YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

[Brian2]

We dont know the angel's name in Exodus 3. Angels of God's Presence maybe? Also, dont forget, that angels can speak for God. They represent God in power and authority. God is talking through the angel.

So who created man? It was God who did. Angels (Elohim) where also there to create with God's help of course. And God said, Let us...... Who is us? In the orginal language it says, and the Elohim said.... God and the angels.

We know that the angels are the Elohim. Psalms 8 and many other verses. Man can be Elohim too in certain cases. The Judges were, Levi priests were, because they brought the word of God to the people. And Jesus was made a little lower than the Elohim or Angels.....

God spoke from the bush and said that He was Yahweh. God was really present in the bush.
I do not see angels speaking as if they are God, angels say that God said, or some such thing. It can be assumed that angels speak for God in such cases as the angel in the bush or it can be seen that the angel was truly Yahweh just as it shows us when it said Yahweh spoke from the bush.
How is it known that angels were there at the creation, creating?
"And the Elohim said" could refer to angels but there is nothing there about angels helping in the creating and it says that man was made in the image of God, not of angels.

 

[Brian2]

I can see you are still mixing up different event times and attributing wrongful roles and positions to God and Jesus.

The last part ... ‘On that day YAHWEH will become king over the earth - Yahweh alone, and his name alone.’

There is no mystery there. The prophet is referring to ‘other Gods’. The kingdom of HEAVEN is already GOD’s kingdom. He already rules there. It is the kingdom of earth (creation) that is in rebellious turmoil. Satan has inspired many in mankind to set up false Gods as rulers over earth - but the prophet says that at the end of time there will be only one GOD: Yahweh (‘The LORD’) who rules over earth.

Do not be confused. Jesus WILL BE the Ruler over creation. But remember that creation (earth) is WITHIN the kingdom of HEAVEN... so the ruler of heaven is ALSO the OVER-ruler of any kingdom within:
A son might be ‘ruler’ over his bedroom BUT dad is STILL RULER over the house that bedroom is in... and consequently ultimately Over-ruler of the son’s room.

You are mistaken when you say that heaven was not in rebellion.
You are mistaken when you say that the creation is earth, just the physical creation. Why do you say that, the angels and the heavens were not created in the beginning. (Gen 1:1)
Zech 14:8,9 says that Yahweh alone is King, just as Isa 44:24 says that Yahweh alone made the heaven and earth.
But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.
Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.

 

[Soapy]

The angels says that He is Yahweh. Yahweh sent Yahweh. Interesting.



John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
This passage along with others tell us that Jesus was not created and did not come into existence. He has always been and ALL things that came into existence came into existence though Him.

Isa 44:24
“This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
This passage tells us that Yahweh alone stretches out the heavens and earth.
Heb 1:10 And: “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment.…
These 2 together show us that Jesus is Yahweh who spreads out the heavens and earth.




If Jesus is Yahweh who spread out the heavens why is it not Jesus who formed man and breathed life into him?

I don’t get your thinking... in your mind then,

• The angels with Moses is Yahweh... and
• ‘the LORD’ who created all things is Jesus...
• THEREFORE... Jesus is the Angel with Moses!!
• But since angels are created beings, Jesus must be a created being
• But you say Jesus was not a created bring...

That’s a strange set of premises. Please read back what you said and see exactly that your mindset is incorrect on every aspect.

If Jesus is Yahweh who spread out the heavens why is it not Jesus who formed man and breathed life into him?

You cannot make false premises and then ask me to justify your error for you.

Jesus IS NOT Yahweh. The Father is Yahweh.

In fact, the verse in Isaiah that you quoted was one of the set of verses I was about to post as a new thread. It reflects the prophecy of birth and life of Jesus with the ‘birth’ and life of the nation of Israel. But more on that in the new post.

 

[Soapy]

You are mistaken when you say that heaven was not in rebellion.
You are mistaken when you say that the creation is earth, just the physical creation. Why do you say that, the angels and the heavens were created in the beginning. (Gen 1:1)
Zech 14:8,9 says that Yahweh alone is King, just as Isa 44:24 says that Yahweh alone made the heaven and earth.
But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.
Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.

Hi Brian2, I’m thinking that you are making huge basic, fundamental, and completely misinterpreted errors in your thoughts are:

You are mistaken when you say that heaven was not in rebellion.

The KINGDOM of GOD is not in question. It is the KINGDOM OF EARTH (creation) that was being fought over. ‘Satan’ was set as a STEWARD Angel over creation while it awaited the ‘KING’ from a human source to rule over it. ‘Satan’ imagined that he too, as Steward to the King-in-waiting over all humanity, should be worshipped, as GOD, the Creator of mankind, was worshipped, BECAUSE, he, Satan, had been involved in the CREATION of the First man. Hence the, ‘Let US create man in our image’.

