Woke-ists on the left, Trumpists on the right, stuck in the middle?

[SomeRandom]

Yes, I'm a great fan of the Connery Bond films. But his assault on ***** Galore in Goldfinger gives me the creeps. The only saving grace about that (in real life, as it were) is that Honor Blackman said of Connery that he actually WAS very fanciable indeed and that if she had not been married she "certainly would have gone there".

Well I mean Connery is quite smooth, I’ll give him that lmao!

P.S. How idiotic that the software on this site won't allow me to give the name of this Bond character.

Political Correctness really has gone too far, hasn’t it?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well I mean Connery is quite smooth, I’ll give him that lmao!


Political Correctness really has gone too far, hasn’t it?

Well, it is sometimes an over-correction, but I get, why that happens.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well, it is sometimes an over-correction, but I get, why that happens.

My comment was in jest. I apologise. I assumed my smiley made that clear.

Political Correctness is merely an inbuilt function of capitalism. Though historically has been used as a tool to stifle unpopular artistic expression by the elites, rather than a tool used by consumers (boycotting) ironically enough.
I could just as easily point to a phenomenon like the Hays Code of the 1930s as an example of so called political correctness. But that was enforced by a literal authority in the industry. So it was actually far more authoritarian. Imo
Political correctness has always existed. What has changed is merely where the lines in the sand are drawn

 

[Revoltingest]

Political Correctness is merely an inbuilt function of capitalism. Though historically has been used as a tool to stifle unpopular artistic expression by the elites, rather than a tool used by consumers (boycotting) ironically enough.

Blaming capitalism for PCness?
Hah!
PCness gets steroid shots in command economies, eg,
N Korea, PRC, USSR. Also "unpopular artistic expression"
wouldn't need elites to stifle it....tis a fundamental trait
of being unpopular that consumers have no interest.

 

[SomeRandom]

Blaming capitalism for PCness?
Hah!
PCness gets steroid shots in command economies, eg,
N Korea, PRC, USSR. Also "unpopular artistic expression"
wouldn't need elites to stifle it....tis a fundamental trait
of being unpopular that consumers have no interest.

I never said that it was only a facet of capitalism. But very well. I’ll rephrase. Political Correctness is a tool that has been exploited by capitalism. Really it is a tool historically applied by the powers that be. As a control mechanism. Arguably capitalism changed that by putting it into the hands of paying customers. A democratic vote made by those who actively make monetary investments. You should be championing Political Correctness, no? It’s literally the free market in action, is it not? People literally voicing their likes and dislikes with their wallets.
I’m merely pointing out that capitalism exploited the phenomenon. Hell in the US capitalism literally exploited being sick for a buck, did it not?

 

[Revoltingest]

I never said that it was only a facet of capitalism. Very well. I’ll rephrase. Political Correctness is a tool that has been exploited by capitalism. Really it is a tool historically applied by the powers that be. As a control mechanism. Arguably capitalism changed that by putting it into the hands of paying customers. A democratic vote made by those who actively make monetary investments. You should be championing Political Correctness, no? It’s literally the free market in action, is it not? People literally voicing their likes and dislikes with their wallets.
I’m merely pointing out that capitalism exploited the phenomenon. Hell in the US capitalism literally exploited being sick for a buck, did it not?

When you wake up in the morning, do
you check under your bed for capitalists?

 

[SomeRandom]

When you wake up in the morning, do
you check under your bed for capitalists?

No, but I do check for spiders. Can’t be too careful in the land of Oz
Do you check under yours for communists? Or is your haggis enough to drive away the scourge?

 

[Revoltingest]

No, but I do check for spiders. Can’t be too careful in the land of Oz
Do you check under yours for communists? Or is your haggis enough to drive away the scourge?

I've no need to check for anything.
If there are commies under there,
the dust bunnies will get'm.

 

[SomeRandom]

I've no need to check for anything.
If there are commies under there,
the dust bunnies will get'm.

Ahh but of course. See I’m too busy dodging drop bears to bother with mere dust bunnies.

