Will the real Messianic Jews please stand up

[Avi1001]

I don't know a lot about Nazarenes, actually. Gentile Xians called us heretics because we would not accept the trinitarian theology of Xianity. MJ is a term too much associated with such trinitarian theology, so I avoid it because of that.

Ok, interesting, so you reject trinitarianism. So do I. So far we are on the same page.

I also reject proselytizing, if it relates to convincing Jews to worship in a way that is against Torah. 'Proselytizing' to promote proper approach to Torah observance, which is what Yeshua actually taught, I am all for.

I reject prosthelytizing too. So we are still on the same page.

However, I grew up in a large city, and Jews for Jesus were often prostheyletizing. So what was that about ?

....."what Yeshua actually taught". Here's where I have a feeling we might part ways. How can you be "all for" what Yeshua taught, if you are a Jew ?

I am happy to explain the real Jewish meaning of these teachings, but hardly call it 'interfaith' as I am a Jew first and foremost.

Do you mean the "real Jewish meaning" of what Yeshua taught is different than what is written in the NT, which we can all read for ourselves ?

Also, please explain how you are a "Jew first and foremost", if you are a follower of Yeshua ?

Btw, can you please explain your avatar ? It is quite unique.

 

[Zardoz]

OK, a lot of good questions. I will answer in reverse order.

The movie Zardoz was a cult classic. The pic in my sig is a link to the wiki page. AFAIK, it's the only movie about smashing an idol. Appropriate.

Secondly, I am a follower of the teachings of Yeshua the man, not a worshiper of Yeshua. I trust you understand.

Third, please read the Sermon on the Mount and get back to me on what isn't Jewish or at least contrary to Jewish belief and ideals. That's just about the only record of his teachings that I can accept as legitimate and unadulterated. Most of the so-called NT is the words of Paul, not Yeshua. Throw all that out, and for good measure throw out the greek book of John, and the ridiculous 'Revelations'. Then you will be seeing the NT that I deem worthy of study. However keep in mind that these records are from sources that are untrustworthy, but the only ones that survived.

Fourth, J4J is a cult. They are falsehood. They pretend and are merely facade and inside they are ravenous wolves, in sheep's clothing. I cannot express my disgust and aversion to them in terms suitable or acceptable for a DIR.

 

[Avi1001]

OK, a lot of good questions. I will answer in reverse order.

The movie Zardoz was a cult classic. The pic in my sig is a link to the wiki page. AFAIK, it's the only movie about smashing an idol. Appropriate.

It looks rather unusual. I like the idea of smashing a flying idol.

Secondly, I am a follower of the teachings of Yeshua the man, not a worshiper of Yeshua. I trust you understand.

You're a perfect example of the type of Jew the guys in the DIR fear. You have completely set up your own rules. Who would have ever expected to meet a Jew who "follows the teachings of Yeshua the man....". What do the guys in the Judaism DIR say about that ? I am a liberal reform Jew, and they give me a lot of grief. I look forward to seeing your interactions.

Third, please read the Sermon on the Mount and get back to me on what isn't Jewish or at least contrary to Jewish belief and ideals. That's just about the only record of his teachings that I can accept as legitimate and unadulterated. Most of the so-called NT is the words of Paul, not Yeshua. Throw all that out, and for good measure throw out the greek book of John, and the ridiculous 'Revelations'. Then you will be seeing the NT that I deem worthy of study.

I've read the NT and believe Jesus was a Jew until his death. I know all about Paul, John, and Revelations. I deem the NT worthy of study.

I am interested in studying comparative religion and participating in interfaith dialogue. I am interested in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, and other religions. If you don't prostheletyze me, I don't prostheletyze you. Are we in agreement ?

Fourth, J4J is a cult. They are falsehood. They pretend and are merely facade and inside they are ravenous wolves, in sheep's clothing. I cannot express my disgust and aversion to them in terms suitable or acceptable for a DIR.

Please tell me more about the J4J cult. Were you a member ? Why do they "disguist" you ? Are MJ's in general any better or as bad as J4J ?

I've heard the J4J were having large increases in membership. Why is this sub so dead ?

What are your thoughts about Rabbi Zalman Schecter-Shalomi ?

 

[RabbiO]

You're a perfect example of the type of Jew the guys in the DIR fear. You have completely set up your own rules. Who would have ever expected to meet a Jew who "follows the teachings of Yeshua the man....". What do the guys in the Judaism DIR say about that ? I am a liberal reform Jew, and they give me a lot of grief.

