With bafflement upon bafflement!

[Redemptionsong]

Well that's easy. Idol worship done in love breaks the law of Moses. Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 5:8-9.

And the response is equally as easy; for if you love God, as Jesus says, then 'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, your version of God is the Holy Spirit. That is not even the version of God of all Christians. And I do not believe in any God.

As to why so many Christian scholars become atheists you would probably have to ask them. One likely reason would be the endless self contradictions in the Bible.

I've already asked for you to provide one clear contradiction. I shall now await with bated breath.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, your version of God is the Holy Spirit. That is not even the version of God of all Christians. And I do not believe in any God.

As to why so many Christian scholars become atheists you would probably have to ask them. One likely reason would be the endless self contradictions in the Bible.

So, you are an atheist, having previously questioned my judgement!

 

[dybmh]

Yes, the Spirit of God rests on all prophets, and Jesus was a prophet. The difference between the prophets of the OT and the Messiah is that the Holy Spirit, in full measure, rests upon the Messiah. This is only possible if the faith of the individual is not corrupted by sin.

^^ Not scriptural.

What are the prophets looking forward to, if not the Messianic era?

In general, the prophets rebuke. Occasionally they speak about the messianic era. The directive is usually, "return to God" NOT "your savoir is coming".

The prophets you mention all prophesy of a future time, when an extraordinary individual is anointed as king over Israel.

"The prophets ALL prophecy about an individual anointed King" - False.

None of the prophets you mention have the power to deliver prisoners from their (sinful) prisons.

Also false. Each and every prophet has the power to inspire repentence.

Ezekiel 37:24 is a prophecy that Jews use as evidence of the future Messiah. The verse speaks of 'David my servant' being king over Judah and Israel, 'and they shall all have one shepherd'.

Read the whole chapter. Who is doing the saving? It's God. The future King is NOT God, else the enire chapter would be written differently.

Can you not see the link between the prophecies of Isaiah and those of Ezekiel? They each speak of the same Messiah, as do all the prophets.

Of course! God is the savior is Isaiah. God is the savior in Ezekial. The "servant" is Jacob in Isaiah 48:8. The "servant" is Jacob in Ezekiel 37:25 ( the verse immediately following the one you brought ). Yes I absolutely see the the link. I also see the flaws in your conclusions.

Who is your shepherd?

Right now, I'll say Moses and King David. But according to Ezekiel it will be the future King.

 

[dybmh]

And the response is equally as easy; for if you love God, as Jesus says, then 'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.'

Doesn't stop someone from lovingly making an Idol of the Lord thy God ( in thought or deed ) and then lovingly worshipping it and serving it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

^^ Not scriptural.

In general, the prophets rebuke. Occasionally they speak about the messianic era. The directive is usually, "return to God" NOT "your savoir is coming".

"The prophets ALL prophecy about an individual anointed King" - False.

Also false. Each and every prophet has the power to inspire repentence.

Read the whole chapter. Who is doing the saving? It's God. The future King is NOT God, else the enire chapter would be written differently.

Of course! God is the savior is Isaiah. God is the savior in Ezekial. The "servant" is Jacob in Isaiah 48:8. The "servant" is Jacob in Ezekiel 37:25 ( the verse immediately following the one you brought ). Yes I absolutely see the the link. I also see the flaws in your conclusions.

Right now, I'll say Moses and King David. But according to Ezekiel it will be the future King.

There can be little doubt that the only true Saviour is God. So who fits the description of 'the salvation of God'?

In lsaiah, there is a repeated reference to the servant of God being 'a light to the Gentiles'. So, lYO, who does this refer to? Is it Jacob, the nation of lsrael? Can the Jews legitimately consider themselves to be the 'servant of God' upon whom the Spirit of God rests?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Doesn't stop someone from lovingly making an Idol of the Lord thy God ( in thought or deed ) and then lovingly worshipping it and serving it.

Eh? How does one make the LORD God into an idol? The oneness of God makes idolatry impossible.

 

[dybmh]

There can be little doubt that the only true Saviour is God. So who fits the description of 'the salvation of God'?

The salvation of God is a 'what' not a 'who'. Making it a 'who' is idolatry and is not scriptural.

In lsaiah, there is a repeated reference to the servant of God being 'a light to the Gentiles'. So, lYO, who does this refer to?

