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Yeshua / Jesus Vs Saul / Paul Points

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wizanda, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Before we start this, lets make one thing clear, John is made up and Simon was called a stone (peter) for a reason; so neither can be used to argue this case. ;)

    This article is old, so admittingly there are lots of things that could be improved on, and overall far more points than this; so feel free to add any you know of. :innocent:

    1. Christ said he came to fulfill the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.

    2. Christ said that we are judged by the commandments; Paul said we are free of them, if we are in Christ.

    3. Christ said that we should not judge, Paul said that the spiritual may judge and should not be judged.

    4. Christ said that God is the judge, Paul said Christ is.

    5. Christ said that the inheritance is from God and they killed him to try and steal it, as in the parable of the vine dresser; Paul said that we have an inheritance because of Christ's death.

    6. Christ said not to sacrifice the innocent, Paul praised the fact that Christ died.

    7. Christ said that God is the lord of the living; Paul said that we should remain with Christ in death.

    8. Christ showed that reincarnation happens, as he said John was Elijah, Paul said we only live once.

    9. Christ said God is spirit, Paul said Christ is the image of God; breaking the second commandment.

    10. Christ said he was sent and was a servant and a son, Paul said Christ is equal to God and even said he was God.

    11. Christ said to worship God, Paul said to worship Christ.

    12. Christ said to be one in God, Paul said to be one body in Christ.

    13. Christ said that faith in God is powerful; Paul said that faith is "the faith' and so turning its meaning in to church attendance.

    14. Christ showed and said to have faith in God; Paul said have faith in Christ.

    15. Christ said have one father, Paul said he had begotten people in Christ so making him a father to them.

    16. Christ said that we should want of nothing and trust in God, giving up wealth and helping the poor after his death, 3 thousand people were practicing this. Paul ended this and then said if we don't work we don't eat, and even went back to work while preaching him self.

    17. Christ said it will be hard for a rich man to enter heaven; Paul aspired to have wealth and for two years he rented his own house.

    18. Christ said we have forgiveness for forgiving others; Paul said we have forgiveness in Christ.

    19. Christ said we are justified by our words, Paul said we are justified by Christ.

    20. Christ said God would show mercy to the merciful, Paul said we have mercy in Christ.

    21. Christ said to be like children to enter heaven; Paul said not to be like children.

    22. Christ said to be the light of the world and to show the bad through love how to be good, Paul said to have nothing to do with bad people and push them out.

    23. Christ and the Bible said wisdom will make you shine in heaven, and he said that we should increase the talents we are born with; Paul said to be simple in Christ.

    24. Christ said, if you help collect in the harvest (works) you will receive your reward, Paul said it is not by works but by faith in Christ alone.

    25. Christ said don't make vain repetition in prayers; Paul established it as a way to pray, through the wording he used and the Pharisee ways he showed.

    26. Christ said hate self and love through God's love, then this is unconditional, Paul said who doesn't love them self's.

    27. Christ said women can be sisters (equal), Paul said they should remain lower.

    28. Christ said we should remember him through the sharing of bread (start of acts, only bread); Paul said to remember him through wine.

    29. Christ said that his disciples should only drink water; Paul made the drinking of wine (communion) a religious Ritual.

    30. Christ clearly showed and said do not worry about being accepted by man, Paul said to be accepted by many.

    31. Christ said take up your cross and follow me, as the cross was a symbol in many cultures for God. Paul turned the cross into only a symbol of Christ's death, and caused it to become idolatry.

    32. Christ said he came to bring division, meaning that we all follow God; Paul said Christ came to bring peace.

    33. Christ said God is the teacher, Paul said him self is a teacher.

    34. Christ warned of those who say the time is near, Paul preached the time is near.

    35. Christ said invite the poor to your house and feed the hungry, Paul said let the hungry eat at home, and showed to only invite friends for food.

    36. Christ says salvation comes from repentance, Paul said Salvation comes from the death of Christ.
     
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  2. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    So your first method of debate is ad hominem, will keep that in mind; yet clearly this is a scriptural debate... So if you're not aware of the scriptures in which to refute the statements, will remember not to have much regard for your posts from now on; as clearly when a finger points, 3 fingers point back at yourself. ;)
     
    #3 wizanda, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
  4. Simplelogic

    Simplelogic Well-Known Member

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    I love the list and agree with almost everything!