This really is not the appropriate forum for this discussion and I apologize for that, but I could not let your remarks go by without comment. If you want to continue the conversation you can post something on the Judaism DIR or elsewhere. (I also apologize for the temporary disruption of your conversation with Zardoz.)

You have done a disservice to everyone who participates on the Judaism DIR. Never mind that there are non-Orthodox participants on that DIR, the truth is that whatever it is the Orthodox members may feel about Messianics, be it Zardoz or others, or what they may feel about you, it ain't fear. I can think of a whole lot of things they might feel, much of which would not be complimentary, but, again, fear is not one of them.

Peter

 

[Avi1001]

You have done a disservice to everyone who participates on the Judaism DIR. Never mind that there are non-Orthodox participants on that DIR, the truth is that whatever it is the Orthodox members may feel about Messianics, be it Zardoz or others, or what they may feel about you, it ain't fear. I can think of a whole lot of things they might feel, much of which would not be complimentary, but, again, fear is not one of them.

Peter

Hi Rabbio, I think fear is indeed part of how many Jews feel toward J4J. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

If you want to continue the conversation you can post something on the Judaism DIR or elsewhere.

Also, why would I put a post about J4J in the Jewish DIR, it would just be moved back here

...the truth is that whatever it is the Orthodox members may feel about Messianics, be it Zardoz or others....

I believe Zardoz said he is a Jew, not a MJ. I think he considers himself Ebionite.

 

[Zardoz]

You're a perfect example of the type of Jew the guys in the DIR fear. You have completely set up your own rules. Who would have ever expected to meet a Jew who "follows the teachings of Yeshua the man....". What do the guys in the Judaism DIR say about that ? I am a liberal reform Jew, and they give me a lot of grief. I look forward to seeing your interactions.

Actually, I've had convos in the past with esteemed members like Levite. Once they understand I am not trinitarian and do not worship any but HaShem, and see that I await the Davidic Messiah like most Jews... they have few problems with me. Most don't care if I view Yeshua as Messiah ben Yosef. BTW, I daven at a Reform shul, because it's close-by. I live in a rural area, and only bought the house I have because of that shul. It's a nice community, and actually very conservative. But perhaps that's just mid-western conservative values. I was raised Sephardic Orthodox.

I am interested in studying comparative religion and participating in interfaith dialogue. I am interested in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, and other religions. If you don't prostheletyze me, I don't prostheletyze you. Are we in agreement ?

I never proselytize, except to help my fellow Jew be a better Jew.

Please tell me more about the J4J cult. Were you a member ? Why do they "disguist" you ? Are MJ's in general any better or as bad as J4J ?

I ran into them of course. Never a member, they feel the same about me as I do about them. Every MJ congregation is different, none are as bad as J4J but some are little more than a church.

I've heard the J4J were having large increases in membership. Why is this sub so dead ?

What are your thoughts about Rabbi Zalman Schecter-Shalomi ?

Don't care if those members are gentiles; don't know; never heard of him.

 

[RabbiO]

......don't know; never heard of him.

As for Reb Zalman, as he often referred to, he is the godfather, so to speak, of the Jewish Renewal movement.

Peter

 

[RabbiO]

1) Hi Rabbio, I think fear is indeed part of how many Jews feel toward J4J. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

2) Also, why would I put a post about J4J in the Jewish DIR, it would just be moved back here

3) I believe Zardoz said he is a Jew, not a MJ. I think he considers himself Ebionite.

1) You brought up the fear issue not in regard to Jews for Jesus, but rather in regard to the participants on the Judaism DIR toward Jews who are, and not to put words in your mouth, independent minded.

2) I wasn't suggesting that you post about J4J in the Judaism DIR. My response was not about J4J. My comment was taking issue with what I consider to be a mischaracterization of the folks who populate the Judaism DIR.

3) I used the term "messianics" in a very broad way, understanding full well that using it that way covers a wide variety of people who do not necessarily share the same beliefs and/or practices.

Peter

 

[anotherglenda]

I don't post much here anymore, have plenty of threads where I've said all I need to say.

I just check it for new activity daily, see if any new MJ come on RF.

Scripture is true "JER 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Please persist & don't stop posting 'all you need to say' since Gentiles who have discovered the errancy of xianity begin seeking & need to find others who are on the path the seekers desire to be on.