GOD, himself, does not physically do things. He instructs his angels (or Angel, in thus case) and it is they (or him, Satan) that performs the physical act. (P.s. you will see, in time to come, and that time is now, that a designer, a creator, a medic,etc., will INSTRUCT a ROBOT, an automaton, a micro, macro, monstrously huge and powerful, devices to carry out the ACTUAL operation that comes from the mind of a person... imitating GOD... image of God! Are you not seeing this happening in the world: 3-Printers, tunnel borers, micro-devices in the body, robot floor cleaners, grass cutters, rescue systems, autonomous driving vehicles, Ha! Self-operating ‘Perseverance Rover’ on a totally different planet!...)

Satan created the BODY of the man, lifeless, inert, NOT LIVING,... and GOD’s creative, righteous and holy SPIRIT was used to ‘blow the breath of life into the ‘man’ (the body of the unliving man) such that the unliving man became a LIVING SOUL. Angels are not CREDITED to avoid them, too, becoming a target of worship! And all angels know and understand that, to accept worship, is to consign them-self to eternal destruction. Satan was so enamoured by the prospect that this rule SHOULD NOT APPLY TO HIM that it caused him to sin...

Your point! Satan certain CHALLENGED God about the RULERSHIP over CREATION. He did not CHALLENGE GOD about the RULERSHIP over HEAVEN!! Again, how is an ANGEL contending over the RULERSHIP of mankind if that ANGEL had no part in the CREATION of mankind? (‘Let us make man’! Good question???)

You are mistaken when you say that the creation is earth, just the physical creation. Why do you say that, the angels and the heavens were created in the beginning. (Gen 1:1)

why do I say what? That ‘comma’ makes your question ambiguous!
Anyway, I am saying what the Torah, the Old Testament, the Bible scriptures says. I wasn’t speaking of the Angels. We all know and agree that these are created beings. They are not PHYSICAL, the are SPIRIT Beings... I referenced the PHYSICAL WORLD as Creation... but really, I don’t know what you argument is. If just seems you are arguing just to say you posted something.

Zech 14:8,9 says that Yahweh alone is King, just as Isa 44:24 says that Yahweh alone made the heaven and earth.

The scriptures certainly say that YAHWEH alone created the heavanS and the earth.

Brian2, ‘heavenS’ (plural) is ‘INVISIBLE PLACES’ such as Sky, and celestial Space. This is NOT the same as the ‘SPIRIT REALM’ (Heaven - which is akin only by the fact that it is also an invisible realm.

So, please note the difference in text... perhaps check the Hebrew words... between ‘The Heavens’ (invisible places in the physical word) and ‘Heaven’ (the spirit abode of God and holy angels).

But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.
Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.

No!
It is ‘you’, or/and the trinity fallacy that says so. It has been proved that the verses were ALTERED by editing or addition or removal by trinitarian translators (JUST AS JESUS WARNS US in the last book and chapter of the book of Revelation).

And it is for this reason that you and trinity try to RETRO fix Jesus as YAHWEH in the Old Testament (which is very hard to alter) and - it doesn’t work!!! Throughout the Old Testament GOD, Yahweh, PROPHESIES about the coming messiah. How is “GOD, who cannot lie”, prophesies about a coming messiah if that messiah was ALREADY PRESENT from eternity. Being ‘present in the PLAN of God’ for a future event does not mean ‘Currently exists’ and doing things that God says he alone did! God would certainly be telling a lie if he said he alone did something and it turns out that THREE PERSONS did it... what does ‘alone’ mean, then???

Indeed, I have yet to receive a proper response to how Jesus BECOMES ruler over creation at the end of time when trinity says it was he who created it? And trinity says Jesus is Almighty God, Yahweh ....

Jesus, then, to trinity, as GOD, DEMOTES HIMSELF to become a LESSER RULER, ruler over creation, when he, by trinity, is a MONUMENTALLY GREATER ruler over Heaven...

So,’trinity GOD’ is split!!!
Jesus is god over creation BUT the Father and the trinity person of the Holy Spirit ARE NOT... yet they are ALL ‘Co-EQUAL’!

What does ‘co-Equal’, mean?

 

[moorea944]

God spoke from the bush and said that He was Yahweh. God was really present in the bush.
I do not see angels speaking as if they are God, angels say that God said, or some such thing. It can be assumed that angels speak for God in such cases as the angel in the bush or it can be seen that the angel was truly Yahweh just as it shows us when it said Yahweh spoke from the bush.
How is it known that angels were there at the creation, creating?
"And the Elohim said" could refer to angels but there is nothing there about angels helping in the creating and it says that man was made in the image of God, not of angels.

I totally disagree. We do know that it was an angel, Stephen even says it in Acts 7 when he's in the court system. This is God manifestation. God working through angels or someone else. God would never come down to earth, there is no reason for that at all. He has his angels, prophets, Jesus when he was here to carry out His plans.

Man was made in the image of the Elohim. But was does image and likeness mean? We have a mind that is capable of understanding spiritual things, animals cant do that. Scripture tells us that if we dont use our minds for spiritual things or the things of God we are just like the animals that perish... Christ was in the "image" of his father and ..... the likeness. We also try to manifest God in us too, though we fail, we still try. We want to be like God in a way that we can have a spiritual mind, not a carnal mind. (Romans 8). We know that Jesus is not God, he is the image or manifestation of God. He is everything that God represents. They are insynce together, Christ wants to do his father's will, not his own will.

