Your views on Alcohol: ALL Christians, trinitarian, unitarian or anyone claiming to b

[doppelganger]

Yeah... that would be killing, not murder.

Actually, I prefer the term "involuntary recycling of biological material." Then I can do it with impunity.:thud:

 

[sojourner]

1. My personal belief and one that many Disciples share is that the problem is not alcohol per se, but rather the abuse of it. When people spend grocery or rent/mortgage money on alcohol or start withdrawing from family and friends because they'd rather get drunk, then they have a real serious problem.
2. I believe so. Jesus turned water into wine AND admonished those who were who drunkards.
3. Our church uses grape juice instead of wine and forbids alcohol in any church property. I've shared a beer with our pastor. We were at a Super Bowl party with friends from our church and from other sources. We had plenty of food, and nobody got drunk. Some people did not drink, and we respected their choice. I guess you could say it is partly based on social pressures in that if there is no alcohol in the church, no one will feel pressured to drink it.
4. Yes. We have several recovering alcoholics in our congregation, and our church hosts AA meetings. The purpose of the Lord's Supper is to recognize Jesus' sacrifice that unites us as Christians. What matters is that we come to the table. The liquid we use to symbolize the blood is secondary. If some people are uncomfortable with wine, there is no harm in using a non-alcoholic drink. We also fill some communion cups with water at the request of some diabetic members. I'm very comfortable with that action as well. :162:

This may be a better question for the Disciples forum, but it's cogent here, too.

What about those of us who are uncomfortable with something that is not real wine? Does it not undermine the inclusiveness of the Table to limit our choices of what is meaningful for us?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Actually, I prefer the term "involuntary recycling of biological material." Then I can do it with impunity.:thud:

If you can live with that kind of self-actualization, fine.

It's not mine.

 

[sojourner]

Anything?! Like murder, adultery, and lying?

These are, by definition, extreme.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur or Becky,

Could you provide the precise reading on this for us? Becky gave us a link to the ENTIRE text, but I would like to see it narrowed down just a tad. Thanks in advance.

The entire text isn't that all that long, Pete. I'm not sure how I could narrow it down. I have put in in paragraph form for you and removed all of the footnotes for easier reading, though:

The Doctrine & Covenants, Section 89: Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.

"A word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—to be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—that inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make. And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies. And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill. And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving. Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; and these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger. All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.


And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen."

If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them, but I just didn't know how to condense it.

 

[SoyLeche]

It is a *vile* drink that turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrels.

 

[Quiddity]

I'd echo this. The only thing I'd add is that a small amount of wine, in the Eucharist, is not just fine, but required, and, yes, this is totally consistent with Scripture (I won't say Scripturally based as that doesn't really work in our faith). And no, it certainly wasn't grape juice that was used at the Last Supper.

James

*echo echo*

 

[dawny0826]

OK, there are SOOOO MANY reactions to alcohol within Christendom...

1. What DO you believe?
2. Is it scripturally based?
3. Is it based on social pressures?
4. Are you comfortable with how your congregation views alcohol???

1. Light alcohol consumption (red wine) can actually be good for your health. And clearly, Christ didn't have an issue with alcohol as He Himself enjoyed it.

Alcoholism is a serious problem. In addition to health hazards, the effects can have a negative effect on one's relationship with Christ.

However,I'm sure many alcoholics have FOUND Christ when hitting rock bottom (as a result of their alcoholism) so who am I to judge?

One chooses where alcohol stands in their life. Personally, I enjoy a good Long Island Iced Tea or a shot of tequila every now and then. I enjoy drinking with my husband, friends and family.

2. I don't recall biblical scripture which states that one can't drink. Naturally, it's sinful to place ANYTHING before Christ. I don't think that the lush is any more or less sinful than a thief or a liar. Sin is sin.

3. Social pressures have little to do with my opinion on alcohol.

4. The church that I've most recently attended service at doesn't have a formal stance on alcohol. My sister just married the Pastor's son and my Dad plays golf the Pastor quite a bit. My Dad drinks on the golf course. The Pastor doesn't.

