In your post #78 you mentioned comparisons to Sweden or Australia - I'm wondering if you could mention an example or two?
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Woke-ists on the left, Trumpists on the right, stuck in the middle?
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
In your post #78 you mentioned comparisons to Sweden or Australia - I'm wondering if you could mention an example or two?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
yep
Speaking as an Australian, American liberals look like conservatives to me
Speaking as an Australian, American liberals look like conservatives to me
I'm curious to know any specific ways? For example, I think of myself as a liberal, but I'm a free speech advocate. So I'm wary of attempts to curtail speech that might be "offensive".
This might be more of a culture clash situation than anything.
Like your liberals (admittedly a lot like our Labour Party, which is basically our Democrat equivalent) don’t really advocate a lot of left leaning positions. They rag on your healthcare system I suppose. But their policies seem quite milquetoast to my eyes. Maybe because a lot of what they advocate for is just a given here. Like for instance I recall a Democrat trying to get more paid maternity leave. I’m sorry I can’t remember the specifics off the top of my head. But they wanted I think 8 weeks minimum. Here that’s actually below standard. We have nationally 12 months unpaid and at least 12 weeks paid for even entry level jobs (but for permanent positions) as far as I’m aware.
So my reaction tends to be more along the lines of, is that all you’re going for? When surveying the Democrat positions. Which is probably why they come across more centrist and sometimes even conservative to my eyes. Their positions seem rather luke warm at best
I also have to comment on this whole “woke PC anti free speech” phenomenon.
I see this as more as a battle between liberals trying desperately not to be seen as this generations’ Church Lady/Helen Lovejoy. And actual leftists (usually the younger ones) who, having grown up on social media, are legitimately hyper aware of prejudice and how language does actually reinforce negative stereotypes and biases. Like that’s not really a controversial topic. I even learnt that in my high school English classes. Yes they went too far at first. But they were mostly just kids trying to do what they felt was right. I got into that whole “I’m a free speech advocate” mindset too for a while. Left that space after I realised the folks I was associating with was making me toxic. But now there’s something of a backlash even in hardcore leftist circles now, I think largely because those extremist examples were utilised very easily by the online right wing. For years even. Particularly among geeky circles, sad to say. So there’s likely a tiny bit of resentment there lol
And as for offensive material being “censored” that’s been happening for literally generations and was actually far harsher in the past. Ever hear of the Hays Code of the 30s?
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Speaking as an Australian, American liberals look like conservatives to me
American liberals look like conservatives to most of the other first world nations.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The term Conservatism is based on the root word "conservation". A conservative tries to preserve and conserved the greatest social hits of the American past, since these aspects of past have the most test proven data in terms of what works the most efficiently. New ideas, can be good, but they have little data and will be resisted until test proven. For example, the basic family unit is very old and is still the most efficient system. All the rest of the alternate life styles need propping up; welfare state, which is a sign of inefficiencies. Science uses the same principles of preponderance of the data to make its judgements.
America was a unique experiment in human history. It did away with a form of government that had been around since the dawn of civilization; Monarchies. Monarchies were no longer in charge and there was separation of church and state, with people allowed individual rights and religious freedom. This unique experiment removed centralized control; Republic, in exchange for a more individual-centric form of government. This allowed trickle up from rags to riches since the boot of monarchy was gone.
America was also an open and rugged frontier with lots of natural resources and natural beauty. This unique open frontier needed driven and self reliant people to settle the land. Early America was never envisioned to be welfare state full of dependents. If it had started that way, nobody would have left the big cities and taken the risk needed to settle the wild frontiers. This is what Conservative try to conserve with free speech and free markets.
America, as it expanded, was about hardworking and industrious individuals pursuing the American dream, while overcoming adversities. Trump was about restoring that original American spirit. This is why Trump pushed for jobs over handouts. Jobs allows one to be the king of their own castle with less obligation to big Government. He also reduced regulation to further limit the centralized power of the nanny state. One can see this difference in approach during the pandemic where the Left leaning states enjoying more centralized control, using it to bully people. While Right leaning states enjoy more freedom to make choices; conserved values from a remarkable time.
