Would it change anything?

[sandy whitelinger]

Plenty...

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. NIV

We have it all- NOW! Notice the tense!

Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. 18 If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. 19 Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. NIV

Here we have it handed to us!

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. NIV

Again, notice the tense of "brought". We are in the Kingdom of heaven. If heaven is communion with God, then I have it RIGHT NOW.

I think you are confusing the Kingdom of Heaven which is a physical place with the Kingdom of God which is a spiritual experience.
Heaven is a physical place which is not here on earth.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Plenty...

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. NIV

We have it all- NOW! Notice the tense!

Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. 18 If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. 19 Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. NIV

Here we have it handed to us!

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. NIV

Again, notice the tense of "brought". We are in the Kingdom of heaven. If heaven is communion with God, then I have it RIGHT NOW.

Hey Pete,

Tense in Greek is not final like in English. In English grammar, the past tense is passed, but in Greek the past tense can be and often is used for expressing certainty in the future. This is particularly useful for describing the future activity of God - it is so certain that God has already done it. Basing arguments entirely on tense therefore loses its force, because koine Greek, whether translated literally into English or not, remains painfully imprecise.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Hey Pete,

Tense in Greek is not final like in English. In English grammar, the past tense is passed, but in Greek the past tense can be and often is used for expressing certainty in the future. This is particularly useful for describing the future activity of God - it is so certain that God has already done it. Basing arguments entirely on tense therefore loses its force, because koine Greek, whether translated literally into English or not, remains painfully imprecise.

That too!
Good golly I'm going to have use some mental floss...I agreed with him....:areyoucra :cover: :ignore: :faint::run:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That too!

Yeah, the unfortunate thing is that the literality of the Greek ambiguity remains even though it's translated into the stiffness of English. Even though Greek may be translated into English literally as far as word definitions and tense, the rules of English and Greek grammar are not the same. Some translations realize this, but the Greek is still truly ambiguous and indefinate, a fact which Christian theologians are made painfully aware of.

 

[LogDog]

Pascal's Wager was found to be faulty logic.

And yet it's still used by many theists I encounter.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yeah, the unfortunate thing is that the literality of the Greek ambiguity remains even though it's translated into the stiffness of English. Even though Greek may be translated into English literally as far as word definitions and tense, the rules of English and Greek grammar are not the same. Some translations realize this, but the Greek is still truly ambiguous and indefinate, a fact which Christian theologians are made painfully aware of.

Somehow I knew the meaning from just reading the English. It's amazing that when the whole Bible is taken in context that the meaning becomes clear.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Somehow I knew the meaning from just reading the English.

Whatever.

 

[Fluffy]

No, but it could be for others.

If that is the case then they will have a much more sophisticated argument than the one you present in the OP and, as such, it is a strawman. If you wish to tear an argument down then you must build it up first otherwise it is trivial.

I also feel your argument lacks consistency. You argue that a Christian bases his faith on a fear of hell and a desire for heaven but then where does he base his faith in heaven and hell and surely it is more reasonable to conclude that their cause is likely to be the cause for the rest of their faith as well? Perhaps it would be more consistent if you stated it as a fear of death that results in a desire for belief in the afterlife.

What do you think about the Christian who justifies his belief in this way? How many Christians do you think do this? Why?

And yet it's still used by many theists I encounter.

Yes I agree. I encountered it very recently in fact as a reason why I should convert to Christianity. However, are you seeking to assert how weak it is or why it is viewed as sufficiently convincing by some theists?

Perhaps some atheists are just as stupid to characterize Christianity in this way as the people who follow Christianity like a rabbit after the carrot stick. I suppose thoughtless religious fundamentalism has its dualistic parallel with dogmatic, proseltyzing atheism.

Maybe so but you are preaching to the choir. No "dogmatic, proselytizing atheist" will take heed of your characterisation no matter how true it might be because it lacks empathy with their position. Everybody else already agrees with you.

I mean its all very well to make fun of them but it doesn't change anything. When you've finished, Logdog will still be there doing what you consider to be stupid.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Whatever.

I saved a bundle on tuition.:yes:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Maybe so but you are preaching to the choir. No "dogmatic, proselytizing atheist" will take heed of your characterisation no matter how true it might be because it lacks empathy with their position. Everybody else already agrees with you.

You're absolutely right and that was intentional.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And yet it's still used by many theists I encounter.

Unfortunately many Christians continue to use arguments that are faulty. A little digging on Google would do wonders...for that matter a little digging in the Bible would too!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I saved a bundle on tuition.:yes:

I'll be the judge of that.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'll be the judge of that.

You're not welcome to review my books.:sorry1:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You're not welcome to review my books.:sorry1:

I'll probably read it if it's published and will happily write a review.

 

[Popeyesays]

There is no threat of hell for me.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Reverend Rick]

Perhaps some atheists are just as stupid to characterize Christianity in this way as the people who follow Christianity like a rabbit after the carrot stick. I suppose thoughtless religious fundamentalism has its dualistic parallel with dogmatic, proseltyzing atheism.

Frubals!