• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Black African Origins for the Ancient Egyptians

Asante

Member
Let's talk about the race of the inhabitants of the second most mentioned place in the Bible Kemet (ancient Egypt):

tuts%20family%202.jpg

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]^Amarna period pharaohs

dnatribes.jpg


[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Geographical analysis of the Amarna mummies was performed using their autosomal STR profiles based on 8 tested loci.Results are summarized in Table 1 and illustrated in Figure 1. Maps forindividual Amarna mummies are included in Figures 2-8 in the Appendix.

Discussion: Average MLI scores in Table 1 indicate the STR profiles of the Amarna mummies would be most frequent in present day populations of several African regions: including the Southern African (average MLI 326.94), African Great Lakes (average MLI 323.76), and Tropical West African (average MLI 83.74) regions.

These regional matches do not necessarily indicate an exclusively African ancestry for the
Amarna pharaonic family. However, results indicate these ancient individuals inherited some alleles that today are more frequent in populations of Africa than in other parts of the world (such as D18S51=19 and D21S11=34).
[/FONT]

link

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Three months ago another study was conducted on Ramses III and his son concluding that they were E1b1a carriers:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]
We amplified 16 Y chromosomal, short tandem repeats (AmpF\STR Yfiler PCR amplification kit; Applied Biosystems).........Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]This is the current distribution of that particular haplogroup.

Distribution_of_haplogroup_e1b1a_in_Rosa_2007.jpg


[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]The Dnatribes analysis of the results from the above [/FONT]study:

These results indicate that both Ramesses III and Unknown Man E (possibly his son Pentawer) shared an ancestral component with present day populations of Sub-Saharan Africa.[FONT=Verdana, Arial].[/FONT]A previous issue of DNA Tribes Digest identified African related ancestry for King Tut and other royal mummies from the Amarna Period. In this issue, results indicate that the later pharaoh Ramesses III also inherited alleles that are most frequent in present day populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. This provides additional, independent evidence of Sub-Saharan African ancestry (possibly among several ancestral components) for pharaonic families of ancient Egypt[FONT=Verdana, Arial]....[/FONT]In addition, these DNA match results in present day world regions might in part express population changes in Africa after the time of Ramesses III. In particular, DNA matches in present day populations of Southern Africa and the African Great Lakes might to some degree reflect genetic links with ancient populations (formerly living closer to New Kingdom Egypt) that have expanded southwards in the Nilotic and Bantu migrations of the past 3,000 years (see Figure 1)
picture-5-10.png


link

These recent genetic studies all indicate that the ancient Egyptians have a closer genetic relationship to modern populations across Sub Saharan Africa and particularly the Nilotic populations of the Great Lakes region of Africa. The strong cultural connection between the ancient Egyptians and the modern peoples of the Upper Nile/Great Lakes region has been noted by scholars for over a century now:

[youtube]3w1x8nVD4xs&[/youtube]
[youtube]uZKMzU207MM[/youtube]

The segment below details the continued cultural/religious traditions of the Nilotic descendants of the earliest ancient Egyptians:

[youtube]Z4nBK381bBg[/youtube]

Anthropological research consistently concludes that the earliest ancient Egyptians were black Africans who were most closely related to various types of black Africans seen throughout more southerly regions Africa today. The ancient Nile Valley populations were essentially bands of various different black African tribes (ancestors of the West African Wolof, Igbos, Yoruba, Bemeleke, Akan, Hausa, Ewe, Central African Congolese and Nilotic populations, South African Zulu populations ect) who retreated to the Nile Valley from the once fertile Sahara (see the documentary above).

On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007). The archaeological evidence points to this relationship as well. (Hassan, 1986) and (Hassan, 1988) noted similarities between Badarian pottery and the Neolithic Khartoum type, indicating an archaeological affinity among Badarians and Africans from more southern regions. Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990).

Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. -- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404.
Cont.

"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Jebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese."S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54

Cont.

"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Ku****es, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
As can be read in the last citation, the indigenous black African physical variation amongst the early ancient Egyptian populations was great indeed.
 
Last edited:

Asante

Member
Cont.