Though I am curious to see who would win in a fight between a boxing kangaroo or a libertarian
My money’s on the roo

 

[Revoltingest]

Ahh but of course. See I’m too busy dodging drop bears to bother with mere dust bunnies.

Though I am curious to see who would win in a fight between a boxing kangaroo or a libertarian
My money’s on the roo

The roo would lose.
Libertarians are less tame.

 

[Debater Slayer]

More and more I'm hearing that both woke-ism and trumpism bear many strong resemblances to religions. That certainly seems like a reasonable argument. They both have their dogma, they both promote the idea of blasphemy, they both often resist logical discussion and so on.

I'm feeling stuck in the middle, what with holding truth, evidence and logic in high regard and all.

Anyone else feeling stuck in the middle between the extremists?

Something occurred to me when reading this thread today: not long ago, you posted a thread echoing Jordan Peterson's sentiments on Bill C-16 and citing it as an example of something limiting free speech, and multiple members (me included) replied explaining how JBP was misrepresenting the bill and being factually inaccurate.

I strongly suspect that your idea of "in the middle" may be quite considerably to the right of what many people consider to be a centrist position on the political spectrum. You're entitled to that, but it's useful to keep in mind that many people consider themselves "in the middle" when they actually have strong partisan leanings too (which aren't necessarily a negative thing to have).

 

[SomeRandom]

The roo would lose.
Libertarians are less tame.

Pah!
You underestimate the roo

 

[icehorse]

Something occurred to me when reading this thread today: not long ago, you posted a thread echoing Jordan Peterson's sentiments on Bill C-16 and citing it as an example of something limiting free speech, and multiple members (me included) replied explaining how JBP was misrepresenting the bill and being factually inaccurate.

I strongly suspect that your idea of "in the middle" may be quite considerably to the right of what many people consider to be a centrist position on the political spectrum. You're entitled to that, but it's useful to keep in mind that many people consider themselves "in the middle" when they actually have strong partisan leanings too (which aren't necessarily a negative thing to have).

I'd ask you to take a look at my post #32 and ask yourself where you think those attitudes fall on the political spectrum? I'd also say that I can relate to the diagram below :

[GALLERY=media, 9647]Liberal-shift by icehorse posted Nov 28, 2021 at 7:51 AM[/GALLERY]

 

[Yerda]

I'd ask you to take a look at my post #32 and ask yourself where you think those attitudes fall on the political spectrum? I'd also say that I can relate to the diagram below :

[GALLERY=media, 9647]Liberal-shift by icehorse posted Nov 28, 2021 at 7:51 AM[/GALLERY]

I'd guess that you're centre-left but (like a lot of people) you are mislabelling yourself as an alienated centrist in part due to bias in the selection of media you consume.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'd ask you to take a look at my post #32 and ask yourself where you think those attitudes fall on the political spectrum?

They're certainly a lot more left-leaning than at the center, at least in the current climate of U.S. politics.

My main concern is that a subset of people with mostly liberal values seem to be too apologetic or supportive toward ideologues whose values undermine most of what secular, liberal thinking stands for.

Jordan Peterson is a great example of this because he's an influential public figure who has failed to directly come out and support same-sex marriage or talk about the rising tides of neo-Nazism in multiple Western countries. Instead, he spends most of his political airtime talking about caricatures of various leftist positions and dramatizing non-issues such as Bill C-16, sometimes based on misrepresentations and factual inaccuracies. The political net effect of someone like him in today's world is negative whether he has bad intentions or not, since he uses the very fringes of the left to paint the left with but stays mostly silent on right-wing extremism or even tacitly supports it at times.

I'd also say that I can relate to the diagram below :

[GALLERY=media, 9647]Liberal-shift by icehorse posted Nov 28, 2021 at 7:51 AM[/GALLERY]

It's interesting that your diagram represents that specific type of liberal but portrays the edge of the right-wing spectrum as fixed or something the centrist moves to. In my opinion, the edge of the right wing has become even more extreme and polarized too, and not just since 2008. I'd say that goes at least as far back as when George W. Bush invaded Iraq based on fearmongering and false pretenses.

