute, 1983, 1984, 1986; Zakrzewski, 2003). Egyptians also fall within the range of modern African populations (Ruff and Walker, 1993), but close to the upper limit of modern Europeans as well, at least for the crural index (brachial indices are definitely more ''African'').. In terms of femoral and tibial length to total skeletal height proportions, we found that ancient Egyptians are significantly different from US Blacks, although still closer to Blacks than to Whites.

Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range. In general, recent studies of skeletal variation among ancient Egyptians support scenarios of biological continuity through time. Irish (2006) analyzed quantitative and qualitative dental traits of 996 Egyptians from Neolithic through Roman periods, reporting the presence of a few outliers but concluding that the dental samples appear to be largely homogeneous and that the affinities observed indicate overall biological uniformity and continuity from Predynastic through Dynastic and Postdynastic periods.

Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods. She found that the earlier samples were relatively more homogeneous in comparison to the later groups. However, overall results indicated genetic continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic diversity within the population, suggesting an indigenous process of state formation. She also concluded that while the biological patterning of the Egyptian population varied across time, no consistent temporal or spatial trends are apparent. Thus, the stature estimation formulae developed here may be broadly applicable to all ancient Egyptian populations.."

("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, (Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55

What this study proves is that the ancient Egyptians were generally tropically adapted like most other black Africans from the pre-dynastic period until around the late Dynastic period when the "outliner" groups (Greco-Romans and Persians). As explained earlier tropical adaption based on ecological principal (Brace, 93; Keita 2008) means that you will have black-brown skin just like all other indigenous tropically adapted Africans. The study also pointed out that the tropical adaptations were consistent across class lines, so everyone from the peasant to the pharaoh had black skin...Here are the results of another limb proportion study from about a year ago:

Well what do ya know...Yet again the ancient Egyptians cluster with other longed limbed black Africans. What a surprise, because no other studies have made the same conclusions (sarcasm).

From Irish & Konigsberg's study cited above:
"Inspection of the original D2 matrix (their Table 5.6: 84) does, in reality, indicate a Badarian affiliation to North Africans, not sub-Saharan samples" p. 150 of Irish, J. D., & Konigsberg, L. (2007). The ancient inhabitants of Jebel Moya Redux: measures of population affinity based on dental morphology. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, 17(2), 138-156.

The funny thing about this citation is that I have only see this exact exert on just two sites on a google search. None the less the key word is "samples". Sub Saharan African have the most dental diversity on Earth and his likely limited "Sub Saharan" samples likely do not properly reflect that vast diversity. His use of the term "North African" is not mutually exclusive with black African as you are suggesting. North Africa-Sahara has always been inhabitted by black Africans. To this day Sudan, Chad, Niger, southern Libya, Algeria, southern Morocco (North Africa) are dominated by black Africans ethnic groups (where do you think that those poor Darfurians live?):

What is so interesting about the study that you site however is that it's primary focus is on the very ancient Jebel Moya (black Sudanese) site which is also considered "North African"...So once again you have no point with this study.

Two issues: 1) Crichton's study was in 1966, not 1996.

Now common sense...Doesn't that look more like a typo to you? I am assuming that you are just griping about the typing error and not the actual date. If you are griping about the date then why? Verifying and building on older findings is an a fundamental part of the scientific process (helping form an hypothesis).

2) Keita's 1990 study concludes "The Badari and Nagada I cranial patterns emerge as tropical African variants...In summary, canonical variate analysis demonstrates the impressive variation suggested previously for early northern Africa."

The first part of the quote =knocks your entire argument out of the ballpark...The and Badari and Naqada (the earliest Egyptian tribes) show a variation of tropical African phenotypes...In Layman terminology they were Black. "Sahara-tropical Variant African":

The variation of black Africans south of the top dotted line indicating the tropics. (truly points slightly northward as well).

Your silly implications with the second part demonstrate that you are not at all familiar with the works and principals of Dr. Keita. He does not interject the biological concept of "race" into his scientific work. The "variation" that he is speaking of is the indigenous tropical African diversity which is the greatest on the Earth. This variation reflects the distinct black African ethnic tribes that inhabitted the ancient Sahara during it's fertile period BEFORE Nile Valley civilization sprang up. After the fertile Sahara began to dry those black African ethnic tribes retreated in multiple directions and one of the primary destinations was the Nile Valley. Many of those "various" and distinct black African ethnic tribes then began to inhabit the Nile Valley and state formation began.

Keita, S. O. Y. (2004). Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal components analysis. American Journal of Human Biology, 16(6), 679-689.

