You're going to Heaven, like it or not!

[Squirt]

Hey, Sojourner! :shout This one's for you.

You know that while I do not take a universalist perspective to who will end up in Heaven, my beliefs are that the vast, vast majority of mankind will go there eventually. I would include in this group the worst of the worst, the most depraved individuals the world has ever known. Now I don't believe that their ultimate reward will be the same as that which will be given to those who loved God and their fellow men, who were faithful to Jesus Christ (once they had the opportunity to accept Him), but even so, Heaven for them will still be heir to a glory which "surpasses all understanding."

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him. You may say that there won't be any of these people, that once we stand in God's presence, the pull of His love will be so great that no one will be able to resist it. If that would be your initial response, please stop to consider Lucifer. He was well-acquainted with God. He'd felt God's great love and knew Jesus Christ. And yet, look at the choice he made. One third of the host of heaven sided with him. It is altogether possible that there are some who, if given the choice, would actually choose not to spend eternity in God's presence. How does your theology handle their situation?

(All comments welcome. I'm just mostly curious about Sojourner's.)

 

[Ðanisty]

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him. You may say that there won't be any of these people, that once we stand in God's presence, the pull of His love will be so great that no one will be able to resist it. If that would be your initial response, please stop to consider Lucifer. He was well-acquainted with God. He'd felt God's great love and knew Jesus Christ. And yet, look at the choice he made. One third of the host of heaven sided with him. It is altogether possible that there are some who, if given the choice, would actually choose not to spend eternity in God's presence. How does your theology handle their situation?

My theology is sort of based on that. I don't want to go to heaven or be in God's presence. I choose to go with Lucifer. I handle it quite well.

 

[Squirt]

My theology is sort of based on that. I don't want to go to heaven or be in God's presence. I choose to go with Lucifer. I handle it quite well.

Well, it will be especially interesting to know what Sojourner has to say about you! (I kind of hope you change your mind at some point. I'd really kind of like to get to know you, and I'd much prefer that it be in Heaven!)

 

[dawny0826]

My theology is sort of based on that. I don't want to go to heaven or be in God's presence. I choose to go with Lucifer. I handle it quite well.

Danisty, this is off topic and Squirt...I'll post this elsewhere if you want...

Just out of curiousity...since you don't have the desire to go to heaven...what do you think you're afterlife with Lucifer will be like? Do you believe in hell? Just wondering.

And Squirt...to kind of post on topic...

I believe with much of what you've posted...with the exception that I don't believe that we have a second chance after death. I believe that there is a very real hell to avoid and that unfortunately, many will be going.

I don't know if I asked this or not...and I will take the question to another thread...if I'm derailing anything here...but do the LDS believe in hell?

If not...what do you make of scripture which references "hell fire" and being "cast" down?

 

[Ziddy]

To be perfectly honest, the rules to get "into heaven" are extreme.
Correct me if I'm wrong
Examples: You can't have sex unless the only reason is to have a child.

Now, really folks, you can't expect a vast majority of mankind to be going to heaven if having sex is going to get you a ticket to hell.

If you miss one Sunday mass, and are not sorry for it, you go to hell.

Saying "God damn it" gives you a one-way-ticket going down.

 

[dawny0826]

To be perfectly honest, the rules to get "into heaven" are extreme.
Correct me if I'm wrong
Examples: You can't have sex unless the only reason is to have a child.

Now, really folks, you can't expect a vast majority of mankind to be going to heaven if having sex is going to get you a ticket to hell.

If you miss one Sunday mass, and are not sorry for it, you go to hell.

Saying "God damn it" gives you a one-way-ticket going down.

Where are you going with all this?

 

[Judgement Day]

(All comments welcome. I'm just mostly curious about Sojourner's.)

Does that mean my comments too?

Hey, Sojourner! :shout This one's for you.

You know that while I do not take a universalist perspective to who will end up in Heaven, my beliefs are that the vast, vast majority of mankind will go there eventually. I would include in this group the worst of the worst, the most depraved individuals the world has ever known. Now I don't believe that their ultimate reward will be the same as that which will be given to those who loved God and their fellow men, who were faithful to Jesus Christ (once they had the opportunity to accept Him), but even so, Heaven for them will still be heir to a glory which "surpasses all understanding."