The latest archaeological evidence correlates soundly with what the anthropological and genetic evidence has proven:

Conclusion
To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor. What linked Ancient Egypt to the rest of the North African cultures is this strong tie with the Nubian pastoral nomadic lifestyle, the same pastoral background commonly shared by most of the ancient Saharan and modern sub-Saharan societies. Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.
link

Here is a summary by Cambridge scholars of the ancient Greek AND Roman physical descriptions of the ancient Egyptians:

"There are many links between ancient Egyptian and modern African culture, ranging from objects such as headrests to hairstyles such as the side lock, and this and other evidence support the idea that it was an African culture in addition to being geographically in Africa. For these reasons Egypt is seen by people of African descent as part of their cultural heritage and history. The concept of Egypt as part of Africa is not a new one. Some of the earliest travellers to Egypt came from the ancient cultures of Greece and Rome, including Greek philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, writers and poets who came to learn from the priests. To the Greeks and Romans, Egypt was an African country, and their artists depicted the Egyptians as Africans, with black skin and tightly curled hair, described by the Greek historian Herodotos in the fifth century BC as 'woolly'."
link

I must ask are people in Western society (particularly America) just "ignorant" about this abundant information about who these people were? Here are some recent popular yet completely fictitious representations of ancient Egyptians in pop culture:

[youtube]ny_G0nG8qJI[/youtube]

Below is a documentary on the "Scorpion King" (Menes/Narmer):

[youtube]t4lWOWrtLbI[/youtube]

You can see that he is shown in the National Geographic documentary as being a person that one would typically see across the Levant today, but in that documentary that tactically (yes I believe so) never show the ONLY facial sculpture of the first King Egypt..:

menes.jpg


Clearly a black man! None the less it appears as though the false impression that they want to let off is that these ancient Africans looked like this:

3134831.jpg


Here a pretty good youtube series on the issue that was done a few years ago:

[youtube]RxWL3TnisRg[/youtube]
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Clearly a black man! None the less it appears as though the false impression that they want to let off is that these ancient Africans looked like this:

3134831.jpg


Here a pretty good youtube series on the issue that was done a few years ago:

The Ancient Egyptians didn't look like Northern Europeans...that's for sure. However, during 1800-1950, there was a lot of misappropriation by European Egyptologists.....having a tendency to make every "great civilization" somehow related to Whites. There are numerous books that go into further detail, explaining how the misappropriation happened and why it happened, and expands on the racist as well as eugenics undertone of how and why it all occurred. But, the lady on the left could pass, while I doubt the gent on the right.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Here's something interesting:

"The 2001 Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt states that "Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study”, adding "Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as "blacks", while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans."[11] Frank M. Snowden asserts that "Egyptians, Greeks and Romans attached no special stigma to the colour of the skin and developed no hierarchical notions of race whereby highest and lowest positions in the social pyramid were based on color."
source
 
Last edited:

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I'm not going through all that was posted in the OP . . . wow!
I will say that I am pretty certain that we have traced mankind's origin to Ethiopia?
From there nomadic, hunter-gatherers spread out north as the Proto-Indoeuropean tribes, died out from an ice age or something (going my memory) and the surviving tribes/peoples were scattered all over and evolved into their geographical body.

So, we are all from Etheopia . . . yeah, that's it!
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3593078 said:
The Ancient Egyptians didn't look like Northern Europeans...that's for sure. However, during 1800-1950, there was a lot of misappropriation by European Egyptologists.....having a tendency to make every "great civilization" somehow related to Whites. There are numerous books that go into further detail, explaining how the misappropriation happened and why it happened, and expands on the racist as well as eugenics undertone of how and why it all occurred. But, the lady on the left could pass, while I doubt the gent on the right.

While I agree that there has been much cultural misappropriation, the poster aims at discussing skin color, and charging that current Egyptians and middle easterners were "blacker" than the current inhabitants. And there is no possibility that any mixing occurred with any lighter skinned people before Jesus. It would be very much like saying the only real Indiana are the darker skinned Indians. And it is similar thinking which led to racist notions like Aryan invasion theory.
 

Asante

Member
Here are a few random cultural, religious, and linguistic similarities that between the ancient Egyptians and their descendants scattered throughout tropical Africa:

zv511e9054.jpg

cr511eaed6.jpg

lz5128877c.jpg

el512887bd.jpg

so51288815.jpg


In Togo,Benin and Nigeria, the Kutito(among Gbe speaking people) and Egungun (among Yoruba speaking people) are masked dancing ancestors returning to earth to help and punish living people. Jean Charles Coovi Gomez pointed out that this ceremony was exactly the same as what we know of Kemetic "raising the Djed Pillar Ceremony".Egungun ,the Yoruba name of the ceremony means "bone, skeleton". In Kmt, the Djed pillar was considered as the backbone of the neter Ausar. There is ample evidence for mummification in traditional Africa. Félix Dubois reported it among Songhoi people, M.Delafosse among Baule(Akan) people of Ivory Coast, A.M.L Desplagnes among the Dogon and Mossi, J.C.C.Gomez among the Yoruba.
sq51288aca.jpg

lt51288af9.jpg

qz51288bc2.jpg
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
..................And there is no possibility that any mixing occurred with any lighter skinned people before Jesus.

