Your beliefs, your politics

[Jayhawker Soule]

And lets face it -- right now it is the right that is supporting freedom of religion. The left is pushing for a secular society where religion has to be kept private.

I'm not.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Homo Sapiens has been around for some 200,000 years, indoctrinating our children. There has been no ill effects on the children. Time did tell.

Religions probably haven't though.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Religions probably haven't though.

Not sure what you mean. As for me, I stand by what I said.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Not sure what you mean. As for me, I stand by what I said.

Religions can't be proved to have been around for 200,000 years - that is my point. Since religions have formed they have caused a lot of conflict and deaths - conveniently ignored of course, and what's to say we wouldn't have fared just as well without them. One can't rerun history but there are plenty who live quite happily without such beliefs.

 

[Secret Chief]

Religions can't be proved to have been around for 200,000 years - that is my point. Since religions have formed they have caused a lot of conflict and deaths - conveniently ignored of course, and what's to say we wouldn't have fared just as well without them. One can't rerun history but there are plenty who live quite happily without such beliefs.

I agree but we don't need religions to be appalling, we manage well enough with other sticks - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler....

 

[Mock Turtle]

I agree but we don't need religions to be appalling, we manage well enough with other sticks - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler....

So we should add to such by conflicting religions - and based on what?

 

[Secret Chief]

So we should add to such by conflicting religions - and based on what?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying?

Well I know that we are quite capable of killing ourselves for all sorts of reasons, and you mentioned a few of the leaders who we let into power who managed to subvert this, but we hardly need additional reasons where much is based on supposition as to what the meaning of life is or some God controlling such. That is the history of so many religions, even until current times.

 

[Secret Chief]

Well I know that we are quite capable of killing ourselves for all sorts of reasons, and you mentioned a few of the leaders who we let into power who managed to subvert this, but we hardly need additional reasons where much is based on supposition as to what the meaning of life is or some God controlling such. That is the history of so many religions, even until current times.

Ah yes I agree completely. We have plenty of "reasons" to kill each other without adding extra. Politics and religion are after all both systems of belief about reality that may (or may not) have any factual basis.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Religions can't be proved to have been around for 200,000 years - that is my point. Since religions have formed they have caused a lot of conflict and deaths - conveniently ignored of course, and what's to say we wouldn't have fared just as well without them. One can't rerun history but there are plenty who live quite happily without such beliefs.

Neanderthals, which predate homo sapiens, had some sort of religion. We know this by their belief in the afterlife (presence of flowers and stuff in graves). It stands to reason that Homo Sapiens would have this trait too, since we evolved from a common ancestor.

Chimps have primitive religion also. This new information about them is extremely fascinating!

 

[Mock Turtle]

Neanderthals, which predate homo sapiens, had some sort of religion. We know this by their belief in the afterlife (presence of flowers and stuff in graves). It stands to reason that Homo Sapiens would have this trait too, since we evolved from a common ancestor.

Chimps have primitive religion also. This new information about them is extremely fascinating!

All that is pure supposition, much like what we might attribute to cave art. Unless we have proper evidence we can't just assume what they thought and believed so long ago based upon what we perceive as being religious. And not sure what chimp evidence you have seen to suggest such.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And not sure what chimp evidence you have seen to suggest such.

Chimps engage in activities that, were they human, we would describe as religious. For example, they build cairns of stones at certain trees, which can serve no other purpose than religious.

 

[Secret Chief]

Scientists may have found evidence that chimps believe in god

And just like another great ape, they are capable of organised wars.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Chimps engage in activities that, were they human, we would describe as religious. For example, they build cairns of stones at certain trees, which can serve no other purpose than religious.

Really? I think one might have to look a bit further than to assign such as a motive when there still might be other explanations. Chimps seem to do other things that are not fully understood, like beating the same tree with a large stick and making some noise too. What could that be about? I still think we are in the early stages of understanding animal communication and we should just keep our minds open. And this is the problem - assigning human types of motivation because that is what we would do when they are not human and hence they might have entirely different motives.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Scientists may have found evidence that chimps believe in god

And just like another great ape, they are capable of organised wars.