I agree that most of humans will go to heaven:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 575:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection), 'O Adam!' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik wa Sa'daik! ' Then a loud Voice will be heard (Saying) 'Allah Commands you to take out the mission of the Hell Fire from your offspring.' " (Sahih Bukhari)

God's mercy is UNLIMITED! God forgives whomever He wants: Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists etc. On which degree of heaven they will occupy, is detemined by their effort in finding the truth. Not all people are able to find the truth, even though they have spent huge amount of time searching. Effort matters! Ignorance has no excuse. But the responsibility of their deeds still needs to be taken into action to fulfill the concept of justice among humans, not all will go straightaway to heaven, which I know is quite different from the point of view of Christianity.

 

[sojourner]

Hey, Sojourner! :shout This one's for you.

You know that while I do not take a universalist perspective to who will end up in Heaven, my beliefs are that the vast, vast majority of mankind will go there eventually. I would include in this group the worst of the worst, the most depraved individuals the world has ever known. Now I don't believe that their ultimate reward will be the same as that which will be given to those who loved God and their fellow men, who were faithful to Jesus Christ (once they had the opportunity to accept Him), but even so, Heaven for them will still be heir to a glory which "surpasses all understanding."

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him. You may say that there won't be any of these people, that once we stand in God's presence, the pull of His love will be so great that no one will be able to resist it. If that would be your initial response, please stop to consider Lucifer. He was well-acquainted with God. He'd felt God's great love and knew Jesus Christ. And yet, look at the choice he made. One third of the host of heaven sided with him. It is altogether possible that there are some who, if given the choice, would actually choose not to spend eternity in God's presence. How does your theology handle their situation?

(All comments welcome. I'm just mostly curious about Sojourner's.)

We always seem to champion human free will over God's intentions. While we can look at the very real examples of human resistance to God's grace and become daunted by them, if, in fact, what you claim is true: That our will is more important and greater than God's will for us, then we must conclude that God is ultimately powerless against death. Death always has the last word over God's will.

Picture, if you will, a scene of the holocaust -- thousands of God's beloved people being run through the gas chambers, with God standing helplessly off to the side, powerless to save them.

I just don't think it's going to be that way. God cannot be omnipotent and not have the power to ultimately save us against our will. God's intentions take priority over human free will.

Remember, Satan may have chosen to leave heaven with his minions, but it ain't over yet! (I don't believe in a personality called Satan, but just to play with your example) One day, God will triumph over even the will of Satan, and bring him back into the family.

I like to remember the kind words of God in Hosea (11:8-9), when God decides to love God's ungrateful, rebellious children: "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboiim? My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused. I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man -- the Holy one among you. I will not come in wrath."

 

[sojourner]

Well, it will be especially interesting to know what Sojourner has to say about you! (I kind of hope you change your mind at some point. I'd really kind of like to get to know you, and I'd much prefer that it be in Heaven!)

God respects our "right" to rebel...but one day, God will get God's way, because God's love is far, far greater than our resistance.

 

[Buttons*]

I dont really concern myself too much with the afterlife. Why should we be living to die? I think we should live to live, and if its in our hearts, do good things along the way and expect nothing in return.

If i'm automatically going to heaven, cool!
If i'm going to hell, so be it!
If i'm just going to dissapear when my brain dies, oh well!
If i'm going to be reincarnated, maybe i'll do better next time!

 

[dawny0826]

One day, God will triumph over even the will of Satan, and bring him back into the family.

I don't mean ask them to flame you...but I'm really curious...

How do you reconcile this belief with biblical scripture which states that Satan will be destroyed?

 

[Ðanisty]

Well, it will be especially interesting to know what Sojourner has to say about you! (I kind of hope you change your mind at some point. I'd really kind of like to get to know you, and I'd much prefer that it be in Heaven!)

I'd like to get to know you too. Why wait until we die? I can get to know you right now.