Exactly. That wouldn't make sense because ethno-tribal mixing did happen.

It would be very much like saying the only real Indiana are the darker skinned Indians. And it is similar thinking which led to racist notions like Aryan invasion theory.

You didn't have to go that far.
 

Asante

Member
On the far left, is an ancient Egyptian "paddle" doll, courtesy of the British Museum; in the middle, we have Ashanti examples of the fertility doll, and third image is yet another example of fertility dolls common amongst the Akan.

Fertility dolls are a fairly common theme in Africa, from the Akan speaking groups of Ghana to the Donguena, Evale, Hakawama, Himba, Humbe, Kwanyama, Mukubal, Mwila, Ndimba, Ngambwe, Ovambo and Zemba people of the semi-desert areas of Angola for example, and it appear that the ancient Egyptians were no different in this aspect.
eq51288f95.gif

kg51289010.gif


More Links this time in the form of serekhs in both cases by an object or an animal and while the Kemetic symbols developed into a full writing system where the name could be read,the Beninese kings used theirs as a memory device.

at51291235.jpg


Prince Gagni Xesu (1620) is symbolised by a bird and a drum.
lu512915dc.jpg


Dyn 0 Kemet King Scorpion.

xz51291298.jpg


King Hwegbeadja (1645–1680) is represented by a fish and a fyke net.
xc51291706.jpg


medium.jpg


The Nok culture of northern Nigeria, a civilization that existed from approximately 500 B.C. to about 500 A.D., is principally known for its terracotta figures. Relatively little is known about the purpose of these figures or the civilization that created such extraordinary sculptural representations of its people. A few of the remarkable characteristics that distinguish Nok pieces from terracottas of later cultures in Nigeria include the triangular, pierced eyes; the elaborate coiffure and beard; and the placement of the ears. This work depicts a person of high status wearing elaborate beaded jewelry, and with a crooked baton on his right arm and a hinged flail on the left. These are symbols of authority also found in ancient Egyptian depictions of the Pharaohs and the god Osiris. The Nok culture existed during the late Pharonic period and intra-African trading could have spread Egyptian influences into many other parts of Africa.

Minneapolis Institute of Art
 

Asante

Member
Old Kingdom Pharaohs:

Sanakhte.jpg

Egypt_Djoser.jpg

Huni.jpg

Menkaure.jpg

Egypt_Khufu.jpg

(He was a considered by his subjects to be a "miserable" king but he is remembered for his great pyramid)

image005.jpg

Sahure.jpg

Niuserre.jpg


Here are some words on the misinterpretations of ancient Egypt it's culture and people by one of her Akan (West African) descendants:

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] Darkwah states that ancient Egypt was geographically in Africa and that so called European experts do not know the Ancient Egyptian story because they are not familiar with African tribal names. They do not have the linguistic and cultural backgrounds to identify Egyptian names and have simply transposed the African names of people and places in Ancient Egyptian history into European languages to make it possible for them to claim expertise. Darkwah traces the ancient past of African tribes from the Middle East through Ancient Egypt to inner Africa. He reveals the African tribe that historians gave the fictitious names the Sumerians, Akkadians, and the African Tribes that were the Ancient Egyptians.

The indigenous African tribal name of the most popular Ancient Egyptian king the west was Tutu Ankoma—not Tutankhamun. Not only do we know the indigenous African tribal name of this Ancient Egyptian king, but we also know where the modern dynasty of his ancient dynasty is today. We know in Africa that the Ancient Egyptian king who built the middle pyramid in Giza was called Akufu and not Khufu as the experts have told us. We also know that his two sons completed the procession of pyramids and placed a lion in the front of the procession. These sons were Dade Afre and not Djedefra as the experts transposed this name; and his brother was Ochere Afre and not Chephren as the experts have told us. The modern dynasty of these ancient kings is the Akuapem Dynasty that can be found today in the Eastern Region of Ghana. Conservatives, liberals, and all in between can go to check these people out and verify the royal names among these people.