Could is the word used. The loss and reverence (as in respect) for their dead would indicate that they were emotionally attached to those who died, and felt their loss, but what they did about such doesn't necessarily indicate any religious belief or understanding of what death entails. They might have some suspicions and relate this to something unknown but we are still in supposition territory. And organised wars would hardly be surprising if, as is often the case, groups are competing for resources.

And this comment about the article: The original paper in the publication Nature never mentions religion once. That’s a massive leap, even if it had something to do with thoughts of a higher power that does not mean religion. The original publication said it maybe related to war drumming, the stones or primitive tools that built up in the trees over time leading to it being a source of said tools. The other idea and closely related being that these places act as way markers for territories. Similar to what some of the human populations in Africa do. Whilst the human population ascribe a sacred nature to piles of stones it’s likely that came after their original use once the territories had changed. Coming across a random pile of stones might seem a bit spooky if you never knew what they were for. Just as coming across a Chimpanzees beating a tree with stones might seem a bit spooky if you didn’t understand what is was for.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Really? I think one might have to look a bit further than to assign such as a motive when there still might be other explanations. Chimps seem to do other things that are not fully understood, like beating the same tree with a large stick and making some noise too. What could that be about? I still think we are in the early stages of understanding animal communication and we should just keep our minds open. And this is the problem - assigning human types of motivation because that is what we would do when they are not human and hence they might have entirely different motives.

If a human being were beating a tree with a stick and making loud noises, we would conclude it was a religious activity.

Humans and primates do share a great deal in common, sir. It does make sense that they would be evolving a primitive sense of religion.

 

[Mock Turtle]

If a human being were beating a tree with a stick and making loud noises, we would conclude it was a religious activity.

Humans and primates do share a great deal in common, sir. It does make sense that they would be evolving a primitive sense of religion.

Really? Not noticed kids doing this for fun? It seems that beating trees (by any primate) is possibly to do with boundary issues - showing another group where their territory boundaries are and perhaps informing them that they are still as active as ever, so clear off our territory. There might be other explanations too. I'm not discounting any primate from having some kind of religious belief but I very much doubt that is the case before complex language occurs, and even though such does exist to some extent (we still have to research such), a concept of death and what this entails is far more likely to be a motivator for many actions or behaviours.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Really? Not noticed kids doing this for fun? It seems that beating trees (by any primate) is possibly to do with boundary issues - showing another group where their territory boundaries are and perhaps informing them that they are still as active as ever, so clear off our territory. There might be other explanations too. I'm not discounting any primate from having some kind of religious belief but I very much doubt that is the case before complex language occurs, and even though such does exist to some extent (we still have to research such), a concept of death and what this entails is far more likely to be a motivator for many actions or behaviours.

Bringing kids into the picture would be parallel to young chimps.

If you think there is some other explanation, then offer it.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Bringing kids into the picture would be parallel to young chimps.

If you think there is some other explanation, then offer it.

I've offered the most reasonable explanation already - boundary issues. Gorillas - the alpha male that is - are renowned for making a noise and such to demonstrate their superiority over all others and showing who is boss. It's a bit difficult to decipher their calls, and until we do so, we won't get too far with suppositions, but we do know that they (various species) have different calls to warn of different threats. And so it goes with much else of their behaviour.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I've offered the most reasonable explanation already - boundary issues. Gorillas - the alpha male that is - are renowned for making a noise and such to demonstrate their superiority over all others and showing who is boss. It's a bit difficult to decipher their calls, and until we do so, we won't get too far with suppositions, but we do know that they (various species) have different calls to warn of different threats. And so it goes with much else of their behaviour.

When male gorillas show off their machismo, we recognize it.

Still waiting for a possible explanation of building rock piles by particular trees.