Per scripture, the Jewish nation, in the future. Not only that, but it is 100% clear that Jesus CANNOT be the servant spoken of in Isaiah. Chapter 42, "he shall not cry, he shall not be broken". Ummm he cried on the cross "Lord why have you forsaken me". He was broken when he died. Chapter 49 it says "You are my servant, Israel". If you have actual scripture to cite on this go ahead, but Chapters 42 and 49 are out. The other reference to "light to the NATIONS" is in chapter 60, but no reference to the servent is there, so that chapter is out too.

Can the Jews legitimately consider themselves to be the 'servant of God' upon whom the Spirit of God rests?

Well. If the metric for evidence is set equivilent to the New Testament, absolutely. We have had miracles, healers, exorcists, saints, dead rising from the grave, all individual testimony, written stories passed down for generations.

My turn for a question, please. Let's say you're right about what the scripture is saying about spiritual blindness. Do you have any reasons to believe that this is still in effect today? The prophets could certainly be accurate in their place and time. The prophets may be correct about future events. But that doesn't mean it's happening now. The conclusion that it's happening now has not been supported.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The salvation of God is a 'what' not a 'who'. Making it a 'who' is idolatry and is not scriptural.
Per scripture, the Jewish nation, in the future. Not only that, but it is 100% clear that Jesus CANNOT be the servant spoken of in Isaiah. Chapter 42, "he shall not cry, he shall not be broken". Ummm he cried on the cross "Lord why have you forsaken me". He was broken when he died. Chapter 49 it says "You are my servant, Israel". If you have actual scripture to cite on this go ahead, but Chapters 42 and 49 are out. The other reference to "light to the NATIONS" is in chapter 60, but no reference to the servent is there, so that chapter is out too.

Well. If the metric for evidence is set equivilent to the New Testament, absolutely. We have had miracles, healers, exorcists, saints, dead rising from the grave, all individual testimony, written stories passed down for generations.

My turn for a question, please. Let's say you're right about what the scripture is saying about spiritual blindness. Do you have any reasons to believe that this is still in effect today? The prophets could certainly be accurate in their place and time. The prophets may be correct about future events. But that doesn't mean it's happening now. The conclusion that it's happening now has not been supported.

Ok. Let me begin by attempting to answer your final question.

Is the blindness that the prophets speak about still evident in lsrael?

I take my lead, in responding to this question, from Hosea 6:1-3. It says, 'Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then we shall know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.'

Those speaking in this passage are Ephraim and Judah (see ch.5), and they are responding to God, who had said (Hosea 5:15), 'l will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.'

I understand that the 'days' in Hosea 6 refer to periods of a thousand years. The point from which we begin to measure the two days is from the expulsion of the Jews from their land (under the Romans). For roughly two thousand years the Jews are exiles, and 'revival' occurs when God allows Jews to return to the land of their ancestors. It is in the third day, of a thousand years, our present millennium, that God begins to raise up lsrael once again (to make them strong). It is 'then' that lsrael will again have knowledge of the LORD, and of his coming, but only if they 'follow on to know the LORD'. And the reference to rain is to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit [Jeremiah 31:33,34.]

What this passage teaches me is that lsrael does not have knowledge of God at the present time. If they did have knowledge, there would be no need to use the future tense in relation to knowing God. Furthermore, in Hosea 5:15, God's accusation against lsrael and Judah is that they have not acknowledged their offence, or sought God's face. So, l ask, how is one to recognise the face of God? How is one able to know God if his Spirit is not accessible? If you argue that God is not able to manifest himself both amongst men and within their hearts, then God remains an allusive and unknowable God. Having the written word is not enough. It must become a spiritual reality.

Summary: Yes, blindness still exists, but there is a softening of hearts and a thirst for knowledge of God. This knowledge can only be found in, and through, Christ.

 

[dybmh]

Ok. Let me begin by attempting to answer your final question.

Is the blindness that the prophets speak about still evident in lsrael?

I take my lead, in responsing to this question, from Hosea 6:1-3. It says, 'Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then we shall know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.'

Those speaking in this passage are Ephraim and Judah (see ch.5), and they are responding to God, who had said (Hosea 5:15), 'l will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.'