Certain angels can speak for God as if He was there himself. Certain angels can also forgive sins. (Exodus 23). Apostles could do that to, we read that in Acts. In Psalms it says that the angels do God's work. What work do they do then?......

 

[moorea944]

You are mistaken when you say that heaven was not in rebellion.
You are mistaken when you say that the creation is earth, just the physical creation. Why do you say that, the angels and the heavens were created in the beginning. (Gen 1:1)
Zech 14:8,9 says that Yahweh alone is King, just as Isa 44:24 says that Yahweh alone made the heaven and earth.
But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.
Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.

[You are mistaken when you say that heaven was not in rebellion.]
Heaven is not or has ever been in rebellion. That's like saying that God is not in control of Heaven. That's horrible. And that totally degrades our Heavenly Father.

[But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.]
This has nothing to do with Jesus. This is David talking about how God created everything. How do you get Jesus in that verse?

[Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.]
No we're just talking stupid...... I know that your not reading that in the bible, so who's telling you that Jesus is Yahweh?..... Just curious...

 

[Soapy]

[You are mistaken when you say that heaven was not in rebellion.]
Heaven is not or has ever been in rebellion. That's like saying that God is not in control of Heaven. That's horrible. And that totally degrades our Heavenly Father.

[But we know that the Jesus did these things (Heb 1:10-12) and that is quote from Psalm 102:25 about Yahweh is being applied to Jesus.]
This has nothing to do with Jesus. This is David talking about how God created everything. How do you get Jesus in that verse?

[Jesus is and always has been Yahweh.]
No we're just talking stupid...... I know that your not reading that in the bible, so who's telling you that Jesus is Yahweh?..... Just curious...

Hi Moorea944, I think these persons are just having fun at our expense.

But remember thus:
Since you and I are speaking the truth, Satan is not going to allow us to continue. He will send his demon angels into the minds of receptive captives and get them to post infuriating nonsense in reply to our posts in the hope of frustrating us into giving up speaking. We can’t be stoned physically but remember that even slow drip drip of water can wear down a granite rock.

The posts that Brian2 makes are so full of dishonest, disingenuous nonsense that you and I quite rightly have to ask where Brian/ and his type are seeing their nonsense.

And not even common sense makes a difference. For instance, saying that Jesus is Yahweh. Clearly these posters do not fear the almighty God. It is this very reason that God says, “Do not take my name vain”:

• “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”

And ask them what is the beginning and the end of Jesus. What does scriptures say?

They will not answer - like stone and wood gods, they know not, They speak not.

We say, Jesus, the man anointed by God to do good, takes his reward as king over creation.

But if he was God all along like trinity people claim, why is he GRANTED to sit NEXT TO GOD, and be GRANTED the privilege of reconciling the creation to himself and then handing it over TO GOD! Only for GOD to later GRANT him to become RULER over creation - Creation he is supposed to have made all by himself... All by himself FROM THE Father, WITH the Holy Spirit.... ALONE!!

So, by trinity, Jesus, who is God over all things, becomes God over a physical created world that is far far less than the great kingdom of Heaven that he is supposed to be ruler over.... Do you see the endless recursion in their false belief:

• Trinity God is one yet God is three
• Trinity God is an inseparable unity
• Trinity God is immutable but one PART of him changes
• Trinity God becomes man and voluntarily losses his ability to be God - except that he lied because he remained fully God!!!!
• After dying - in which he DIDN’T die, GOD raised him up again... but God died???? Yet trinity christians commemorate GOD dying - and GOD raising up God again...!!!
• So God raised up God to Heaven and made God to sit next to THE ALMIGHTY GOD... Trinity says that only God could sit next to God... because these two ARE ONE three person God... that’s what they say!
• God, the little, God without power and authority, is GIVEN power and authority by God the big... (no mention of God the other!)
• After doing his duty, God the little, who is God the big now that he has god the bigs power and authority, hand that power and authority back to God the big who he is himself... he hands it back to himself, so trinity ideology goes. But in handing back the power and authority God the little, who is God the big, REMAINS god the big even after he has not got the power and authority of god the big.... weird!
• And finally, god is given by God the rulership of what he, god the little, CREATED... according to trinity.

Does that sound weird to you ... but that’s what trinity says.

Now ask them to set out their belief from beginning to end justifying using the scriptures - NOT TRINITY IDEOLOGY ... they cannot!!!

 

[Brian2]

I don’t get your thinking... in your mind then,

• The angels with Moses is Yahweh... and
• ‘the LORD’ who created all things is Jesus...
• THEREFORE... Jesus is the Angel with Moses!!
• But since angels are created beings, Jesus must be a created being
• But you say Jesus was not a created bring...

That’s a strange set of premises. Please read back what you said and see exactly that your mindset is incorrect on every aspect.

"Angel" just means "messenger". Yahweh spoke from the bush. Yahweh was there in the bush.
The angel/messenger was Yahweh.
I think you are misrepresenting what I said.

