Your thoughts on both sides?

[Octavia156]

Dear Islam DIR

I know I am in heated debate with some of you elsewhere on this forum, I hope you can speak in this thread without prejudice, and acknowledge I'm taking your advice by speaking to more Muslims in order to remedy my apparent ignorance.

I am watching this debate:

And I have been profoundly moved by Tariq Ramadans opening statement on the concept of Jihad as an interal war with oneself to find inner peace. starts: 00.19.08

For me, what he describes IS the Aim of religion - My religions motto is the Method of Science, The Aim of Religion. The Aim we refer to is profoundly similar to Tariq description. It was surprising and refreshing to hear these words from him in this context.

His interpretation of jihad is intrinsic even to my own relgion, we don't see it as a war per se, but we call it The Great Work.

What do you think of Tariq's opening statement? Is this how you view your religion? If so - do you think this is the common view held my the 1.6 billion muslims in the world.. or is it perhaps too esoteric for the masses?

What would be your response to Christopher Hitches Opening statement regarding the notions of Total Perfection, the infalliabiliy of the Qu'ran and the intrinsic sexual repression bornn from gender inequality, as aspects that perhaps should be looked at or revised? starts 00.05.45

 

[beenie]

A quote by Tariq Ramadan is my signature for a reason.

 

[Union]

Hi Octavia . The following is a brief synopsis of Jihad from the Qur'an . Hope it will help .

'jihad' is a common Arabic word meaning to strive/struggle or exert effort, and is used in different ways depending on context in The Quran. We learn from The Quran that believers must be willing to exert effort in the cause of God, using their wealth and themselves. This effort/jihad may or may not include fighting. It does not have an exclusive meaning of 'holy war' or 'fighting', as shown below.

An example in The Quran where 'jihad' refers to giving 'effort' as charity as opposed to giving money/objects as charity:

It is these (hypocrites) who find fault with such of the believers who give generously in charity, and they find fault with such believers who have nothing to give but their effort, God disdains them, and they will have a painful retribution. [9:79]

An example in The Quran where 'jihad' can mean parents 'striving' to change the beliefs of their children. Please note, even in such circumstances believers are still asked to treat them amicably:

If they strive to make you set up any partners besides Me, then do not obey them. But continue to treat them amicably in this world. You shall follow only the path of those who have sought Me. Ultimately, you all return to Me, then I will inform you of everything you have done. [31:15]

In the following verses of The Quran, striving/jihad in God's cause leading to guidance is contrasted to turning away from the truth and fabricating lies about God:

Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies and attributes them to God, or denies the truth when it comes to him? Is there not a place in Hell for those who deny the truth? As for those who strive in Our cause, We will guide them to Our paths. For God is with the pious. [29:68-69]

The 'great jihad' is mentioned in The Quran is in the following verse and it refers to striving against those who deny the truth with the message of truth:

And if We wish, We could send to every town a warner. So do not obey those who deny the truth, and strive against them with it (The Quran) in a great striving. [25:51-52]

 

[Pastek]

His interpretation of jihad is intrinsic even to my own relgion, we don't see it as a war per se, but we call it The Great Work.

What's your religion ?

What do you think of Tariq's opening statement? Is this how you view your religion? If so - do you think this is the common view held my the 1.6 billion muslims in the world.. or is it perhaps too esoteric for the masses?

I don't have time right now to watch this video.
But we know very well Tariq Ramadan in France, and i'm most of time ok with him.
He used to have (and still have) great (non muslims) opponents in France, don't know why.

 

[Octavia156]

What's your religion ?



I don't have time right now to watch this video.
But we know very well Tariq Ramadan in France, and i'm most of time ok with him.
He used to have (and still have) great (non muslims) opponents in France, don't know why.

He was intersting to watch. He had a very hard person to debate against.

My religion is 'Thelema' which means Will. We believe that every person has a specfic purpose in this life and peace comes from finding that path and walking it - and only it. We call this Knowledge and Conversation of the Perfected Self - This is The Great Work, and perfecting oneself is Great indeed.. and requires great struggle and sacrifce on a spiritual level.

It was from this frame of reference I listened to Tariq.

I see the Great Work described in every Sufi text - if I replace "God" with my Perfected self - sometimes called one's Holy Guardian Angel, for in Thelema we believe that man is god, that we are Gods of our own universe. "I am Omniscient, for naught exists for me unless I know it" We answer to no higher power than our personal Holy Guardian Angel.
The resposibility of this requires immense Discipline which is the Primary Pillar of our practise.

But I'm not here to talk about Thelema

EDIT: A new DIR has opened today for discussion on Thelema. Our Law is described here if you are interested: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/thelema-dir/148687-law-thelema.html

In his rebuttle Hitches asks if Tariq is in a minority of Muslims. IS he right do you think? Does Tariq represent a small minorty of enlightened Muslims?

 

[Assad91]

I see the Great Work described in every Sufi text - if I replace "God" with my Perfected self - sometimes called one's Holy Guardian Angel, for in Thelema we believe that man is god, that we are Gods of our own universe. "I am Omniscient, for naught exists for me unless I know it" We answer to no higher power than our personal Holy Guardian Angel.
The resposibility of this requires immense Discipline which is the Primary Pillar of our practise.