I've never heard Pastor comment on the consumption of alcohol other than to illustrate behaviors that can keep us mentally focused on Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

1. Light alcohol consumption (red wine) can actually be good for your health. And clearly, Christ didn't have an issue with alcohol as He Himself enjoyed it.

First off, it's not the alcohol that is good for you, but the grapes themselves. You can get exactly the same health benefits from grape juice! Second, to the best of my knowledge, "alcohol" is never actually mentioned in the Bible. I'm not saying that Jesus didn't drink wine; what I am saying is that we don't know exactly what the alcohol content of that wine was.

 

[kmkemp]

I don't drink. I don't think that drinking alcohol is unbiblical although it does say to not get drunk. Still, being a Christian is also about standing out and conforming to what unbelievers would probably consider Christian behavior (Paul speaks about this). So, I guess it is sort of a personal conviction. I have many friends who are Christians and drink several times a week. I don't usually say anything to them unless they ask me why I'm not drinking.

 

[dawny0826]

First off, it's not the alcohol that is good for you, but the grapes themselves. You can get exactly the same health benefits from grape juice!

If I want grape juice...I'll drink grape juice.

If I want a glass of wine...I'll drink a glass of wine.

I'm not going to feel guilty for drinking either.

There are pros and cons to drinking BOTH.

Second, to the best of my knowledge, "alcohol" is never actually mentioned in the Bible. I'm not saying that Jesus didn't drink wine; what I am saying is that we don't know exactly what the alcohol content of that wine was.

Does it matter? Those who feel it's wrong to drink it...will not and those who drink alcohol will drink...

 

[Scuba Pete]

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. -NIV

 

[dawny0826]

I don't drink. I don't think that drinking alcohol is unbiblical although it does say to not get drunk. Still, being a Christian is also about standing out and conforming to what unbelievers would probably consider Christian behavior (Paul speaks about this). So, I guess it is sort of a personal conviction. I have many friends who are Christians and drink several times a week. I don't usually say anything to them unless they ask me why I'm not drinking.

I agree with you...entirely. I believe the "to drink or not to drink" question should be answered based upon one's own convictions.

I'm a Christian. I'm also a woman who has an alcoholic for a father. I would NEVER want my children to experience what my father is tormented with (by his own choosing). I want better for myself and I know that Christ wants better for me.

I may enjoy an alcoholic beverage (or more) at a family bar-b-que or when watching a movie with my husband. I might want an alcoholic drink with my meal.

Sometimes, I enjoy the effects of alcohol but there's a time and place for it.

It irritates me when people in my life talk down to me if I have a drink. I have nothing to hide if I drink an alcoholic beverage. I'm twenty eight years old. I work very hard and I shouldn't be made to feel like I'm in the wrong for enjoying something that I'm legally able to enjoy.

And I have yet to find biblical justification that light to moderate consumption of an alcoholic beverage is wrong or even sinful.

 

[Katzpur]

If I want grape juice...I'll drink grape juice.

If I want a glass of wine...I'll drink a glass of wine.

I'm not going to feel guilty for drinking either.

There are pros and cons to drinking BOTH.

I don't think you should have to feel guilty, Dawny. I was just pointing out that there are no specific "health benefits" to wine that can be attributed to the alcohol it contains.

Does it matter? Those who feel it's wrong to drink it...will not and those who drink alcohol will drink...

No, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest. If my religion did not forbid it, I would definitely enjoy a glass of wine with my dinner now and then.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I don't believe Christians should drink alcohol at all, and my congregation holds the same belief. It is scripturally based.

As far as my personal views on alcohol and heavy drinkers go, it's just nasty. I'm so sick of going to football games and watching people act like fools because they've had too much beer. And smelling all that alcohol makes me dizzy. I just don't see why anyone would drink anything that dims their senses, could make them act like idiots if they drink too much, and could potentially trigger an addiction that ruins their health.