You cannot make false premises and then ask me to justify your error for you.

Jesus IS NOT Yahweh. The Father is Yahweh.

In fact, the verse in Isaiah that you quoted was one of the set of verses I was about to post as a new thread. It reflects the prophecy of birth and life of Jesus with the ‘birth’ and life of the nation of Israel. But more on that in the new post.

I showed my premise with the quote of Heb 1:10 where the heavens that earth are the works of Jesus hands. I could add John 1:3 to show that the prehuman Jesus did not have a beginning. Hebrews 1:10 is from Psalm 102:25 which is about God and Heb 1 says it is the Father speaking about the Son. Jesus must be Yahweh then. If the heavens are the works of the hands of Jesus and it is Yahweh alone who spreads them out (Isa 44:24, Job 38:9then Jesus is Yahweh.
I know the Father is Yahweh but you seem to ignore places like Heb 1:10 and others where quotes from the OT concerning Yahweh are applied to Jesus and which show that Jesus is also Yahweh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the God of Thomas at John 20:28.

 

[moorea944]

"Angel" just means "messenger". Yahweh spoke from the bush. Yahweh was there in the bush.
The angel/messenger was Yahweh.
I think you are misrepresenting what I said.




I showed my premise with the quote of Heb 1:10 where the heavens that earth are the works of Jesus hands. I could add John 1:3 to show that the prehuman Jesus did not have a beginning. Hebrews 1:10 is from Psalm 102:25 which is about God and Heb 1 says it is the Father speaking about the Son. Jesus must be Yahweh then. If the heavens are the works of the hands of Jesus and it is Yahweh alone who spreads them out (Isa 44:24, Job 38:9then Jesus is Yahweh.
I know the Father is Yahweh but you seem to ignore places like Heb 1:10 and others where quotes from the OT concerning Yahweh are applied to Jesus and which show that Jesus is also Yahweh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the God of Thomas at John 20:28.

So why does everyone else in the bible says it was an angel.... Why are you saying that it was God himself? Think about what your saying..
Acts 7v30 "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush."

God does not come down to earth, there is no reason for that. He has his angels that speak for him. No one can see God and live....... And no one has ever seen God.....

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yhwh is the overall ‘Shepherd’, and the Messiah, is the delegated ‘Shepherd’.

So, you are claiming that there are two eternal shepherds; one in heaven, and one on earth.

Psalm 110:1. 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool'.

Psalm 110 is a Psalm of David. He is the writer, and, therefore, we know that David has a 'Lord' who stands between him and the 'LORD', the Father. The one that stands between David and the LORD is the 'one shepherd' of the earthly flock, as Ezekiel mentions.

Can you not see that to claim that Jesus Christ is not God is to cut him off from the Father. The Son is not from the Father if he is not God. 'My servant David' is only the 'one shepherd' because he came from God.

 

[Soapy]

"Angel" just means "messenger". Yahweh spoke from the bush. Yahweh was there in the bush.
The angel/messenger was Yahweh.
I think you are misrepresenting what I said.

Moorea944 has given you the response to this: The speaker was an Angel sent by God speaking on behalf of God.

And yes, I know what ‘Angel’ means. With your definition, though, you are saying that GOD sent himself!!! That God was his own messenger.

I showed my premise with the quote of Heb 1:10 where the heavens that earth are the works of Jesus hands. I could add John 1:3 to show that the prehuman Jesus did not have a beginning. Hebrews 1:10 is from Psalm 102:25 which is about God and Heb 1 says it is the Father speaking about the Son. Jesus must be Yahweh then. If the heavens are the works of the hands of Jesus and it is Yahweh alone who spreads them out (Isa 44:24, Job 38:9then Jesus is Yahweh.
I know the Father is Yahweh but you seem to ignore places like Heb 1:10 and others where quotes from the OT concerning Yahweh are applied to Jesus and which show that Jesus is also Yahweh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the God of Thomas at John 20:28.

I say to you that you have been taking yes by Trinity Trollop (sorry for the rudeness but if is true!).

John 1:1-3 IS NOT speaking about Jesus. It is speaking about ‘the word of God’. The capitalisation of ‘Word of God’ is purposely done by the trinitarian translators. The word of God is simply that, God’s word.

Why can you not see that if Jesus is GOD’s Word then Jesus CANNOT BE GOD. So this posses a dilemma for trinity. In saying that Jesus is the word of God it then has the problem of saying how the word BECAME FLESH. Because, for sure, ‘JESUS’ was not born yet.

Nor was he ‘SON OF GOD’ prior to being anointed BY GOD... because how can there be a SON ‘OF GOD’ when ‘GOD’ is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’?

Also, was it not GOD (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, by trinity!!) who said to JESUS:

• “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrew 5:5)

This is an ADOPTION statement!!

Remember that the Angel, Gabriel, told the Virgin Mary that:

• “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

You see the FUTURE title...

