Is FGM really cultural?

[JoStories]

I think MNS might have blocked me a while ago. He hasn't replied to me in a long time.

But my mother spent years working in development programs for women in Africa and the Middle East, and has a 100% negative view of this practice.

Myself as well Kirran. I can't imagine a more heinous act inflicted on female children and they are children. All those who do this should be put in prison forever.

 

[JoStories]

I think MNS might have blocked me a while ago. He hasn't replied to me in a long time.

But my mother spent years working in development programs for women in Africa and the Middle East, and has a 100% negative view of this practice.

And btw Kirran, thanks for making the font size larger, For people who are,blind, it certainly helps.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

There is PLENTY in terms of comprehensive family life, for those who choose to live in them.

No there isn't. I live in the West, and have lived in Indonesia, what you say is not true.

In any case, the article referenced talked about a demand for female circumcision of the population, and the government of indonesia outlawing it. It broadly is the people themselves who choose to have it, although of course a baby cannot decide about it.

And remember, circumcision may also protect against aids, and other diseases, because of decreasing sex. You ought to accept the consequences of decisions, that when you are decreasing circumcision, the actual effect would be that you increase aids. Look at reality, and not just look at your intentions. But of course circumcision may also increase AIDS. Either way it is a decision you would want to be in the hands of the people themselves.

 

[Kirran]

No there isn't. I live in the West, and have lived in Indonesia, what you say is not true.

And I am from a Western family. What you say is not true.

 

[Riverwolf]

No there isn't. I live in the West, and have lived in Indonesia, what you say is not true.

I, too, live in the West. Pretty much as West as you can get in the West, in fact: California, not far from San Francisco.

What you say is not reflective of what I've seen firsthand.

In any case, the article referenced talked about a demand for female circumcision of the population, and the government of indonesia outlawing it. It broadly is the people themselves who choose to have it, although of course a baby cannot decide about it.

And therefore it should not happen to her.

If an adult woman, without pressure from her peers, fears of being disowned, or without the influence of drugs/alcohol (which shouldn't be a problem for Muslims anyway), chooses to get circumcised, then it's fine. Her body, her rules. But it should be her choice, and hers alone, and no one else's, not even her family's.

And remember, circumcision may also protect against aids, and other diseases, because of decreasing sex.

There's other ways to protect against STIs such as HIV. Proper sex education, for one.

You ought to accept the consequences of decisions, that when you are decreasing circumcision, the actual effect would be that you increase aids. Look at reality, and not just look at your intentions.

You first.

I don't think you know what AIDS is, or its causes. AIDS, first of all, is the condition that results in infection by HIV. HIV can be transmitted through bodily fluids, such as those excreted by the sex organs, but also blood. You can get infected if an infected person's blood gets into yours. Effective prevention doesn't have to involve circumcision at all. Education is the best preventative method.

But of course circumcision may also increase AIDS. Either way it is a decision you would want to be in the hands of the people themselves.

Agreed. Specifically, the women. They should not be circumcised while infants, or any younger than what would be considered a legal and informed adult in a given culture. As adults, if they wish to, that's their choice.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I, too, live in the West. Pretty much as West as you can get in the West, in fact: California, not far from San Francisco.

What you say is not reflective of what I've seen firsthand.

It's nonsense, people in the USA do not know the grandmother of the wife of their uncle. The number of close friends people have in the USA went from 3 to 2 on average in the last few decades or something. Generally speaking social sophistication is much larger in these countries, they actually have something worthwile to preserve.

Agreed. Specifically, the women. They should not be circumcised while infants, or any younger than what would be considered a legal and informed adult in a given culture. As adults, if they wish to, that's their choice.

I think that parents should be able to decide that as well. There are studies which say circumcision increasese AIDS and studies which say it decreases AIDS. I believe you haven't thought through AIDS, nor thought through female circumcision, or parenting, and you are just pontificating based on your prejudices.

 

[Riverwolf]

It's nonsense, people in the USA do not know the grandmother of the wife of their uncle.

Oh, that's your standard of measurement? Knowledge of distantly extended family?

It would seem that it's a matter of perspective. I count a comprehensive family life as the life of many people living in the same household.

The number of close friends people have in the USA went from 3 to 2 on average in the last few decades or something.

Source?