    I don't agree with number 8 though. It seems evident that Yeshua was not literally Elijah himself.
     
  5. Simplelogic

    Simplelogic Well-Known Member

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    Outhouse…you seem to spend a lot of time on threads simply "discrediting" sources. Not sure why you feel so compelled to consistently hunt down threads for the sole purpose of discrediting them. Especially with comments like the one above. Who has the right to determine a sources absolute credibility?? You? Should not logic and reason be the foundation for intellectual discussion? Don't you feel like people should read for themselves to determine wether a source is "credible" or not? Or is that your job to protect them?

    Back on the ignore list you go.
     
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  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    If you look at Gilgul, its clear reincarnation is accepted in Jewish thinking; thus John the baptist came with the spirit of Elijah, thus fulfilling the needed prophesies. ;)
     
  7. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    You seem to spend time talking about Paul when you know nothing about him, and backing those who know less then you.


    You cannot see your errors or others due to your lack of education here.
     
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  8. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Yes I do, I actually have an education on these topics, and on Paul I have a very good grasp on what is and what is not up for debate.

    No. You need a real education to understand Paul, without it your blind and keep tripping over yourself.

    Oh thank you. Believe me, you add nothing of value less bias and misunderstandings to the topic of Paul.
     
    #8 outhouse, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
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  9. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    No it is a gross misunderstanding of things biblical. Im guessing you possess zero education, correct? You have never taken one single class in anything biblical correct?

    You dont even follow one credible scholar correct?

    Same applies for simplelogic as well im sure.

    Yet you make the most inane and completely absurd comments like "John is made up" You are lost here and are asking others to jump on your boat and ride along with you in bias and a complete misunderstanding of all things biblical.

    Your link is doing nothing more them proselytizing your biased imagination and lack of understanding.
     
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  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The links to our site are provided to make a full case for the statements made. So not lost in the slightest, and have multiple scriptures to back up this case; guess you don't? o_O
     
  11. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Quote mining out of context has never been an honest or credible way to research.

    So I do have scripture in context that shows how severe your misunderstanding is.




    Full case of bias and misinformation is all I see.


    So you have never taken a single class on any aspect of the NT or Paul have you?
     
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  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Not took any classes... So maybe with your experience; you can explain where these points are in error, using scripture to substantiate your case? ;)
     
  13. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Your website promotes drug use. Im not sure explaining anything will sink in, as you seem to be just happy wallowing in bias and misunderstandings.

    Your so far "out there" I think anything I say would only effect fantasy and imagination.
     
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  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    So can we take that as an answer then, that you're incapable of arguing this case based on scriptural evidence? lol! :)
     
  15. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Your website promotes drug use. Im not sure explaining anything will sink in, as you seem to be just happy wallowing in bias and misunderstandings.
    Your so far "out there" I think anything I say would only effect fantasy and imagination.
     
  16. Simplelogic

    Simplelogic Well-Known Member

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    I would ignore outhouse if I were you.
     
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  17. Simplelogic

    Simplelogic Well-Known Member

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    Riiiiight. Unless we get a rubber stamp from some false religious institution we can't have valid opinions? Ha!
     
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  18. LegionOnomaMoi

    LegionOnomaMoi Veteran Member
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    This:
    "One of the clearest points, is that the vocabulary is totally different"
    is totally incorrect. John's Greek is closer to Luke or Matthew than is Mark's, despite the fact that both used Mark.

    "where as Yeshua warned “do not go after those who say “I Am” (Ego I-Mee) pretending to be Yeshua”; we find that repeatedly used within John."

    We find it Matthew too (e.g., "καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς, Θαρσεῖτε, ἐγώ εἰμι· μὴ φοβεῖσθε"; It is also Jesus' response to Mark 14.62), but what Matthew and Mark says about the warning isn't against those who say ego eimi but
    πολλοὶ γὰρ ἐλεύσονται ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματί μου λέγοντες, Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ Χριστός, καὶ πολλοὺς πλανήσουσιν/"polloi gar eleusontai epi to onomati mou legontes, "Ego eimi ho Christos, kai pollous planesousin"

    ["For many will come in my name saying "I am the Christ", and [these] many will deceive[you] "]

    Basically all of the reasons for rejecting John in your link have analogues in the synoptics.