The Virgin will deliver a child from an egg (inert, unliving, lifeless) ENLIVENED by the Holy Spirit of God. Wow, just like the lifeless, unliving, inert BODY of Adam was ENLIVENED by the Holy Spirit of God. THEREFORE, the Living Soul resulting from the event WILL BE HOLY, Son of God (Luke 3:38).

How wonderful to see the truth and sense in the scriptures. Cohesive and unsullied by falsehoods.

What a mess trinity is. It is no wonder each trinitarian denies what another trinitarian says - because each sees the nonsense that the other speaks.

 

[Soapy]

So, you are claiming that there are two eternal shepherds; one in heaven, and one on earth.

Psalm 110:1. 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool'.

Psalm 110 is a Psalm of David. He is the writer, and, therefore, we know that David has a 'Lord' who stands between him and the 'LORD', the Father. The one that stands between David and the LORD is the 'one shepherd' of the earthly flock, as Ezekiel mentions.

Can you not see that to claim that Jesus Christ is not God is to cut him off from the Father. The Son is not from the Father if he is not God. 'My servant David' is only the 'one shepherd' because he came from God.

Redemptionsong, I know you do not understand the scriptures. What you are saying is only what someone else has told you and you cannot work out fur yourself that what they are telling you is not true.

It is that when you come across a trinity anomaly -which is constantly - you just dismiss it or delve into a fallacy to cover it.

You should stop and try to put the WHOLE of the scripture narratives together and then you will see that trinity DOES NOT FIT.

A ‘Shepherd’ is ANYONE who LEADS a person of groups of people in a living, caring, righteous, and sinless way towards a positive goal or place of rest.
To say there are more than one shepherd us to misunderstand what a shepherd is... and that there AS MANY SHEPHERDS in context as there are persons who PERFORM as stated above.

Yes, many shepherds (for instance):

• GOD is a shepherd of the people of Israel
• Moses was the Shepherd of the children of Israel in the wilderness
• Joshua was the Shepherd of the Israelites into the promised land
• God is the shepherd of Jesus when Jesus is His sheep (Lamb led to the slaughter)
• Jesus is the Shepherd of the people who will be led into the promised new world

For instance, trinity tells you that Psalm 110:1 is DAVID talking about Jesus as ‘My lord’....

Oh dear, that’s trinity talking. DAVID did not know of a ‘Lord’ above himself. He knew and believed in THE ‘LORD’ (‘YHWH’). His God. David did not believe in anyone in a higher ranking order to call his ‘Lord’, his ‘Master’!

God, the ‘LORD’, told David that in time to come the MESSIAH would be one of his ‘children’. But this was not linked to such an event.

In fact, the truth is that David was referring to HIMSELF as ‘My Lord’, ‘Me’.

David was saying:

• “The LORD said unto ME, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

It was (and STILL IS) very common to call someone of notability, ‘My Lord’ (‘the Boss’, in contemporary times)

• ‘YHWH said to me, “Sit at my right hand...”’

This means, ‘Have all faith in me, your God, YHWH,’.

• ‘... until I make your enemies your footstool’

Means, ‘Rest your feet on the necks (or heads) of your adversaries’

It was common in the days of King David to have the defeated enemies lie down in front of the conquering king - defeated Kings would offer their necks or heads as ‘footstools’ for the conquering king... positions of Submission and humiliation.

Anyone trying to say that ‘My Lord’ refers to anyone other than David, himself, would ALSO have to justify who, ‘My Lord’ is when the verse about David is also applied to Jesus:

• ‘The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet."' (Matthew 22:44)

And this verse:

• “Speaking by the Holy Spirit, David himself declared: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet."' (Mark 12:36)

speaks of David ‘SPEAKING BY the Holy Spirit’. This explains why David speaks of himself in the third person (‘my Lord’, instead of just ‘me’).

 

[Brian2]

So why does everyone else in the bible says it was an angel.... Why are you saying that it was God himself? Think about what your saying..
Acts 7v30 "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush."

God does not come down to earth, there is no reason for that. He has his angels that speak for him. No one can see God and live....... And no one has ever seen God.....

Acts 7:30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: 32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’ Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.

I imagine Stephen had not had time to consider whom it might be in the bush. God's voice came from the bush and it said that the place was holy ground,,,,,,,,,,not because a created angel was there.
Ex 24:10and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.
I also wonder whom it was that the elders of Israel saw at this incident.

 

[Brian2]

Moorea944 has given you the response to this: The speaker was an Angel sent by God speaking on behalf of God.

And yes, I know what ‘Angel’ means. With your definition, though, you are saying that GOD sent himself!!! That God was his own messenger.

There are a number of places where The Angel of the Lord comes in the OT and could be the prehuman Jesus. The Father sends the Son. It is not a case of God sending Himself. You have listened to anti trinitarian propaganda about what the trinity means for too long.

I say to you that you have been taking yes by Trinity Trollop (sorry for the rudeness but if is true!).

John 1:1-3 IS NOT speaking about Jesus. It is speaking about ‘the word of God’. The capitalisation of ‘Word of God’ is purposely done by the trinitarian translators. The word of God is simply that, God’s word.