The diagram kinda gives the impression that some people's problem is more with shifting understanding of progressive politics than with concern for reason, introspection, or humanist values--which is already the case with many (but not all) self-identified "centrists" who lean far more toward extremist apologetics than they seem to realize or admit.

 

[icehorse]

I'd guess that you're centre-left but (like a lot of people) you are mislabelling yourself as an alienated centrist in part due to bias in the selection of media you consume.

I'm genuinely curious to hear your analysis of the "media I consume" what is the spectrum of media I consume?

 

[icehorse]

It's interesting that your diagram represents that specific type of liberal but portrays the edge of the right-wing spectrum as fixed or something the centrist moves to. In my opinion, the edge of the right wing has become even more extreme and polarized too, and not just since 2008. I'd say that goes at least as far back as when George W. Bush invaded Iraq based on fearmongering and false pretenses.

The diagram kinda gives the impression that some people's problem is more with shifting understanding of progressive politics than with concern for reason, introspection, or humanist values--which is already the case with many (but not all) self-identified "centrists" who lean far more toward extremist apologetics than they seem to realize or admit.

To your first point, I agree that the extremists on the right have gotten a lot more extreme. I don't post much about neo-Nazis or white nationalists because my guess is that we all already agree about them. My concern is that the extreme left is splintering liberals. My guess is that most everyone posting on this thread pretty much share the same values. Maybe slight differences between us, but for the most part, we value the same things. What worries me is that the extreme left seems hell bent on dividing us.

I'm not sure I understand your 2nd paragraph, can you restate it?

 

[Debater Slayer]

To your first point, I agree that the extremists on the right have gotten a lot more extreme. I don't post much about neo-Nazis or white nationalists because my guess is that we all already agree about them. My concern is that the extreme left is splintering liberals. My guess is that most everyone posting on this thread pretty much share the same values. Maybe slight differences between us, but for the most part, we value the same things. What worries me is that the extreme left seems hell bent on dividing us.

I think you might be surprised by how many people would disagree with us on white supremacism and neo-Nazism, especially once you got down to specific and smaller but still harmful behaviors such as displaying the Confederate flag.

I think extremists of all sorts tend to cause unnecessary division and strife. Trump has caused a rift among some members of his own party due to his polarizing politics, and Cenk Uygur remains controversial among the left largely due to being a "tankie." It's not a phenomenon exclusive to the left, much less to people who call out right-wing extremism.

Also, sometimes there are good reasons to cause division or expose flaws in certain political positions, which could lead to division and controversy. If you call out a liberal for being too cozy with Saudi Arabia's theocratic tyranny, you are almost guaranteed to be accused of "racism" or "Islamophobia" by some extremists, but that sort of division is both unavoidable in any movement and useful for exposing the fringe, unreasonable elements among its ranks.

I'm not sure I understand your 2nd paragraph, can you restate it?

The diagram portrays a shift in the "fellow liberal's" position on the spectrum but portrays the far end of the right wing as fixed. This is incorrect: the polarizarion and growing divide among the left and right is bipartisan and has many more reasons than just "progressives have become too extreme."

A solid demonstration of this is to compare what counts as "leftist" in the U.S. to, say, Sweden or Australia. American "leftist" politics is largely more conservative than it is in multiple other parts of the developed world, which means American "centrist" politics also leans farther to the right.

 

[icehorse]

A solid demonstration of this is to compare what counts as "leftist" in the U.S. to, say, Sweden or Australia. American "leftist" politics is largely more conservative than it is in multiple other parts of the developed world, which means American "centrist" politics also leans farther to the right.

I agree (as I think I've mentioned), with most of what you're saying here - including the shifting of the extreme right.

I'd be curious to hear a few examples from Sweden or Australia or... ?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'd be curious to hear a few examples from Sweden or Australia or... ?

Examples of what? I'm unsure what you're asking about.