Just out of curiousity...since you don't have the desire to go to heaven...what do you think you're afterlife with Lucifer will be like? Do you believe in hell? Just wondering.

First of all, I believe hell is primarily Satan's domain and I don't believe that Satan and Lucifer are the same. I believe that Earth is Lucifer's domain...the place of experience. I can't say for certain what an afterlife would be like. I don't really think about it much. I don't think taking Lucifer's side is going to be an easy ride, but that's not what I'm looking for anyway. In some ways, I'm no different than Christians. I simply have faith. I have faith and trust in Lucifer. Whatever he needs from me in the afterlife, I'll do it for him. That's what comrades do.

As far as hell goes, I don't think it's anything like the bible describes to be honest with you. Hell is Satan's domain and I don't believe for a second that he's going to be punishing enemies of God. If he's punishing anyone in hell, it will be his own enemies.

God respects our "right" to rebel...but one day, God will get God's way, because God's love is far, far greater than our resistance.

He'll have to destroy my soul himself. If I get sent to heaven, I'm working as a double-agent. You can think whatever you want of me, but I my loyalties are with Lucifer and my love for him can overcome anything. Death before dishonor.

 

[Squirt]

And Squirt...to kind of post on topic...

I believe with much of what you've posted...with the exception that I don't believe that we have a second chance after death. I believe that there is a very real hell to avoid and that unfortunately, many will be going.

I don't know if I asked this or not...and I will take the question to another thread...if I'm derailing anything here...but do the LDS believe in hell?

If not...what do you make of scripture which references "hell fire" and being "cast" down?

Yes, we believe in Hell. We sometimes refer to it as "Outer Darkness." It is a place devoid of any of God's glory. To the best of my knowledge, the LDS belief about Hell is that it will be a place of eternal torment for those who are sent there. I would say that we don't believe in a literal "lake of fire" but of a place of spiritual anguish.

Basically there are two groups of people whom we believe will end up there -- Lucifer and the third of the host of Heaven who were cast out with him and those who committed the "unpardonable sin," i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. But, these (those who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost) are a relative few. The vast majority of mankind will go to Heaven and receive at least a portion of God's glory.

I'm curious about something. You've mentioned a couple of times that you don't believe we will be given a second chance to accept Jesus Christ. But you have never addressed what you believe will happen to the literally billions of individuals who died without ever having had a first chance to accept Him, either because they lived before He did, or because they lived in a part of the world where Christianity was unknown during their lifetimes. What do you believe will happen to them?

 

[sojourner]

I don't mean ask them to flame you...but I'm really curious...

How do you reconcile this belief with biblical scripture which states that Satan will be destroyed?

IF Satan exists...which I doubt...it may mean that God will break his willful ways, and will destroy the evil that Satan has wrought. That explanation sounds a little weird to me, though, because I discount Satan to begin with.

 

[Squirt]

Does that mean my comments too?

Of course.

God's mercy is UNLIMITED! God forgives whomever He wants: Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists etc. On which degree of heaven they will occupy, is detemined by their effort in finding the truth. Not all people are able to find the truth, even though they have spent huge amount of time searching. Effort matters! Ignorance has no excuse. But the responsibility of their deeds still needs to be taken into action to fulfill the concept of justice among humans, not all will go straightaway to heaven, which I know is quite different from the point of view of Christianity.

Oh my gosh! That is so similar to my belief! Is this your own point of view? I don't recall ever hearing it expressed this way by a Muslim before.

 

[Squirt]

God respects our "right" to rebel...but one day, God will get God's way, because God's love is far, far greater than our resistance.

So you're saying that we really don't have free will, and that God literally will force the unwilling into Heaven?

 

[dawny0826]

I'm curious about something. You've mentioned a couple of times that you don't believe we will be given a second chance to accept Jesus Christ. But you have never addressed what you believe will happen to the literally billions of individuals who died without ever having had a first chance to accept Him, either because they lived before He did, or because they lived in a part of the world where Christianity was unknown during their lifetimes. What do you believe will happen to them?

This is a good question, Squirt. Admitedly, I'm not sure of my answer to this anymore.