Why can you not see that if Jesus is GOD’s Word then Jesus CANNOT BE GOD. So this posses a dilemma for trinity. In saying that Jesus is the word of God it then has the problem of saying how the word BECAME FLESH. Because, for sure, ‘JESUS’ was not born yet.

Is it any different for you who also should explain how the word became flesh and dwelt amongst the Jews?
I would think it is more of a problem for you.
It is hard to explain fully what is meant by the "word" but it is plain in scripture that this Word was alive and a being before becoming a man. Have you not read Phil 2.

Nor was he ‘SON OF GOD’ prior to being anointed BY GOD... because how can there be a SON ‘OF GOD’ when ‘GOD’ is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’?

He is the Son of the only true God, the Father. He has always been with and in the Father. Hence John 1:1 says in the beginning the Word was with God. The beginning is the start of all creation, spiritual and physical and there was not before that point because that is when time began. The Word had no beginning and so was there when all there was was God. And yes the Word was a being (Phil 2).

Also, was it not GOD (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, by trinity!!) who said to JESUS:

• “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrew 5:5)

This is an ADOPTION statement!!

Remember that the Angel, Gabriel, told the Virgin Mary that:

• “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

You see the FUTURE title...

The Virgin will deliver a child from an egg (inert, unliving, lifeless) ENLIVENED by the Holy Spirit of God. Wow, just like the lifeless, unliving, inert BODY of Adam was ENLIVENED by the Holy Spirit of God. THEREFORE, the Living Soul resulting from the event WILL BE HOLY, Son of God (Luke 3:38).

It was the Father, the only true God, who said to Jesus what it in Psalm 2 (Heb 5:5)
The Son is in the Father and was begotten as a man.
Acts 13:33 He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
Interesting that it is about the resurrection. But we know that Jesus was the Son of God while on earth, before His resurrection. We also know He did not have any human father but only the Most High. He came down from heaven and was Christ the Lord even as a child. (Luke 2:11)
His essential nature has not changed every. (Heb 13:8) He has always had the nature of His Father.

What a mess trinity is. It is no wonder each trinitarian denies what another trinitarian says - because each sees the nonsense that the other speaks.

We each see what nonsense it is to say that Jesus was created, and each of us has a different way of explaining the same thing. Some know more and some less, and some explain better than others and anti trinitarian (just like sceptics) pick holes in what they are told.

 

[moorea944]

Acts 7:30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: 32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’ Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.

I imagine Stephen had not had time to consider whom it might be in the bush. God's voice came from the bush and it said that the place was holy ground,,,,,,,,,,not because a created angel was there.
Ex 24:10and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.
I also wonder whom it was that the elders of Israel saw at this incident.

[I imagine Stephen had not had time to consider whom it might be in the bush. God's voice came from the bush and it said that the place was holy ground,,,,,,,,,,not because a created angel was there.]
Your kidding me, right?.....

[Ex 24:10and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.
I also wonder whom it was that the elders of Israel saw at this incident.]

You can see God through an angel. Just like on how Jesus said if you've seen me, you have seen my father. Verse 10 says that they saw the Elohim of Israel, in the org language. Again.... angels represent Yahweh. They can speak for him as if he was speaking.

So your version is saying that God comes down from Heaven? Not sure what your really saying here......

 

[Redemptionsong]

Redemptionsong, I know you do not understand the scriptures. What you are saying is only what someone else has told you and you cannot work out fur yourself that what they are telling you is not true.

It is that when you come across a trinity anomaly -which is constantly - you just dismiss it or delve into a fallacy to cover it.

You should stop and try to put the WHOLE of the scripture narratives together and then you will see that trinity DOES NOT FIT.

A ‘Shepherd’ is ANYONE who LEADS a person of groups of people in a living, caring, righteous, and sinless way towards a positive goal or place of rest.
To say there are more than one shepherd us to misunderstand what a shepherd is... and that there AS MANY SHEPHERDS in context as there are persons who PERFORM as stated above.

Yes, many shepherds (for instance):

• GOD is a shepherd of the people of Israel
• Moses was the Shepherd of the children of Israel in the wilderness
• Joshua was the Shepherd of the Israelites into the promised land
• God is the shepherd of Jesus when Jesus is His sheep (Lamb led to the slaughter)
• Jesus is the Shepherd of the people who will be led into the promised new world

For instance, trinity tells you that Psalm 110:1 is DAVID talking about Jesus as ‘My lord’....

Oh dear, that’s trinity talking. DAVID did not know of a ‘Lord’ above himself. He knew and believed in THE ‘LORD’ (‘YHWH’). His God. David did not believe in anyone in a higher ranking order to call his ‘Lord’, his ‘Master’!

God, the ‘LORD’, told David that in time to come the MESSIAH would be one of his ‘children’. But this was not linked to such an event.

In fact, the truth is that David was referring to HIMSELF as ‘My Lord’, ‘Me’.

David was saying:

• “The LORD said unto ME, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”

It was (and STILL IS) very common to call someone of notability, ‘My Lord’ (‘the Boss’, in contemporary times)

• ‘YHWH said to me, “Sit at my right hand...”’