This is a Sufi practice? Where did you read this?

In his rebuttle Hitches asks if Tariq is in a minority of Muslims. IS he right do you think? Does Tariq represent a small minorty of enlightened Muslims?

No, he is not in the minority. There was a recent campaign in the States about this. #MyJihad: Reclaiming Islam

And really, a lot of these "jihadis" don't even know the basics of the Fiqh regarding Jihad. It doesn't permit you to go and kill innocent people, even fellow muslims. yet we hear in Pakistan of the Taliban killing Muslims and destroying graves. This is not Islamic, instead it is Saudi hatred.

 

[Pastek]

My religion is 'Thelema' which means Will.

Ok, thanks. Never heard about that religion before.

In his rebuttle Hitches asks if Tariq is in a minority of Muslims. IS he right do you think? Does Tariq represent a small minorty of enlightened Muslims?

I will tell you something.
The majority of muslims in France, have no problems with Tarik Ramadan.

We have other people more or less like him who are often invited in french shows like Tahar Ben Jeloun, Malek Chebel, or Abdennour Bidar.
I would say that muslims could have probably more problems with the views of Abdennour Bidar, too philosophical for the majority of muslims (well, he is also a philosoph), maybe he's a soufi like his mother and his views may not fit with the majority.

Anyway, they talk about many subjects and invite muslims an non muslims to debate.
They all clearly said that we (muslims) have a "work to do" about ourselves and our problems as we are in a period of crisis.

 

[Octavia156]

This is a Sufi practice? Where did you read this?


No, he is not in the minority. There was a recent campaign in the States about this. #MyJihad: Reclaiming Islam

And really, a lot of these "jihadis" don't even know the basics of the Fiqh regarding Jihad. It doesn't permit you to go and kill innocent people, even fellow muslims. yet we hear in Pakistan of the Taliban killing Muslims and destroying graves. This is not Islamic, instead it is Saudi hatred.

I understand.

This concept of personal jihad, if I understand it correctly is quite a mystical and complex practise. I imagine it is just as hard for less self aware people, or people who perhaps lack the mental faculties ofr intelligence to practise this level of self analysis?
Its difficult no?

Regarding Sufi practise - no I didn't mean they, the Sufi's, replaced God with anything, i meant I do.
Sometimes I read spiritual or mystical texts or poetry and they just go completely over my head or have no meaning at all.
Some texts I read I just think - yep - I know what you're talking about.. maybe its a spiritual experience, or a form of gnosis.. but I find I get that sense of connection or gnostic understanding when I read Sufi texts, as I do some toaist or Yogic texts regarding states of enlightenment.

Completing? Winng? accompishing? how do you say it? jihad is like, or a form of enlightenment perhaps?

 

[Assad91]

I understand.

This concept of personal jihad, if I understand it correctly is quite a mystical and complex practise. I imagine it is just as hard for less self aware people, or people who perhaps lack the mental faculties ofr intelligence to practise this level of self analysis?
Its difficult no?

Regarding Sufi practise - no I didn't mean they, the Sufi's, replaced God with anything, i meant I do.
Sometimes I read spiritual or mystical texts or poetry and they just go completely over my head or have no meaning at all.
Some texts I read I just think - yep - I know what you're talking about.. maybe its a spiritual experience, or a form of gnosis.. but I find I get that sense of connection or gnostic understanding when I read Sufi texts, as I do some toaist or Yogic texts regarding states of enlightenment.

Completing? Winng? accompishing? how do you say it? jihad is like, or a form of enlightenment perhaps?

Haha, no, please don'tbe offensive. I read a lot of sufi poetry and have respect for sufi practice. I've been contemplating joining naqshbandi tariq.

The greater Jihad, of the soul, is the most difficult struggle any one can partake. You make progress one day, but sink the next. It is a constant struggle, jihad. And I guess you can say it is like enlightenment. You learn who you are and you work on bettering yourself.

 

[Assad91]

Disregard first sentence, I misread, and cant edit

 

[Octavia156]

Indeed.

The Freemasonic order I belong to has is roots in the Al-Banna (The Builders) and Mansur Al Hallaj plays an inportant role in our teachings.

I find Sufism resonates very well with my beliefs, I love Rumi's poetry.

The Greater Jihad of the Soul sounds very much like our term The Great Work.

 

[Matemkar]

Salam. I usually see Tariq Ramadan on "Islam and Life" TV program but I did not know much about his discussions elsewhere. Thanks for sharing. I like his arguments.

You mentioned Jihad al-Nafs, the inner struggle. Nice to know you study it.
About irfaan as in "knowing one's self, and knowing the Lord", I love it also.
And, I like Hallaj al-Mansour, too. In "The Wine of Love" Imam Khomeini (r.a) always mentions his claim, and portrays it as the main goal.
And I love Self Building books. My favourite was "the Four Prisons of Man" AKA "Modern Man and his Prisons" by Ali Shariati. You might also like to read it ma salam