And what defines "close"?

Generally speaking social sophistication is much larger in these countries, they actually have something worthwile to preserve.

Who's judging what's "worthwhile", or what constitutes "social sophistication"?

I think that parents should be able to decide that as well.

And I firmly disagree. Parents don't own their children.

There are studies which say circumcision increasese AIDS and studies which say it decreases AIDS.

And I say that it's only tangentially related to HIV infection, hence the disparity you notice.

I believe you haven't thought through AIDS,

Wrong.

nor thought through female circumcision,

I've given it as much thought as it deserves.

or parenting,

Again wrong.

and you are just pontificating based on your prejudices.

Of course I am. So are you.

...though "pontificating"? Kind of a strange choice of words. I'm arguing.

Also, notice something? When I suspected you didn't know much about AIDS, I briefly explained what it was. If you did know what it was, fine. If you didn't, now you should know.

I also never once stated that you haven't thought through these things. Clearly, you have. Two people can think through the exact same topic, for the exact same amount of time, and still come to radically different conclusions based on several factors.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It is a way to surpress sexual pleasure, and bring other values such as marriage more to the fore.

It supresses sexual pleasure overall, including within a marriage. It also mutilates a woman's reproductive organs where she is impacted detrimentally in ways that have nothing to do with sex. The ease in urination and in menstruation are severely compromised. And when a woman who has been cut is able to survive the daily compromises to her health and well-being manage to not only make it through intercourse without bleeding too much, and gets pregnant...she has a much higher risk of death during labor and delivery from hemorrhaging.

The values you fight for are not worth this kind of risk and suffering from women.

It simply works as far as I can tell. The lives of women become less dominated by seeking sexual pleasure and guided more towards other things such as marriage, friendship and family.

What choice do they have? They can be killed or exiled for being branded as whores in their communities, or they can have a smaller risk of being killed from maternal mortality from FGM. To say that this is evidence of "working" is devaluing women down to second-class humanity where their worth is determined by sexually pure chattel.

It is popular in islam because the love in marriage, friendship and family is judged meaningful in Islam while being stoned high from sexual pleasure isn't thought to be of much worth in the final judgement. Similarly being stoned high on canabis is also not considered to be a very meanigful feeling.

I'd rather stick my hand in a blender than even entertain the thought of attempting this brand of ethics. I'm much much happier and healthier owning and protecting my sexuality than pandering to archaic gender roles and barbaric practices. Patriarchal deities and institutions have a tendency to see people with a functioning uterus as under their ownership and subject to their whims.

Let's have the Goddess Kali and women in charge in such cultures decide if/when men have their testicles removed or have a vasectomy for sexual suppression or population control. Do that, or be shamed, exiled, beaten, or murdered by groups of women with baseball bats if you don't like what they want. Doesn't sound good, does it? Think about why that is.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

What choice do they have? They can be killed or exiled for being branded as whores in their communities, or they can have a smaller risk of being killed from maternal mortality from FGM. To say that this is evidence of "working" is devaluing women down to second-class humanity where their worth is determined by sexually pure chattel.

That is not true. Broadly speaking there is demand for female circumcision among people. It is actually the Indonesian government which outlawed it. It is of course you yourself who do not listen to what people want, since you presume to know as fact that it is evil.

The rest of your statement are likewise exaggerated and one sided. There is a pressure for women to become whores in such developing countries with lots of uprooted people requesting sexual services. That is not about being branded as whores, it is about actually becoming whores.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

They filmed a tribe in Africa whose women were circumcized, and they looked positively alike English upper class in the way they behaved. A recognizeable difference from the non circumcized women also shown, oozing sex appeal.

Um, the way the english upper class 'behave?' Huh?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The lives of women become less dominated by seeking sexual pleasure and guided more towards other things such as marriage, friendship and family.

To match, men could have themselves castrated after having however many children they wanted. Modern medicine could probably make it painless, and they could then ignore large tracts of teaching that deal with sexual immorality.

being stoned high from sexual pleasure isn't thought to be of much worth in the final judgement.

Actually, the challenge is that men have to be truly adept in order to be able to give them that height. If that's the kind of thing they like, perhaps it can be comparable to climbing a mountain with a final judgement involved, making it into something a bit trickier than one thinks.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That is not true. Broadly speaking there is demand for female circumcision among people. It is actually the Indonesian government which outlawed it. It is of course you yourself who do not listen to what people want, since you presume to know as fact that it is evil.