This means, ‘Have all faith in me, your God, YHWH,’.

• ‘... until I make your enemies your footstool’

Means, ‘Rest your feet on the necks (or heads) of your adversaries’

It was common in the days of King David to have the defeated enemies lie down in front of the conquering king - defeated Kings would offer their necks or heads as ‘footstools’ for the conquering king... positions of Submission and humiliation.

Anyone trying to say that ‘My Lord’ refers to anyone other than David, himself, would ALSO have to justify who, ‘My Lord’ is when the verse about David is also applied to Jesus:

• ‘The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet."' (Matthew 22:44)

And this verse:

• “Speaking by the Holy Spirit, David himself declared: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet."' (Mark 12:36)

speaks of David ‘SPEAKING BY the Holy Spirit’. This explains why David speaks of himself in the third person (‘my Lord’, instead of just ‘me’).

What a terrible distortion of scripture!

Look again at Matthew 22:43-45. 'He [Jesus] saith unto them [the Pharisees] , How then doth David in spirit call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord]
The LORD ['Jehovah' - see Psalm 110:1] said unto my Lord [Adonai - my Lord], Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?'
If David then call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord], how is he his son? [How can the Messiah, Jesus Christ, be the son of David (verse 42) if the Messiah is David's 'Lord'?]

So, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that David had a Lord, and that the Lord had a LORD. The Lord is the Son of God, the one true mediator, the Messiah, and the LORD is his Father. This is evidence that the SON came from God the FATHER, just as trinitarians claim.

YOUR claim, that Jesus was a MAN but NOT GOD is proved wrong in this passage of scripture.


I like the scriptures to speak for themselves.

In Ezekiel 34:2, it says, 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?'

The reason that God set up ONE shepherd [Ezekiel 34:23], 'my servant David', was because the shepherds of Israel were not righteous. Why do you think Jesus calls himself 'the good shepherd'? [John 10:14] Jesus Christ is the ONLY good shepherd of Israel. All other shepherds, to be worthy, must follow in his footsteps.

 

[moorea944]

What a terrible distortion of scripture!

Look again at Matthew 22:43-45. 'He [Jesus] saith unto them [the Pharisees] , How then doth David in spirit call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord]
The LORD ['Jehovah' - see Psalm 110:1] said unto my Lord [Adonai - my Lord], Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?'
If David then call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord], how is he his son? [How can the Messiah, Jesus Christ, be the son of David (verse 42) if the Messiah is David's 'Lord'?]

So, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that David had a Lord, and that the Lord had a LORD. The Lord is the Son of God, the one true mediator, the Messiah, and the LORD is his Father. This is evidence that the SON came from God the FATHER, just as trinitarians claim.

YOUR claim, that Jesus was a MAN but NOT GOD is proved wrong in this passage of scripture.


I like the scriptures to speak for themselves.

In Ezekiel 34:2, it says, 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?'

The reason that God set up ONE shepherd [Ezekiel 34:23], 'my servant David', was because the shepherds of Israel were not righteous. Why do you think Jesus calls himself 'the good shepherd'? [John 10:14] Jesus Christ is the ONLY good shepherd of Israel. All other shepherds, to be worthy, must follow in his footsteps.

[Look again at Matthew 22:43-45. 'He [Jesus] saith unto them [the Pharisees] , How then doth David in spirit call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord]]
First of all, that is a future prophecy. That has not happened yet.

[If David then call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord], how is he his son? [How can the Messiah, Jesus Christ, be the son of David (verse 42) if the Messiah is David's 'Lord'?]]
First of all, the bible says that Jesus is the son of David, if your not understanding that I dont know what to tell you. People didnt understand that saying, I guess you dont either....

[So, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that David had a Lord, and that the Lord had a LORD. The Lord is the Son of God, the one true mediator, the Messiah, and the LORD is his Father. This is evidence that the SON came from God the FATHER, just as trinitarians claim.]
Again, your not understanding what that meant. Your going into the bible already with a trinitarian mindset. Jesus is from God, yes, but he was born. Just like on how it says that John was sent from God. So does that mean that John was always in heaven? No, of course not......

[YOUR claim, that Jesus was a MAN but NOT GOD is proved wrong in this passage of scripture.]
Actually it proves that your wrong. The bible knows nothing of a trinitarian God or a coming Messiah that was already here. Read Deut 18 and 2 Sam 7. That will tell you what Moses and David was told about a coming Messiah.

You have to remember that the trinity was put into religion with Constantine in 325AD. No one, and I mean no one in the OT believed in the trinity that is for sure!! You want to talk to a Jew about the trinity? God's chosen people. You think they believe in a trinitarian God?

 

[Soapy]

What a terrible distortion of scripture!

Look again at Matthew 22:43-45. 'He [Jesus] saith unto them [the Pharisees] , How then doth David in spirit call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord]
The LORD ['Jehovah' - see Psalm 110:1] said unto my Lord [Adonai - my Lord], Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?'
If David then call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord], how is he his son? [How can the Messiah, Jesus Christ, be the son of David (verse 42) if the Messiah is David's 'Lord'?]

So, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that David had a Lord, and that the Lord had a LORD. The Lord is the Son of God, the one true mediator, the Messiah, and the LORD is his Father. This is evidence that the SON came from God the FATHER, just as trinitarians claim.

YOUR claim, that Jesus was a MAN but NOT GOD is proved wrong in this passage of scripture.


I like the scriptures to speak for themselves.

In Ezekiel 34:2, it says, 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?'

The reason that God set up ONE shepherd [Ezekiel 34:23], 'my servant David', was because the shepherds of Israel were not righteous. Why do you think Jesus calls himself 'the good shepherd'? [John 10:14] Jesus Christ is the ONLY good shepherd of Israel. All other shepherds, to be worthy, must follow in his footsteps.

Redemptionsong, please explain the reason and purpose for the verse in Matthew (Matthew 22:43-45).

It seems random, spurious, pointless. What did it achieve?

As for trinity... if David called the messiah, ‘Lord’, then that destroys the trinitarian belief that the messiah is God.

David, of all people, FIRMLY believed that God was the ONLY GOD he and his nation should worship. Therefore, it is impossible for him to be calling ANOTHER PERSON (his Son-in-time-to-come) ‘God’.

Indeed, if you are right, GOD said to David that DAVID’s MASTER was to .... the rest...

So GOD does not call the messiah, ‘God’.

So, in fact, you’ve caught yourself in your own trap.

 

[Redemptionsong]

[Look again at Matthew 22:43-45. 'He [Jesus] saith unto them [the Pharisees] , How then doth David in spirit call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord]]
First of all, that is a future prophecy. That has not happened yet.

[If David then call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord], how is he his son? [How can the Messiah, Jesus Christ, be the son of David (verse 42) if the Messiah is David's 'Lord'?]]
First of all, the bible says that Jesus is the son of David, if your not understanding that I dont know what to tell you. People didnt understand that saying, I guess you dont either....

[So, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that David had a Lord, and that the Lord had a LORD. The Lord is the Son of God, the one true mediator, the Messiah, and the LORD is his Father. This is evidence that the SON came from God the FATHER, just as trinitarians claim.]
Again, your not understanding what that meant. Your going into the bible already with a trinitarian mindset. Jesus is from God, yes, but he was born. Just like on how it says that John was sent from God. So does that mean that John was always in heaven? No, of course not......

[YOUR claim, that Jesus was a MAN but NOT GOD is proved wrong in this passage of scripture.]
Actually it proves that your wrong. The bible knows nothing of a trinitarian God or a coming Messiah that was already here. Read Deut 18 and 2 Sam 7. That will tell you what Moses and David was told about a coming Messiah.

You have to remember that the trinity was put into religion with Constantine in 325AD. No one, and I mean no one in the OT believed in the trinity that is for sure!! You want to talk to a Jew about the trinity? God's chosen people. You think they believe in a trinitarian God?

The Trinitarian position is that, as the Son of Man and Son of God, Jesus Christ is both fully man and fully God whilst dwelling on earth. The Unitarian position, held by those who deny the deity of Christ, is that Jesus was fully man but not fully God. This is the position both you and Soapy hold.

Scripture proves the position you hold to be false. This is because Jesus was both the Son of David and the Son of God. His genealogy proves this to be the case. Jesus' mother, Mary, was betrothed to Joseph, which allows for the royal line of descent; but the fact that Joseph was not Jesus' natural Father means that Jesus was, in reality, the Son of God.

When we read Matthew 22, we find that the Pharisees are calling the Messiah the 'son of David', and rightly so. But Jesus knows that the Messiah is BOTH the Son of man and the Son of God! So he proves his case by referring the Pharisees to Psalm 110:1, where David is shown to be calling the Messiah 'Lord' (Adonai).

Jesus came as the Suffering Servant, and received his anointing as king. He was not given his throne until after the ascension, in heaven. However, he is king NOW! He will also return as King of Kings.

A believer can only enter God's kingdom if that kingdom exists. Christ's dominion has begun, but has not, as yet, reached its completion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Redemptionsong, please explain the reason and purpose for the verse in Matthew (Matthew 22:43-45).

It seems random, spurious, pointless. What did it achieve?

As for trinity... if David called the messiah, ‘Lord’, then that destroys the trinitarian belief that the messiah is God.

David, of all people, FIRMLY believed that God was the ONLY GOD he and his nation should worship. Therefore, it is impossible for him to be calling ANOTHER PERSON (his Son-in-time-to-come) ‘God’.

Indeed, if you are right, GOD said to David that DAVID’s MASTER was to .... the rest...

So GOD does not call the messiah, ‘God’.

So, in fact, you’ve caught yourself in your own trap.

The problem with this argument is that it overlooks the possibility that Jesus Christ was BOTH a man and God! And that is what the Messiah is on earth.

The hierarchy is simple. Man - Mediator (man and God) - God.