Ah yes another wonderful quote actually! Do you know what it means? It confirms that indigenous black African variation that I was just explaining above. The ranges of most physical features amongst black Africans generally encompass the entire range of the rest of the World. In black Africans you will find the shortest (Pygmies) and tallest (Dinka) people on Earth. Skin tone variation ranges from the pitch black Nilotic tribes (like the Dinka again) to light skinned Brown South African (Nelson Mandela and his daughter). You have wide nose populations throughout the equatorial regions of Africa to the thinnest nosed populations on Earth like Somalis. We black Africans have the most diverse physical features while still being black Africans...

Fulani (West African)

Somalis

Akan (Ghanian)

So again I must ask what is the point that you are trying to reveal

 

[Asante]

...not Egypt's Egyptian ancestor. Did you read the paper?

Ahh Yeah I read the paper and presented the conclusion....Once again common sense if the conclusions is not that which is implying what you want then obviously your little snippet of information did not have enough weight to shift the overall position. Secondly do you even know what Ta-Seti was? It is the oldest civilization on Earth in the Sudan which 12 pharonic kings 300 years before the establishment of the Egyptian state. The earliest hieroglyphs which would later be used in Egypt were found in this Sudanese civilization:

This relatively recent finding sealed the deal in terms of what Egyptologist perceived to be the mother of ancient Egypt and most other pastoralist based societies throughout Africa.

Nice editing:...The study was about Egyptian physiology from a diachronic perspective. It wasn't a comparison between physiological characteristics between Egyptians and the rest of Africa. You edited out the line that indicates differences between Egyptian populations and many African populations.

Once again you clearly do not understand what these studies are saying. Nobody is withholding any relevant contrarian information from these studies. In fact here is the study. Now your emphasis highlights:

""values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relativeto the proximal segments than in many “African” populations

This exert is saying that the ancient Egyptians were MORE tropically adapted then many African populations! Do you understand what this implies"? This was the reason why the ancient Egyptians were termed "Super Negroid" in earlier analysis of their limb proportions. This likely indicates that the Nilotic (the tallest, linky, darkest groups of people on Earth) was very prominent amongst the other black African ethnic groups who comprised the civilization during the early Dynastic periods.

Of course. So has the connection between Egypt and the Near East and the contrasts between the Egyptians and nearby African regions:, not to mention the disdain the Egyptians had for their African neighbors:

Again you demonstrate that you know nothing about ancient Egypt by trying to racialize the wars between it and it's chief rival Nubia. Not to mention that it's just an absurd argument. It's like saying the that the Germans must a have a different race from the French, Russian and British because of the millions of them that they killed. I'm quite sure that you aren't even aware that the 12 Dynasty rulers of Egypt who blocked Nubians from coming in were themselves Nubian by origin, but became Egyptian when they simply adopted Egyptian culture. Does sound like racial animosity to you?

Something that DOES sound like racial animosity is when the Nubians (various different tribes south of Egypt) banded together with the Egyptians to expel the Asiatic Hyksos (who actually reached out to the Nubians for support) from northern Egypt. That sounds like a "blood is thicker than water" type of deal to me.

but with much of the same variations of physical characteristics that one sees in modern Egypt...

The thing that the author doesn't specify about the continued characteristics in modern Egypt is that this continuation is basically exclusively with the southern and rural black Egyptians populations whom Robert Bauval was referencing in the interview that I posted a few pages back. He is not referencing the non black people of the urban northern areas.

Wenke, R. J., & Olszewski, D. (1990). Patterns in prehistory: humankind's first three million years. Oxford University Press.

That's his opinion based on his own subjective view points (likely laced with ignorance) on their stylized art. The artwork that I and Robert Bauval shows individuals who are pretty consistent with falling within the physical range of black Africans. If you doubt this then just check out pages one and two or I can post some more (I got sidetracked). None the less when it comes to the argument on artwork interpretation, consistent biological evidence generally agrees with view point.

 

[Asante]

1) We toss out most of the evidence and read our interpretations into what remains:

lol Do tell where have you witnessed this on my behave?

"In 1981 Diop confidently asserted that ‘Egyptians were Negroes, thick-lipped, kinky-haired and thin-legged’. Although it is certainly true that some surviving Egyptian mummies or depictions of ancient Egyptians fit this description, the fact is that most of both the former and the latter are anthropologically and visually quite different to Diop’s description."