The rest of your statement are likewise exaggerated and one sided. There is a pressure for women to become whores in such developing countries with lots of uprooted people requesting sexual services. That is not about being branded as whores, it is about actually becoming whores.

Men are much bigger whores than women, on average. We're the promiscuous, slutty sex in general. So we should have our penises cut off or wear torturous chastity devices.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That is not true. Broadly speaking there is demand for female circumcision among people. It is actually the Indonesian government which outlawed it. It is of course you yourself who do not listen to what people want, since you presume to know as fact that it is evil.

Horse hockey. There is a demand among people because they have been culturally conditioned to believe that female sexual purity is representative of the health of a family. And one of the ways they have been conditioned to believe that is by seeing a sewn up vagina with no clitoral hood and/or clitoral tip is evidence of an honorable woman.

The risks of maternal mortality is greatest among cultures that make it a habit to cut women's reproductive organs up...and that includes the rise in c-sections in our country due to scheduled repeated c-sections here from multiple births from a woman in her lifetime.

I'd prefer to reduce the risks, but that would mean we need to face some really super ugly truths of how women's sexuality and reproductive health and processes may or may not be her own.

The rest of your statement are likewise exaggerated and one sided. There is a pressure for women to become whores in such developing countries with lots of uprooted people requesting sexual services. That is not about being branded as whores, it is about actually becoming whores.

You are proving my point. There is pressure across cultures for women to adhere to whatever sexual role they must play for patriarchal sensibilities and their bodies are being compromised directly as a result. Show some skin because men like it. Cut your clitoris off because men like it. Smile when men say hi to you because men like it. Turn around and show off what you're wearing because men like it. Have breast implants put in because men like it. Starve your body of sufficient calorie intake, get thin and slightly emaciated, because men like it. Slice off your inner labia and have your vaginal opening sewn up - and just get through the 30 days you must tie your legs together as you heal and be quarantined as a girl in recovery because men like it.

Whether a female is expected to act like a whore or act like the virgin Mary, it's for the right to stay alive for another day at the decision of the man in charge. And women are complicit in this cultural charade because THEY want to stay alive for another day at the decision of the man in charge.

ETA: This is why I want to smash patriarchy into little itty bitty pieces. Not because of any ego thing. But because women and girls distinctly are being mutiliated and dying en masse from specific and gender-directed violence.

 

[JoStories]

I, too, live in the West. Pretty much as West as you can get in the West, in fact: California, not far from San Francisco.

What you say is not reflective of what I've seen firsthand.



And therefore it should not happen to her.

If an adult woman, without pressure from her peers, fears of being disowned, or without the influence of drugs/alcohol (which shouldn't be a problem for Muslims anyway), chooses to get circumcised, then it's fine. Her body, her rules. But it should be her choice, and hers alone, and no one else's, not even her family's.



There's other ways to protect against STIs such as HIV. Proper sex education, for one.



You first.

I don't think you know what AIDS is, or its causes. AIDS, first of all, is the condition that results in infection by HIV. HIV can be transmitted through bodily fluids, such as those excreted by the sex organs, but also blood. You can get infected if an infected person's blood gets into yours. Effective prevention doesn't have to involve circumcision at all. Education is the best preventative method.



Agreed. Specifically, the women. They should not be circumcised while infants, or any younger than what would be considered a legal and informed adult in a given culture. As adults, if they wish to, that's their choice.

I love San Francisco river. I lived in San Jose, walnut creek, and Santa Cruz as well as the city itself, slightly southwest out by the zoo. It's one of my all time favorite places in the world. Nothing better than a long lazy drive up the PCH to bodega bay.

 

[JoStories]

It's nonsense, people in the USA do not know the grandmother of the wife of their uncle. The number of close friends people have in the USA went from 3 to 2 on average in the last few decades or something. Generally speaking social sophistication is much larger in these countries, they actually have something worthwile to preserve.



I think that parents should be able to decide that as well. There are studies which say circumcision increasese AIDS and studies which say it decreases AIDS. I believe you haven't thought through AIDS, nor thought through female circumcision, or parenting, and you are just pontificating based on your prejudices.

