Your best argument that G-d does not exist

[leibowde84]

EDIT summary post 47

To be an athiest, one states that God does not exist, period. When someone just lacks belief, God can exist even in their disbelief. They dont have to acknowledge it, but if they dont state he doesnt, its just a belief and not a statement. Which differentiates hard and weak athiests.

No. God does not have to exist for one to disbelieve in him. Belief, to me, is like an opinion. Its flimsy. Why state you disbelief in a flying monkey rathed than just sayingbpoint blank, flying monkeys dont exist period. Take the belief out...thiest say they Know God exists athiest say they lack belief. Unless the thiesf have the wrong point of view, why is atheism based on belief when the theist view is based on certainty even if it is wrong?




EDIT

I just caught it. To lack belief In God, they must believe He exist because not believing in someone doesnt mean the same as they dont exist. THAT is what I meant.

I find it useless language to say you lack belief in something that never existed. If we were not having a religious discussion and we havnt heard of any god like language, it would be pointless to say "i dont believe x exists" when its general knoweldge that x doesnt."

In other words, its useless to say "I dont believe two and two is five" and call myself a (make up word) ATwo.Is.Fourist unless Im making a point in a discussion. The statement means nothing if not based on, for or against, reality which in this case, God existing.

Are you actually saying "to lack a belief in the existence of God means that one must believe in the existence of God"? I've got to say, that might be the most illogical stance I have ever read. If you believe that God exists, then you DO NOT lack a belief in the exitence of God. No problem. The opposite way, if you don't believe in the existence of God then you don't believe that God exists, works fine too. Unless you are discussing the belief in the concept of God as a linguistic term rather than believing in the existence of the entity, your logic is severely flawed.

 

[leibowde84]

EDIT summary post 47

To be an athiest, one states that God does not exist, period. When someone just lacks belief, God can exist even in their disbelief. They dont have to acknowledge it, but if they dont state he doesnt, its just a belief and not a statement. Which differentiates hard and weak athiests.

No. God does not have to exist for one to disbelieve in him. Belief, to me, is like an opinion. Its flimsy. Why state you disbelief in a flying monkey rathed than just sayingbpoint blank, flying monkeys dont exist period. Take the belief out...thiest say they Know God exists athiest say they lack belief. Unless the thiesf have the wrong point of view, why is atheism based on belief when the theist view is based on certainty even if it is wrong?




EDIT

I just caught it. To lack belief In God, they must believe He exist because not believing in someone doesnt mean the same as they dont exist. THAT is what I meant.

I find it useless language to say you lack belief in something that never existed. If we were not having a religious discussion and we havnt heard of any god like language, it would be pointless to say "i dont believe x exists" when its general knoweldge that x doesnt."

In other words, its useless to say "I dont believe two and two is five" and call myself a (make up word) ATwo.Is.Fourist unless Im making a point in a discussion. The statement means nothing if not based on, for or against, reality which in this case, God existing.

Just to be clear, "lack" in this context means "to be without".

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The Atheists to give their proofs and evidences to convince the Theists

Regards

If you want a specific god we can then go into evidences counter to the claims of their existence but god in general has one glaring point of evidence against him. And it is the profound lack of evidence. Nothing that can be measured or quantified. However this hasn't stopped believers from believing and it isn't a smoking gun to say god doesn't exist. But it is more than enough for me to doubt his existence.

 

[leibowde84]

That makes sense. How can you say "In all fairness, all gods exists, as a concept simply because they are claimed to exist." (#23) if the gods do not exist in reality just in the media used to present them?


I have a question on this. If an weak-atheist or agnostic just merely lack belief in the existence of God, they would have to believe God exists in the first place. They can't be any type of atheist if they believe God exists (similar to my not believing

To "lack" a belief is not the same as a belief that is "lacking". To "lack" in this context means to be without.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is a summary of my point in these two posts below:

I think I agree if I understand you, an atheist first has a specific defined concept of God, right or wrong, to then be skeptical of - so this God too exists conceptually

Exactly. He doesnt have to believe In God. He just has to have some type of concept, at least, to base his lack of belief on

Are you actually saying "to lack a belief in the existence of God means that one must believe in the existence of God"? I've got to say, that might be the most illogical stance I have ever read. If you believe that God exists, then you DO NOT lack a belief in the exitence of God. No problem. The opposite way, if you don't believe in the existence of God then you don't believe that God exists, works fine too. Unless you are discussing the belief in the concept of God as a linguistic term rather than believing in the existence of the entity, your logic is severely flawed.

I just feel you cant say you dont believe something that you had no concept of even existing.

For example, if I bowed my head to pray as an athiest, and started talking, who would I be talking to? Prayer is usully a conversation, so like in any, i need to have a concept or belief in the person I am praying to even though he doesnt exist. Likewise in stating you lack belief in something. "God" is not just a word. God can mean anything then. If you had a concept of God (or God exists) its easier to understans who you lack belief in.

Then again, if you lack belief in it, is that the same as saying he does not exist to an athiest?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Just to be clear, "lack" in this context means "to be without".