 

[Dream Angel]

I don't think you should have to feel guilty, Dawny. I was just pointing out that there are no specific "health benefits" to wine that can be attributed to the alcohol it contains.

Actually Katz - there is one - it helps to keep the blood flowing and it also thins the blood so is apparantly very good for people with high BP. Personally I dont like alchohol so dont drink it anyway - I have got to the point now where if I do have the slightest I am sick, as my body isnt used to it.

I think it is a personal choice - I dont see problem with people have a glass a two a week. What I dont agree with is people who equate alcohol with being social. I have been told many times that I am unsociable because I dont drink. I dont need alcohol to enjoy myself and IMO people who need alchohol to enjoy themselves lead a very sad life.

I have been drunk and it was awful! I dont see how people find that fun or sociable!

 

[dawny0826]

Actually Katz - there is one - it helps to keep the blood flowing and it also thins the blood so is apparantly very good for people with high BP. Personally I dont like alchohol so dont drink it anyway - I have got to the point now where if I do have the slightest I am sick, as my body isnt used to it.

I think it is a personal choice - I dont see problem with people have a glass a two a week. What I dont agree with is people who equate alcohol with being social. I have been told many times that I am unsociable because I dont drink. I dont need alcohol to enjoy myself and IMO people who need alchohol to enjoy themselves lead a very sad life.

I have been drunk and it was awful! I dont see how people find that fun or sociable!

You have the right to disagree with people drinking socially but drinking socially doesn't mean that one lives a very sad life.

There are some social situations in my life, where I'd be dissapointed not to find a bit of alcohol. Does this mean that I'm a sad person and lead a sad life?

If people give you a hard time because you choose not to drink in a social setting, they obvious have issues but I don't think they're sad because they enjoy alcoholic beverages while having fun.

Mind you, I DO have quite an issue with alcoholism. I don't have a problem with light to moderate drinking in a responsible manner.

 

[Dream Angel]

You have the right to disagree with people drinking socially but drinking socially doesn't mean that one lives a very sad life.

There are some social situations in my life, where I'd be dissapointed not to find a bit of alcohol. Does this mean that I'm a sad person and lead a sad life?

If people give you a hard time because you choose not to drink in a social setting, they obvious have issues but I don't think they're sad because they enjoy alcoholic beverages while having fun.

Mind you, I DO have quite an issue with alcoholism. I don't have a problem with light to moderate drinking in a responsible manner.

I think you misread my post! I said "NEED alcohol to enjoy themselves. Meaning the only way they think they can be social is to drink. I am not on about people who enjoy themselves whether they are drinking or not and have a drink from time to time - even every night - I am on about people who say that to enjoy oneself, one MUST drink. That really annoys me - as I dont drink, I dont NEED drink and yet can still have the best time of my life!

Another thing I didnt say I disagreed with people drinking SOCIALLY - I said I dont like when all they do is drink and get flat out drunk - its neither fun for the person (unless you like the world feeling upside down) or people around them

 

[dawny0826]

I think you misread my post! I said "NEED alcohol to enjoy themselves. Meaning the only way they think they can be social is to drink. I am not on about people who enjoy themselves whether they are drinking or not and have a drink from time to time - even every night - I am on about people who say that to enjoy oneself, one MUST drink. That really annoys me - as I dont drink, I dont NEED drink and yet can still have the best time of my life!

Another thing I didnt say I disagreed with people drinking SOCIALLY - I said I dont like when all they do is drink and get flat out drunk - its neither fun for the person (unless you like the world feeling upside down) or people around them

No, I didn't misread your post at all.

There are certain social settings where I feel the need to drink to fully enjoy myself. I suppose I'm just one of the sad ones.

 

[Dream Angel]

No, I didn't misread your post at all.

There are certain social settings where I feel the need to drink to fully enjoy myself. I suppose I'm just one of the sad ones.

Yes you are!

Why do you feel the need to drink to have fun? Is it confidence, self esteem? If you dont mind me asking!