I take the Great Commission, set forth by Christ very seriously. I think that it's the Christian's responsibility to witness to as many as possible and spread the good news...so that people DO hear the news and make a decision for themselves.

And my views on death are changing. I used to believe whole heartedly that when the believer dies, they go directly to heaven and the non-believer goes directly to hell.

But after reading and rereading 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18...I'm not so sure that we go directly to heaven or hell anymore.

What I do know is that Christ is the way to the Father. So...I totally believe that an individual who has not accepted Christ in this life will not be with God in the afterlife...period.

As far as those who have never heard of Christ before at all...I don't really have an answer, anymore. I don't know what will happen to them. And I haven't found anything biblically that has answered that question for myself yet.

I don't interpret 2 Peter 3:18-22 to mean that those who have never heard of Christ or didn't accept Christ in life will have the opportunity to accept Christ in the spirit prison.

The scripture states that Christ went to the people "who formerly were disobedient when once the Divine longsuffering waited inthe days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is 8 souls, were saved through water"

I don't believe that this applies to those who were bound to the OT covenants and the NT covenant that we are bound to in Christ.

I believe confidently that we wil ALL be judged...so who am I to say that Christ will not take into consideration that some have not known of him? I really don't know how that's going to work. And that uncertainty is enough to kick my butt into action. I give as much as I can to missions and I really try to live my life as "light and salt".

 

[dawny0826]

IF Satan exists...which I doubt...it may mean that God will break his willful ways, and will destroy the evil that Satan has wrought. That explanation sounds a little weird to me, though, because I discount Satan to begin with.

Again...not a flame...I'm just very interested in understanding where you're coming from here...

So...do you believe in portions of the bible only or do you simply believe that a great percentage of it is symbolic?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the rear and you can let me know if I am...

What is the Bible to you? Summarize what the central focuses are to you? And what themes don't fly with you at all.

(Squirt...again...apologies. If I'm derailing your thread...say the word and I'll post this elsewhere. )

 

[dawny0826]

First of all, I believe hell is primarily Satan's domain and I don't believe that Satan and Lucifer are the same. I believe that Earth is Lucifer's domain...the place of experience. I can't say for certain what an afterlife would be like. I don't really think about it much. I don't think taking Lucifer's side is going to be an easy ride, but that's not what I'm looking for anyway. In some ways, I'm no different than Christians. I simply have faith. I have faith and trust in Lucifer. Whatever he needs from me in the afterlife, I'll do it for him. That's what comrades do.

As far as hell goes, I don't think it's anything like the bible describes to be honest with you. Hell is Satan's domain and I don't believe for a second that he's going to be punishing enemies of God. If he's punishing anyone in hell, it will be his own enemies.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, Danisty. I appreciate your response.

And I hope I'm not a nag with questions...this is very interesting to me.

Obviously you have faith in Lucifer. Do you worship Lucifer and establish a relationshiop with Lucifer much as Christians do with Christ?

 

[Ðanisty]

Thanks for taking the time to answer, Danisty. I appreciate your response.

It's not a problem. I'm just glad my thoughts are as important to you as everyone else's. I don't say these things to hurt other people either. I'm just saying what is true for me. It is not my intention to get people all riled up or anything. I just don't like to bite my tongue just because my beliefs aren't as popular. I hope people understand that...

Obviously you have faith in Lucifer. Do you worship Lucifer and establish a relationshiop with Lucifer much as Christians do with Christ?

Yes and no. My relationship with Lucifer wouldn't be exactly like your relationship with Christ, but there is a relationship there. To me, Lucifer is a brother, a father, a friend, a mentor, a teacher, a lover, and a comrade. He may ask me to do things for him, but it is not because I am beneath him. I am beside him and if something I can do will help him, I do it because I love him. Likewise, he does things for me when I need his help. Overall though, there are probably more similarities than there are differences.

The concept of worship really comes down to how you define it. The traditional idea of worship where one submits to and is subservient to another is not something that is appealing to Lucifer. He's looking for people who will at the very least strive to be his equal. So, in the traditional sense, I do not worship Lucifer. However, if one defines worship as acknowledgement, admiration, and respect, then I would say what I do falls into that category.