The Ancient Egyptians were Black people and their modern descendants are alive and well in Africa. Real evidence of the modern descendants of the Ancient Egyptians in the tribes of Africa and the language and culture these people left behind in Ancient Egypt is the most powerful evidence there is about the Black racial origin of the Ancient Egyptians.

In the 1960's and 1970's there were Jewish scholars who were secretly traveling around Africa researching African Tribes to find out from which tribe they belonged. They studied the Akan Religion of the Asante people to find out the similarities between Judaism and Christianity. The word Israel was derived from an African Tribal meaning. Most "Jewish" people still carry their African Tribal names of origin.

The Sinai peninsula is clearly in Africa and is where the Israelites claim to receive their oral and written law. Geologically speaking all of the adjacent Arabian peninsula clear up to Syria is part of the African continent. The Great Rift Valley extends from Mozambique to Syria. The continental drift of tectonics shows the Arabian plate breaking off from the continent and colliding into the Asian plate to create the mountain ranges of Turkey and Armenia (University of Moscow).
[/FONT]
 

Asante

Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3593078 said:
But, the lady on the left could pass, while I doubt the gent on the right.

There is no doubt that towards the end of Dynastic times that the racial mixture in ancient Egypt was apparent, but none the less it was also apparent (to the Greek and Romans) that the base population of ancient Egypt was in fact black Africans. The Greeks also knew through their communications with the "Aethiopians" (Sudanese Nubians and other black Africans) that the ancient Egyptians started off as a "colony" of "Aethiopia (Nubia). This oral tradition correlates with the realatively recent findings of Ta-Seti (Sudanese Nubia which is the oldest civilization Earth) that original ancient Egyptians descent from a northward migration of a Sudanese population (named A-Group Nubians).

From that population the whitish looking lady in that picture who not have been in place at all with those black folks.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Asante . . . cool out with all the pics and links and videos, you're not proving your point, but rather you're pushing people away from it because there's too much input at once.

Make a point . . . discuss . . . move from there.
 

Asante

Member
While I agree that there has been much cultural misappropriation, the poster aims at discussing skin color, and charging that current Egyptians and middle easterners were "blacker" than the current inhabitants. And there is no possibility that any mixing occurred with any lighter skinned people before Jesus.

:facepalm:

You are completely wrong my brother:

"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."

-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

If there was no race mixing in Egypt prior to the times of Jesus (a statement which is very telling about your level of knowledge of ancient history) then how the Egyptians go from grouping with black Africans in the early period to generally having a lack of affinity with their black African ancestors during the Late periods and instead with Mediterranean populations? Greeks and Roman admixture doesn't count or something?

The picture below is showing the phenotypes of people in the modern northern Egyptian mega city of Cairo. Now what what does genetic evidence (and anthropology above) say about their relationship with the original ancient Egyptians:

modernegyptiansunrepres.jpg


declineofegyptiancopts.jpg



It would be very much like saying the only real Indiana are the darker skinned Indians.

So basically you're saying that you don't want to acknowledge the validity of the research, because of what it might imply socio-politically?
 

Asante

Member
Asante . . . cool out with all the pics and links and videos, you're not proving your point, but rather you're pushing people away from it because there's too much input at once.

Make a point . . . discuss . . . move from there.

lol I mean to me it sounds like you're saying,

"Whoa there slow down with your presentation of irrefutable evidence! Your pictures coupled with your peer reviewed scientific evidence are making it painfully obvious that you're correct, and that is a problem because it leaves little to no room for petty objections to your point."

If that's not what you're saying then my apologies, but I'm just going off of past experience with discussing these types of subjects.
 

Asante

Member
I'm not going through all that was posted in the OP . . . wow!

It should take no more than 10-15 minutes to read through and properly interpret what these findings indicate. It's knowledge, why run from knowledge.

So, we are all from Etheopia . . . yeah, that's it!

This statement and that before it has little to nothing to with the topic at hand which is within the last 5,000 years (not 70,000 ya when Africans first successfully began to settle across the world).
 

Asante

Member
But what is the point of all this anyway?.

Why come into a thread and ask what is the point of the OP (who clearly feels that there is a purpose fro this thread) revealing this information (knowledge) that you likely previously did not know? A "thank you" would have been better.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
Why come into a thread and ask what is the point of the OP (who clearly feels that there is a purpose fro this thread) revealing this information (knowledge) that you likely previously did not know? A "thank you" would have been better.

Your tact could use some work, if you wish to be productive.
 
Top