I understand that the 'days' in Hosea 6 refer to periods of a thousand years. The point from which we begin to measure the two days is from the expulsion of the Jews from their land (under the Romans). For roughly two thousand years the Jews are exiles, and 'revival' occurs when God allows Jews to return to the land of their ancestors. It is in the third day, of a thousand years, our present millennium, that God begins to raise up lsrael once again (to make them strong). It is 'then' that lsrael will again have knowledge of the LORD, and of his coming, but only if they 'follow on to know the LORD'. And the reference to rain is to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit [Jeremiah 31:33,34.]

What this passage teaches me is that lsrael does not have knowledge of God at the present time. If they did have knowledge, there would be no need to use the future tense in relation to knowing God. Furthermore, in Hosea 5:1, God's accusation against lsrael and Judah is that they have not acknowledged their offence, or sought God's face. So, l ask, how is one to recognise the face of God? How is one able to know God if his Spirit is not accessible? If you argue that God is not able to manifest himself both amongst men, and within their hearts, then God remains an allusive and unknowable God. Having the written word is not enough. It must become a spiritual reality.

Summary: Yes, blindness still exists, but there is a softening of hearts and a thirst for knowledge of God. This knowledge can only be found in, and through, Christ.

1) Hosea Chapter 14 refutes any claim that Israel cannot be cured of the spiritual blindness already.

2) You said, "If they did have knowledge, there would be no need to use the future tense in relation to knowing God." Using the future tense only means that they did not have knowledge at that time. It's no different than Isaiah. You are judging the Jewish people as blind without cause. Shame on you.

3) Claiming that "day" in this case means a thousand years is weak, and it's the only reason you have left. Therefore you have a weak argument.

So that's it? One word? "day'? That's the only **scriptural** reason you have to think that Jewish people, today, are spiritually blind?

 

[idea]

Well, you've just made your position very clear. You reject the life of Jesus Christ... He... sent his Holy Spirit to lead me....

I rejected religious groups who believe only they understand the truth.

It's called elevation emotion, it's not from God, what you feel is no different than what all other religious groups with "the spirit" feel. It's not "god", it is a herd bonding instinct. Please watch and read - it is not "god" you or anyone else feels -

Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia.

It is important for everyone to realize what the above sensation is - it is NOT from God, it does NOT mean you are chosen, you are NOT better than everyone else NOT led "by the spirit",

it is led by herd instincts, no different than migrating birds, wolf packs, deer, or any other animal group following their animal leader.

 

[Redemptionsong]

1) Hosea Chapter 14 refutes any claim that Israel cannot be cured of the spiritual blindness already.

2) You said, "If they did have knowledge, there would be no need to use the future tense in relation to knowing God." Using the future tense only means that they did not have knowledge at that time. It's no different than Isaiah. You are judging the Jewish people as blind without cause. Shame on you.

3) Claiming that "day" in this case means a thousand years is weak, and it's the only reason you have left. Therefore you have a weak argument.

So that's it? One word? "day'? That's the only **scriptural** reason you have to think that Jewish people, today, are spiritually blind?

If you believe that the Jewish people have already recovered from their blindness, when did the healing occur? What change brought about the recovery of sight?

Isaiah 59:20,21.
'And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which l have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth for evermore.'

From this reading of lsaiah, the Spirit of God is upon the Redeemer, and is given by the Redeemer to those that turn from transgressions in Jacob.

This indicates that your belief that the servant of Isaiah is Jacob can only be true following redemption. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit arrives with the Redeemer, the Holy one of Israel, and then affects his seed, the redeemed.

This is exactly what has happened in the Church since the day of Pentecost.

The pertinent issue for Jews must be knowledge of the Redeemer, for only his appearance will turn Jacob from his transgressions.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I rejected religious groups who believe only they understand the truth.

It's called elevation emotion, it's not from God, what you feel is no different than what all other religious groups with "the spirit" feel. It's not "god", it is a herd bonding instinct. Please watch and read - it is not "god" you or anyone else feels -

Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia.

It is important for everyone to realize what the above sensation is - it is NOT from God, it does NOT mean you are chosen, you are NOT better than everyone else NOT led "by the spirit",

it is led by herd instincts, no different than migrating birds, wolf packs, deer, or any other animal group following their animal leader.

What l have experienced is matched perfectly by the testimony of those whose witness and testimony is found in scripture.

I am not impressed by the claims you present. I have good reason to believe that Jesus Christ is alive.