I lack belief whether God exists or not? (its more of a soft statement given room for God to exist)

Which is different than

God doesnt exist (i dont need a concept to say he doesnt exist.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

To "lack" a belief is not the same as a belief that is "lacking". To "lack" in this context means to be without.

To make a close ended statment, one could say "I lack belief in God because i know he does not exist."

 

[leibowde84]

Here is a summary of my point in these two posts below:






I just feel you cant say you dont believe something that you had no concept of even existing.

For example, if I bowed my head to pray as an athiest, and started talking, who would I be talking to? Prayer is usully a conversation, so like in any, i need to have a concept or belief in the person I am praying to even though he doesnt exist. Likewise in stating you lack belief in something. "God" is not just a word. God can mean anything then. If you had a concept of God (or God exists) its easier to understans who you lack belief in.

Then again, if you lack belief in it, is that the same as saying he does not exist to an athiest?

I think this is the crux of the issue. Thanks for bringing this up.

There is no requirement for the understanding of a concept, as the only requirement for atheism is to be without the belief that God exists. Those that have not ever heard of the concept of God are certainly without a belief in the existence of God or gods, as they have no reason to hold one. Again, the term "lack" merely means to be without something in this context. It is not saying an insufficient amount of belief.

In regards to your example, an atheist who bows his head to pray would be doing so fraudulently. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. An atheist is one who does not believe that God exists. Thus, an Atheist would have no reason to pray, as God would merely be a vague concept to him/her.

You go on to say this, "Prayer is usually a conversation, so like in any, I need to have a concept or belief in the person I am praying to even though he doesn't exist." Now, this clearly is illogical. You are contradicting yourself. An Atheist is one who does not believe in the existence of God. Thus, an Atheist is not going to pray because, to the Atheist, God is merely a concept invented by humans ... God doesn't exist apart from the linguistic concept to one who does not believe.

Your final point, "if you lack belief [in God], is that the same as saying [God] does not exist to an atheist", is almost right on. Saying that a person "lacks a belief in the existence of God" is saying that the individual "does not believe in the existence of God" or that they "don't think that God exists in reality". If you think that God exists, then you "believe in the existence of God". If don't think that God exists, then you "lack a belief in the existence of God".

 

[leibowde84]

To make a close ended statment, one could say "I lack belief in God because i know he does not exist."

That would be an extremely ignorant statement, as no one can "know" whether God exists or does not exist. All understanding of God is based on belief. Certainty, in this context, is imagined. One claiming that they "know God exists" is, in reality, merely saying that they have a strong belief in the existence of God. "Knowledge" is not a defining factor in either of these definitions.

 

[leibowde84]

To make a close ended statment, one could say "I lack belief in God because i know he does not exist."

That being said, one who makes this statement would be a "strong-atheist", or one that believes actively that God does not (or cannot) exist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thus, an Atheist is not going to pray because, to the Atheist, God is merely a concept invented by humans ... God doesn't exist apart from the linguistic concept to one who does not believe.

The point is not whether they will or not. Of course,not make sense. The point is IF they did, they would have to have a concept of God if they say they are praying to him.

Your final point, "if you lack belief [in God], is that the same as saying [God] does not exist to an atheist", is almost right on. Saying that a person "lacks a belief in the existence of God" is saying that the individual "does not believe in the existence of God" or that they "don't think that God exists in reality". If you think that God exists, then you "believe in the existence of God". If don't think that God exists, then you "lack a belief in the existence of God".

Its not too much the same. If someone has not heard of God, that does not mean theybdont believe He exist...if they have a revelation, and found He does, then they wont lack belief.

On the other hand, an athiest will say, God does not exist. Whether he lacks bief or not doesnt negate God does not exist.

I think I understand what youre saying. Im saying one is an open ended statement. The other closed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That being said, one who makes this statement would be a "strong-atheist", or one that believes actively that God does not (or cannot) exist.

Yes. There is no "belief" that God could exist in strong athiesm. That is like my leaving room that two and two might equal five. I lack belief that it does because I know it doesnt. I know God is a concept of the mind and culture. I lack belief because I know he (whichever god) does not exist. Maybe it sounds ignorant but i compare it to math. Why would it be ignorant to say two and two does not equal five?

Side note: Also, you have to say which God. I use the God-Lanuage to refer to my reverence of the earth sometimes. God would be the sun, for example. "He" gives us life (energy) just as God in the Quran gives life by spirit. The former, there is no external god to which their language makes sense outside of psychology and culture. The latter, the sun exists and gives energy regardless of how I refer to it.

/shrugs/

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

The Atheists to give their proofs and evidences to convince the Theists

Regards

Atheists and theists are all out to lunch. There's not the first spec of non-hearsay evidence either way. And you can quote me.

 

[leibowde84]

I lack belief whether God exists or not? (its more of a soft statement given room for God to exist)

Which is different than

God doesnt exist (i dont need a concept to say he doesnt exist.)