Bul merde. I am Native American and none of my relatives go to nursing homes. We are tribal and doing that is considered seriously wrong. We know each and every one of our family members. Do you have medical knowledge or are you speaking from religious ignorance? Or perhaps you are speaking from your own prejudices. I know one thing. Anyone like you who came within ten miles of my children would get an arse laod of buck shot. It won't kill you but you'll think twice about sitting down for a long while. Hypothetically speaking of course.

 

[Augustus]

I think that parents should be able to decide that as well. There are studies which say circumcision increasese AIDS and studies which say it decreases AIDS. I believe you haven't thought through AIDS, nor thought through female circumcision, or parenting, and you are just pontificating based on your prejudices.

Such a horrendous prejudice the idea that mutilating a child causing excruciating pain and psychological scarring, while denying them their future right to have a fulfilling sex life might in some way be considered unacceptable behaviour.

Basically, you are saying that if they were uncircumcised, your mother, sisters, daughters would likely be libidinous sluts with no family values, whoring themselves left, right and centre and getting themselves riddled with AIDS were it not for the kindly and well intentioned butchering of their genitals based on the 2000 year old logic of tribal and honour based fiercely patriarchal societies.

"Daddy, why did you let the doctor cut me down there? It hurts so much." "Now, now my little princess, it's for your own good. You are a filthy whore by nature with no morals or self control and it was just a matter of time before you got AIDS and multi-drug resistant gonorrhoea. Now you are clean and pure and can focus your energies on washing clothes, cooking food and satisfying your husband's sexual urges while getting no pleasure yourself. Just the way God intended." "Oh daddy, you are the best, I love you." "Yes princess, you are lucky I care about you much more than those Western Daddies do. Sleep now, I've got to go and protest about people selling condoms in mini-markets and teaching sex education in schools as this increases promiscuity and AIDS also."

 

[Riverwolf]

I love San Francisco river. I lived in San Jose, walnut creek, and Santa Cruz as well as the city itself, slightly southwest out by the zoo. It's one of my all time favorite places in the world. Nothing better than a long lazy drive up the PCH to bodega bay.

I hate the Big City. ^_^

By which I mean, I hate getting around in it, because I hate large crowds and rapid unpredictability. I LOVE the stuff that's actually at the end of the journey.

 

[Riverwolf]

Bul merde. I am Native American and none of my relatives go to nursing homes. We are tribal and doing that is considered seriously wrong. We know each and every one of our family members.

I consider nursing homes seriously wrong, as well. I'm not Native American, but frankly, I don't need to be to recognize this one. I've seen the insides of such homes, and they're not happy.

Better to die out in the woods to a bear than to slowly rot while alive.

I don't know my extended family very well, but that's largely because my mom's side of the family is LOUD, and I have hypersensitive hearing. So... having family over, or going to wherever they were, meant excruciating pain and stress. As a result, I tended to hide myself away. I wish this weren't the case, but it is.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

based on the 2000 year old logic of tribal and honour based fiercely patriarchal societies.

I think it's older than that. Certainly Jews and Christians don't practice FGM, so didn't come from the overall Abrahamic tradition.

 

[JoStories]

I consider nursing homes seriously wrong, as well. I'm not Native American, but frankly, I don't need to be to recognize this one. I've seen the insides of such homes, and they're not happy.

Better to die out in the woods to a bear than to slowly rot while alive.

I don't know my extended family very well, but that's largely because my mom's side of the family is LOUD, and I have hypersensitive hearing. So... having family over, or going to wherever they were, meant excruciating pain and stress. As a result, I tended to hide myself away. I wish this weren't the case, but it is.

River, I'm sorry if you thought I meant only my people are embracing this mindset. More and more are doing same, which, IMO, is awesome. I started my nursing career when I was 16 in a nursing home kitchen. I have seen some that are not terrible and I have seen some that still give me nightmares. I agree with you about not wasting away in such a place. Which is why ALL of my family have DNR/DNI orders. They have heard my stories of these nightmares and never want to experience that. One can hope that more and more will return to the idea of family being family in the literal sense and take care of their own.
And I am sorry you don't know your people very well. But if you have the kind of hearing and they are loud, I can't imagine how frustrating that can be.