Liberalism and the woke culture want to go backwards to a type of self serving monarchy state, where one can be forced to conform by decree; Censorship, PC and Socialism. The BBB or Build Back Better offering by the Left, was overpriced; inefficient and based on a growing dependency on the state. Monarchies behaved the same way. President Biden and Vice President Harris are good example of this monarchy parallel for the Left. They are not there due to being the most competent for the positions. They are there, based on a Left wing version of a royal line of succession; the children of the king will get the power automatically. Bernie Sanders had more competence, but he was not on the inner most circle. The line of succession did not include him.
Trump, on the other hand, was as much of an outsider as possible. At first neither party wanted him to be part of their royal cliques. However, through his unique and individual style, vision and hard work he showed how the American dream can work and even overcome the monarchies. The Swamp was the term used to describe those who thought they were the protectors of the royal line of succession, who were above the law; divine right of kings and queens.
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Ah, this makes a lot of sense. My take is that ALL U.S. politics are SO corrupt and SO gridlocked and partisan that neither side can get anything done.
Just to clarify here - your opponents were toxic or others fighting for free speech were toxic?
That's one of my concerns. The woke-ists are divisive and that weakens liberals and strengthens the nightmarish GOP.
This post of yours seems like one extensive false dilemma. It also seems like you're doing some cherry-picking here? BBB hopes to creates millions of jobs, which seems like common sense. It has aspects that increase welfare, but that's only one aspect of it.
To be fair, I've long felt that governments should be very stingy about handling people money for nothing. It seems to me that - for people in need - the government should say "grab a shovel, work the road construction crew today, and at the end of the day we'll give you a solid day's pay, say $200. I would of course make exceptions for single moms.
Ah, this makes a lot of sense. My take is that ALL U.S. politics are SO corrupt and SO gridlocked and partisan that neither side can get anything done.
Yeah I have to agree
Others ostensibly fighting for free speech were. Turns out they were only paying lip service to the ideal and were just upset they couldn’t be jerks to people without social consequences. It’s fine to like free speech, but in my experience a lot of the very fervent “activists” are actually pretty toxic individuals. I’m not saying you are, just the people I encountered in such spaces over the years were.
They did for a while. But in all honesty this whole woke thing is actually not a new thing. It’s basically a continuation of the sort of things fought for by the counterculture movement of the 1960s. The only real difference is it’s now online. And yeah you can find examples of extremists and toxic individuals. But you can do that for literally any movement under the sun. Meh
To me the difference is that in the 60s a diversity of thought was celebrated. Today's "woke" are frequently of the opinion that on any given topic no diversity of thought can be allowed.
Maybe on Twitter and perhaps Tik Tok. But not in any of the woke circles I run around in. (Also those platforms are toxic as hell.)
But you have to remember these are young kids mostly. Their thinking will be a little more black and white at first. And social media by default amplifies not only voices but pushback. This “celebration of diverse thought” in the 60s was likely more down to not having a large enough platform for all voices to be even heard. So only the most fervent and loudest shone through. That’s not the case anymore since anyone with access to the internet can vent their spleen to their heart’s content. Generate controversy in a matter of seconds and gain/make targeted efforts for essentially whatever they want (if they’re media savvy.)
I see a lot of infighting among woke leftists, sure. But cancelling is also nothing new. I mean Hollywood literally had a blacklist of anyone suspected for “being a commie” for decades. Not to mention the infamous Hays Code. Now I’m to believe that same wing of politics that cheered that on for literally years on end suddenly gives a damn about free speech?
Come on now. It’s nothing but a smokescreen because now people have to face the consequences of their own choices. And many don’t seem to like that very much