I agree with all of this. A "lack of belief in the existence of God" is certainly not necessarily the same as "a belief that God does not exist". But, how does this change anything? You seem to have contradicted your earlier point by showing that one can "lack belief in the existence of God" without God necessarily existing.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes. There is no "belief" that God could exist in strong athiesm. That is like my leaving room that two and two might equal five. I lack belief that it does because I know it doesnt. I know God is a concept of the mind and culture. I lack belief because I know he (whichever god) does not exist. Maybe it sounds ignorant but i compare it to math. Why would it be ignorant to say two and two does not equal five?

Side note: Also, you have to say which God. I use the God-Lanuage to refer to my reverence of the earth sometimes. God would be the sun, for example. "He" gives us life (energy) just as God in the Quran gives life by spirit. The former, there is no external god to which their language makes sense outside of psychology and culture. The latter, the sun exists and gives energy regardless of how I refer to it.

/shrugs/

The concept of 2 + 2 = 4 is an abstract mathematical concept that is true simply because it works. There is no plausible doubt associated with it and, thus, it is not ignorant to claim that 2 + 2 does not equal 5. I'm not sure what that has to do with the concept of God, which can not be proved or disproved, as the idea of God is too vague. One might be able to disprove a specific God, but that is not what we are discussing. Atheism is "the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods". So, disproving a specific God doesn't get you anywhere. And, since the general idea of God is far too vague to disprove logically, it is ignorant to claim otherwise. In short, one cannot "know" that God exists or does not exist. The best they can do is percieve that they know or "think" that they know ... which is, literally, another way of saying "believe" or to have "faith".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I did? Im getting mixed up. I know by default that you can lack belief in God by not knowing He exists.

To those who have heard of God and say they are an athiest, I have the impression of a soft athiest who at one time believed God exist and now he doesnt believe He does.

I also see that if you are aware of God, there has to be some type of concept to base your conclusion on. "I believe that fire burns me" how would " I " believe this or not if I havent heard or seen fire. I cant make the statement without some familary with the concept itself.

Somewhat like my ESL class. They cant speak about conplex subjects until they have mastered the English vocabulary and grammatical conversations to do so. They believe these skills exist, and they lack the knowledge to conversate in english. (How can you say you lack knowedge in a language you have not heard about) So their familarity of the English language existing has to be present for them to say they have no knowledge in it.

Thats different than saying

There is no such thing as the English language (if there was no such thing but the general public act as if there is)

I agree with all of this. A "lack of belief in the existence of God" is certainly not necessarily the same as "a belief that God does not exist". But, how does this change anything? You seem to have contradicted your earlier point by showing that one can "lack belief in the existence of God" without God necessarily existing.

The last part. I said if one "states" they lack belief in God they need an concept of God to base that conclusion on.

If they do not believe God exist. God does not need to exist for them to make that statement. It would sound weird if we havnt heard the wlrd God before. Say "Giegon does not exist" that would be a useless comment. Since a lot of people have Some concept of God, its not totally off. Just only useful in conversations.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I just caught it. To lack belief In God, they must believe He exist because not believing in someone doesnt mean the same as they dont exist. THAT is what I meant.

I find it useless language to say you lack belief in something that never existed. If we were not having a religious discussion and we havnt heard of any god like language, it would be pointless to say "i dont believe x exists" when its general knoweldge that x doesnt."

In other words, its useless to say "I dont believe two and two is five" and call myself a (make up word

Yeah, I don't believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Superman or Bigfoot.

By saying that, I acknowledge that I believe Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Superman or Bigfoot exists ....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

e. In short, one cannot "know" that God exists or does not exist. The best they can do is percieve that they know or "think" that they know ... which is, literally, another way of saying "believe" or to have "faith".

Which God, though? If you mean an external God, I guess I get your point. To me, that is as if a thiest says "A ginopin exist. We know by faith." and instead of the athiest saying "no, it does not" he says "we cant proove a ginopi exists or not its to vague" leaving room for something to possibly exist because of the claim it does.

Athiesm should be (if im incorrect) the statement that God does Not exist regardless of how the thiest states that He does exist, by faith, literal, symbolic or otherwise.

Athiest statement there is no God is not a belief. Thiests, most i speak with, say there Is a God. Their faith is building a relationship that they Know God exists. Faith doesnt determine the existence of God just their relationship with a God they already Know exist.

Meanwhile, the athiest lacks belief in God which could mean to him that he exists "or" not. Its based on lack of belief not fact as the thiest claims their beliefs are based on.

I find that a common trait in athiests but not all, of course, shares that view athiesm is based on lack of belief rather than point blank, "it doesnt exist."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

With respect to deity...

I have always maintained that there is a difference between an atheist and a pet rock even when that difference is denied and/or unapparent.​

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

"As if just planted there" I see the same lack of evidence Dawkins does.

You are delusional.

Yeah, I don't believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Superman or Bigfoot.

By saying that, I acknowledge that I believe Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Superman or Bigfoot exists ....

Carlita, I got a "like" from you on the above post; but my statement was said with extreme sarcasm. Of course, I believe none of these exist. Saying that I believe none of these exists in no way means that I believe these to exist.