What you fail to appreciate is that l don't claim the truth as my own. It was Christ who claimed to be the way, the truth and the life. My response to Jesus is one of simple trust.

 

[dybmh]

If you believe that the Jewish people have already recovered from their blindness, when did the healing occur? What change brought about the recovery of sight?

First, this is only assuming you're right about what the scripture is saying. I have not agreed to this. But if there was a problem, and now there isn't a problem, the most likely resolution is ... drumroll ... idol worship... it's simply not a problem for Jewish people anymore. It's a benefit of living in a modern world.

Isaiah 59:20,21.
'And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which l have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth for evermore.'

From this reading of lsaiah, the Spirit of God is upon the Redeemer, and is given by the Redeemer to those that turn from transgressions in Jacob.

You have, yet again, started adding to scripture. No, 59:20-21 does NOT say the spirit of the Lord is given by the redeemer. I think you're making that up.

This indicates that your belief that the servant of Isaiah is Jacob can only be true following redemption. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit arrives with the Redeemer, the Holy one of Israel, and then affects his seed, the redeemed.

False. The equivilence servant = redeemer is NOT scriptural. God is the redeemer. The servant is Israel. That's scripture.

 

[idea]

What l have experienced is matched perfectly....

matches perfectly with heaven's gate, and every other group out there.

Every supposed prophet/cultist/pope/bishop claims the same - God complex - "I'm just following god"

No, they are all following themselves, all following their own opinion of god.

God complex - Wikipedia

 

[blü 2]

Writing some 700 years before the birth of Jesus, Isaiah provides a wonderful prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

But I'd like to begin with what the witnesses at Pentecost said about their own experience, fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:1-13 tells the whole story. Verse 13 ends with the mocking words of the doubters, 'These men are full of new wine'!

At this point, Peter stood before the crowd in Jerusalem, along with the eleven other apostles, and said, 'Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:'

Now, instead of turning to the prophet Joel, let's return to Isaiah. In Isaiah 29:9 it says, (KJV) 'Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.'

Out here in reality, which seems most probable to you?

1. That the scene reported in Acts was supernaturally foreseen by the real Joel or alternatively the author of Joel, and that those who spoke the words in Acts spoke them in total ignorance of what was written in Joel?

2. That those who spoke the words in Acts remembered what the author of Joel had written, and thought it would be a good piece of salesmanship to put those words to use here?

3. That the author of Acts when writing up this scene remembered the words in Joel and wrote them in to improve the story?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've already asked for you to provide one clear contradiction. I shall now await with bated breath.

The two contradicting nativity myths is a very good example.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So, you are an atheist, having previously questioned my judgement!

Of course. Your beliefs are not rational.

 

[Redemptionsong]

First, this is only assuming you're right about what the scripture is saying. I have not agreed to this. But if there was a problem, and now there isn't a problem, the most likely resolution is ... drumroll ... idol worship... it's simply not a problem for Jewish people anymore. It's a benefit of living in a modern world.

You have, yet again, started adding to scripture. No, 59:20-21 does NOT say the spirit of the Lord is given by the redeemer. I think you're making that up.

False. The equivilence servant = redeemer is NOT scriptural. God is the redeemer. The servant is Israel. That's scripture.

I agree that the Redeemer is God, and that this passage refers to the second coming. It demonstrates that when the Redeemer does appear, that only a remnant of Jacob will have turned from their transgression. That remnant, to my understanding, are the ones who accept Jesus as the Christ, and who are called 'lsrael'. In the story of Jacob in Genesis, the point at which Jacob's name is changed to lsrael, is the point at which he sees God 'face to face'. So, who is the face, or image of God, if not his anointed servant, Jesus Christ?

If you believe that Jacob has already become the anointed servant of God, then the evidence should be that Jacob knows God through the Holy Spirit. But the only Jews who know God through the Holy Spirit are those who have received Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Out here in reality, which seems most probable to you?

1. That the scene reported in Acts was supernaturally foreseen by the real Joel or alternatively the author of Joel, and that those who spoke the words in Acts spoke them in total ignorance of what was written in Joel?

2. That those who spoke the words in Acts remembered what the author of Joel had written, and thought it would be a good piece of salesmanship to put those words to use here?

3. That the author of Acts when writing up this scene remembered the words in Joel and wrote them in to improve the story?

What l believe, and what is written in the NT, is that 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is proftable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.'