    Your contrasts aren't between what Jesus said vs. what Paul said. They are contrasts between what Jesus is reported to have said and what Paul wrote, from which you have excluded John because of the differences between it and the three inter-dependent gospels. This doesn't seem like a very good method for a believer (it's obviously flawed for an historian, but that's irrelevant here) to approach trying to understand what Jesus' message was and its relation to Paul's.
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    We're not comparing who was good at writing Greek; we know that Luke is said to be a physician and John in my assessment was most likely a Pharisee; which implied both had a perfect grasp of writing Koine Greek.

    What we are comparing is the vocabulary of Yeshua; he talks entirely differently and it doesn't match his theology in multiple other accounts, thus implying it isn't his words.

    This is off topic btw, did start one on John Vs Yeshua as well.... This is to compare the letters of Paul. ;)
    The statement you've put from Mark, doesn't match the exact same statements in Matthew and Luke, thus by more than one witness that testimony doesn't stand.

    Trying to find odd discrepancies, where the gospel writers have stated 'ego i-mee'; isn't the same as comparing the whole of the gospel of John, where it has been purposely implied, to make him sound like he is claiming to be something he never stated elsewhere.
    If it was so important and prominent in his ministry, surely these 7x "I am" statements would be included in the synoptic gospels. o_O
    As a historian, theologian, etc it is far more accurate to first establish an authors character, before proceeding to talk about their beliefs. If Yeshua didn't state the things within John and they are made up, it would be pointless using them as evidence to substantiate his case. :rolleyes:
    Considering we've not got an exact statement of what Yeshua stated by himself; 3 witnesses together as one is the closest testimony we're going to get. :innocent:
     
  20. Simplelogic

    Simplelogic Well-Known Member

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    I AM is not one of God's names:

    "As far back as I can remember, I heard in Sunday-school, church services, and Bible studies that one of God's names is "I Am". This assumption has been driven home over and over again in Biblical documentaries and even popular movies... like The Ten Commandments. The belief that one of God's names is "I Am" is firmly entrenched in both Judaism and Christianity. The average Christian and Jew doesn't realize that there is only one place in the Bible where it appears that YHWH called Himself "I Am". It is in the scene of Moses and the burning bush. God told Moses to take off his shoes, and then He introduced Himself to Moses.

    Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when YHWH saw that he turned aside to look, He called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." Moreover He said, "I am the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:3-6

    God then tells Moses that He wants him to go to Egypt and bring His people out of bondage. Then Moses speaks and says,

    "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "I Am Who I Am." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I Am has sent me to you.'" Exodus 3:13,14

    When someone is trying to prove that "I Am" is one of God's names, they seldom (if ever) continue reading the text. God goes on to say these words,

    Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations." Exodus 3:15

    A little later in the same scene, God says these words,

    "that they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you." Exodus 4:5

    Nowhere else in this scene does God ever call Himself, "I Am". In fact, nowhere else in the Bible is God referred to as I Am. Moses never does record that he went to the children of Israel and said, "I Am has sent me to you". But over and over again it is recorded that others referred to God as, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." The notion that God had called Himself I Am is the product of a simple misunderstanding that has become a kind of superstitious part of the collective Christian (as well as Jewish) soul... similar to the way the name "Jesus" has become a part of the Christian soul. (If you are not aware of how far off this is, please see the article; How the name Yeshua became Jesus.) What YHWH meant when He appeared to have called Himself I Am is this amplified version of the conversation:

    Then Moss said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "I am Who I am! We've already determined that I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." And He said , "And this that We've determined is what you shall say to the children of Israel... concerning Who I am that has 'sent me to you'." ..."Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations."

    No, I Am never was one of God's names. God could not have been more specific or emphatic about how He wanted to be known to Israel."

    Did YHWH say His name was
     
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