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With bafflement upon bafflement!

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Writing some 700 years before the birth of Jesus, Isaiah provides a wonderful prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

But I'd like to begin with what the witnesses at Pentecost said about their own experience, fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:1-13 tells the whole story. Verse 13 ends with the mocking words of the doubters, 'These men are full of new wine'!

At this point, Peter stood before the crowd in Jerusalem, along with the eleven other apostles, and said, 'Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:'

Now, instead of turning to the prophet Joel, let's return to Isaiah. In Isaiah 29:9 it says, (KJV) 'Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.'

Do you notice that Isaiah is speaking about 'they', as a people somehow estranged from the Jews, whom he refers to as 'you' and 'yours' ? Yet, we know that Peter and the apostles were all descendants of Abraham. Then, to make the estrangement even more poignant, Isaiah says (verse 10), 'For the LORD has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.'

In 2 Corinthians 3:13,14, Paul says, 'And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.'

So, it is Christ who opens the sealed book, as it says in Revelation 5:9: 'And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.'

IMO, it's powerful stuff. What do Torah Jews make of Isaiah's prophecy?
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Writing some 700 years before the birth of Jesus, Isaiah provides a wonderful prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

But I'd like to begin with what the witnesses at Pentecost said about their own experience, fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:1-13 tells the whole story. Verse 13 ends with the mocking words of the doubters, 'These men are full of new wine'!

At this point, Peter stood before the crowd in Jerusalem, along with the eleven other apostles, and said, 'Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:'

Now, instead of turning to the prophet Joel, let's return to Isaiah. In Isaiah 29:9 it says, (KJV) 'Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.'

Do you notice that Isaiah is speaking about 'they', as a people somehow estranged from the Jews, whom he refers to as 'you' and 'yours' ? Yet, we know that Peter and the apostles were all descendants of Abraham. Then, to make the estrangement even more poignant, Isaiah says (verse 10), 'For the LORD has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.'

In 2 Corinthians 3:13,14, Paul says, 'And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.'

So, it is Christ who opens the sealed book, as it says in Revelation 5:9: 'And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.'

IMO, it's powerful stuff. What do Torah Jews make of Isaiah's prophecy?

I presume they think it has nothing to do with whatever is in the New Testament. It appears to be about a prophecy of surrounding nations waging war against Jerusalem and appearing to win, but then unexpectedly being defeated.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I presume they think it has nothing to do with whatever is in the New Testament. It appears to be about a prophecy of surrounding nations waging war against Jerusalem and appearing to win, but then unexpectedly being defeated.
Isaiah 29:9 states that 'they' are drunken, and 'they' stagger. Who are 'they'? Why do they appear 'drunken'?

It's a strange thing that God should provide a prophecy but fail to provide a fulfilment.

In verse 14, lsaiah says, 'l will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people'. Which people do you imagine this to be?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The #1 problem for me is trying to read Acts 2 as if it were true.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Isaiah 29:9 states that 'they' are drunken, and 'they' stagger. Who are 'they'? Why do they appear 'drunken'?

See verse 8:

"Like one who is hungry
And dreams he is eating,
But wakes to find himself empty;
And like one who is thirsty
And dreams he is drinking,
But wakes to find himself faint
And utterly parched—
So shall be all the multitude of nations
That war upon Mount Zion."


It's a strange thing that God should provide a prophecy but fail to provide a fulfilment.

The Biblical God does that all the time. Like Jesus coming back a second time, for example.

In verse 14, lsaiah says, 'l will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people'. Which people do you imagine this to be?

See above.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
See verse 8:

"Like one who is hungry
And dreams he is eating,
But wakes to find himself empty;
And like one who is thirsty
And dreams he is drinking,
But wakes to find himself faint
And utterly parched—
So shall be all the multitude of nations
That war upon Mount Zion."




The Biblical God does that all the time. Like Jesus coming back a second time, for example.



See above.
The prophecies for the second coming exist in both the words of Hebrew scripture, and in the words of Jesus and his apostles. We now await the final judgement.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The #1 problem for me is trying to read Acts 2 as if it were true.
Why is that a problem? Pentecost for Jews relates to the giving of the law. On the very day of Shavuot the Spirit of God was written on the hearts of those who placed their faith in Jesus as the Saviour from sin.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Why is that a problem? Pentecost for Jews relates to the giving of the law. On the very day of Shavuot the Spirit of God was written on the hearts of those who placed their faith in Jesus as the Saviour from sin.
Well, if the event never happened, then no one was speaking in tongues, and the accusation about being drunk never happened, and that means the connection to Isaiah 29 is null.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The prophecies for the second coming exist in both the words of Hebrew scripture, and in the words of Jesus and his apostles. We now await the final judgement.

But it hasn't happened. So you're in the same boat as Jews awaiting the fulfillment of this prophecy from Isaiah.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Well, if the event never happened, then no one was speaking in tongues, and the accusation about being drunk never happened, and that means the connection to Isaiah 29 is null.
But multiple testimonies exist. One doesn't deny a testimony without reason.

There has been a continous Christian witness to the truth of the Gospel since the day of Pentecost.

What you are claiming is that the record of Luke was an outright lie. So, why would a liar use Isaiah 29:9 if they had no idea what the passage was about? The scripture only becomes clear after the event!
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
But it hasn't happened. So you're in the same boat as Jews awaiting the fulfillment of this prophecy from Isaiah.
There are many prophecies already fulfilled in Christ, and lsaiah 29:9 happens to be one of them!

If you're waiting for the final fulfilment of prophecy then you will have missed God's offer of salvation!
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
There are many prophecies already fulfilled in Christ, and lsaiah 29:9 happens to be one of them!

No there aren't, and no it doesn't unless you completely rip it out of context.

If you're waiting for the final fulfilment of prophecy then you will have missed God's offer of salvation!

Then this comment was odd:

"It's a strange thing that God should provide a prophecy but fail to provide a fulfilment."
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
But multiple testimonies exist. One doesn't deny a testimony without reason.
Easy... easy there, my friend. How would I know? I mean, that's why I made the comment in the first place. I have no idea if the story in Acts is true. And please note my careful wording. I said it was "my problem". I didn't critisize. :) Can you show me the multiple accounts of the story about speaking in tongues?
There has been a continous Christian witness to the truth of the Gospel since the day of Pentecost.
I'm ignorant on this. Is Acts considered Gospel? Can you show me the "continuous Christian witness" that includes the story in Acts 2?
What you are claiming is that the record of Luke was an outright lie. So, why would a liar use Isaiah 29:9 if they had no idea what the passage was about? The scripture only becomes clear after the event!
OK, so you're saying I should review something in Luke. I'll go back in your posts and look for that. But, just talking about Isa 29:9, the description of drunk without wine is not a good thing. It's a bad thing, right? So why would you apply this to the apostles and disciples of Christ? Seems counter-productive to your point?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
To whom, lYO, are the words of lsaiah 29:10,11 directed?
Well... Isaiah is challenging for me, but I'll do my best.

10 For the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep sleep, and He has closed your eyes; the prophets and your heads who stargaze, He has covered.

11 And the vision of everything has been to you like the words of a sealed book, which they give to one who can read, saying, "Now read this," and he shall say, "I cannot, for it is sealed."

I vote, these verses are directed to the leaders of Hezekiah's time, "the prophets and your heads who stargaze".
 
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