Where is this quote from? As far as I've read Diop whose time frame goes from 1980's on down has been almost fully vindicated in his assertions. In fact here is what Kathryn Bard's Encyclopedia concluded on the matter in 96:

Two opposing theories for the origin of Dynastic Egyptians dominated scholarly debate over the last century: whether the ancient Egyptians were black Africans (historically referred to as Negroid) originating biologically and culturally in Saharo-Tropical Africa, or whether they originated as a Dynastic Race in the Mediterranean or western Asian regions (people historically categorized as White, or Caucasoid)....There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas...Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data. In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography. (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

So where is this contemporary agreed upon "refutation" of Diop and his argument? We know that the salty old racist bags back 1970's who were in UNESCO simply were not mentally nor emotionally capable of letting go of Morton's old false racist philosophy's on Egyptology. Even though they had no evidence nor presentation they rendered their baseless opinion (again no evidence or presentations) as true while having no choice but to also accept most of what Diop and Obenga have schooled them on.
​

2) Adopt a basic mistrust for mainstream contemporary anthropology

You don't believe that humans across all walks of life are capable of being sneaky/deceptive? Well look at Brace 93....This was the man incorrectly credited for disproving the black Egyptian theory. During the forefront of the "Black Athena" saga, C Loring Brace conducts a horribly and clearly deliberately flawed study on the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians:

Needless to say that no one to this date (20 years later) have built upon his conclusions of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians. In fact this study was actually refuted by his own 2005 study. None the less it did not stop other scholars such as Keita from criticizing his sneaky tactics. It's so funny because no other study has came to such outrageous conclusions and it all conveniently happened during a time of crisis in the consciously white academic world (the black Athena debates). If this 1993 study's findings were in fact valid then why wouldn't Kathryn Bards have noted any discreprencies in contemporary in her 1996 Encyclopedia or the 2001 edition of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt?

: "to assume, as many Afrocentrists appear to do, first that much conventional Egyptological thought is still infected by such racism, and second that the very existence of such prejudice in some way proves that,contrary to much of the visual and written evidence, ancient Egyptians were both black and African, seems a little unjustified."from Shaw's Ancient Egypt

That sounds a bit schizo on the part of Ian Shaw especially when he (and others) edited this book where it is blatantly stated that the ancient Egyptians were Africans in all ways culturally and black Africans physically:

"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons..."

"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization."

"The race and origins of the Ancient Egyptians have been a source of considerable debate. Scholars in the late and early 20th centuries rejected any considerations of the Egyptians as black Africans by defining the Egyptians either as non-African (i.e Near Easterners or Indo-Aryan), or as members of a separate brown (as opposed to a black) race, or as a mixture of lighter-skinned peoples with black Africans. In the later half of the 20th century, Afrocentric scholars have countered this Eurocentric and often racist perspective by characterizing the Egyptians as black and African....."

"Physical anthropologists are increasingly concluding that racial definitions are the culturally defined product of selective perception and should be replaced in biological terms by the study of populations and clines. Consequently, any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depend on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'blacks' while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 27-28 "

The ancient Egyptians were black Africans....Notice how throughout your entire response to my argument you never give your own argument. All you're doing is misinterpreting certain studies as some futile attempt to throw dirt on the already established road that I was on (already arrived at the destination), while never specifying your views. What did the ancient Egyptians look like based on the evidence that you've read and seen? Can give pictures of what you believed the ancient Egyptians looked, or can you reference specific subsets of contemporary populations whom you believe resemble them the most? This should be entertaining.

 

[outhouse]

The ancient Egyptians were black Africans.

Which is not substantiated by CREDIBLE research.

 

[Asante]

Which is not substantiated by CREDIBLE research.

From this statement I'm going to assume that you are an individual who is either selectively illiterate or one who cannot properly interpret research to form a sound conclusion on your own (a plethora of research presented has more than suggested this). By the way your definition of "credible research" is?

Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'blacks' while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 27-28 "

Oxford credible enough?

 

[Sees]

What is the goal or motive behind all this?

 

[outhouse]

What is the goal or motive behind all this?

OP wants to paint all ancient egyptians as black

 

[Ingledsva]

Where are the Forum Mods when you need them?

Posting this much material is against the LAW, and against forum rules.



*

 

[Asante]

OP wants to paint all ancient egyptians as black

Ancient Egypt was founded and maintained by a black Africans...This has been proven (check above). Why is it so hard for you and some others to accept this? You don't a have counter argument or opposing theory, so why are you continuing to oppose this fact? What's in it for you? You apparently have an emotional investment in believing a blatant centuries old lie, but why?