...'Proselytizing' to promote proper approach to Torah observance, which is what Yeshua actually taught, I am all for. I am happy to explain the real Jewish meaning of these teachings, but hardly call it 'interfaith' as I am a Jew first and foremost.

Jesus was a Jew first and foremost too MT 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

but he was also a light to the Gentiles
IS 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

I never proselytize, except to help my fellow Jew be a better Jew.

Please have mercy on Gentiles too & be a light like Jesus to help us be better humans so we can reach the potential God intended when He created us.

 

[anotherglenda]

I worship Yahovah alone as the One true God and believe scripture that God is not a man ... and I believe that Jesus was a man and not God.

Jesus is my Rabbi/teacher and leader & I love and follow and embrace him & his instructions and his people and his God, just like Ruth loved and followed and embraced Naomi & her instructions and people and God.

I'm a Gentile with zero Jewish heritage & have not undergone conversion since I don't desire to deny Jesus, so I'm not a Jew. I believe that Jesus was a man anointed by God and thus 'Messiah' since that term means 'anointed' to the best of my knowledge. My beliefs in a nutshell are summed up in this verse "ACTS 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."

I reject Paul as a liar, but believe he was used by God as a test DEUT 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

I'm a disciple of Jesus. Am I a Messianic Jew? I don't know so you tell me.

 

[Avi1001]

1) You brought up the fear issue not in regard to Jews for Jesus, but rather in regard to the participants on the Judaism DIR toward Jews who are, and not to put words in your mouth, independent minded.

Hi Rabbio, I think there is fear on both levels, but especially of J4J. Thanks for clarifying.

2) I wasn't suggesting that you post about J4J in the Judaism DIR. My response was not about J4J. My comment was taking issue with what I consider to be a mischaracterization of the folks who populate the Judaism DIR.

No worries. Those guys are my buddies. We're part of a Covenental Community .

3) I used the term "messianics" in a very broad way, understanding full well that using it that way covers a wide variety of people who do not necessarily share the same beliefs and/or practices.
Peter

Does it go beyond J4J and MJ's ? Please explain your full understanding of the term 'messianics".

 

[Zardoz]

Scripture is true "JER 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Please persist & don't stop posting 'all you need to say' since Gentiles who have discovered the errancy of xianity begin seeking & need to find others who are on the path the seekers desire to be on.

Then they have would have come to the right place. Welcome to RF, BTW.

If you would be so kind, please check out my posts on this forum wearing the label 'Messianic Midrash'. There's only four of them, way back on page 4 or so. I'd be interested to know opinions on them, I posted them long ago but doubt very many have read them.

Jesus was a Jew first and foremost too MT 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

but he was also a light to the Gentiles
IS 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Please have mercy on Gentiles too & be a light like Jesus to help us be better humans so we can reach the potential God intended when He created us.

I take my responsibility of being a Light unto the Gentiles seriously. I'm a priest of the most high G-d, I live to serve the family of Man, not the other way around.

 

[Zardoz]

I worship Yahovah alone as the One true God and believe scripture that God is not a man ... and I believe that Jesus was a man and not God.

Jesus is my Rabbi/teacher and leader & I love and follow and embrace him & his instructions and his people and his God, just like Ruth loved and followed and embraced Naomi & her instructions and people and God.

I'm a Gentile with zero Jewish heritage & have not undergone conversion since I don't desire to deny Jesus, so I'm not a Jew. I believe that Jesus was a man anointed by God and thus 'Messiah' since that term means 'anointed' to the best of my knowledge. My beliefs in a nutshell are summed up in this verse "ACTS 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."

I reject Paul as a liar, but believe he was used by God as a test DEUT 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

I'm a disciple of Jesus. Am I a Messianic Jew? I don't know so you tell me.

Not all need be a Jew to be a disciple of Yeshua. You can be a Righteous Gentile and adhere to the Seven Laws of Noah and still follow his teachings. The path of the Jew is hard, and we are still in Exile. You are right that conversion would be a problem, with what the Bet Din would assume about your beliefs, however erroneous.

Paul I do not think lied in his heart, he was lead to provide Edom (Rome) with a faith that they could accept and would fit their nature, to correct their shortcomings. All part of G-d's plan.

 

[anotherglenda]

Then they have would have come to the right place. Welcome to RF, BTW.

Thank you. May God lead other seekers here also.

If you would be so kind, please check out my posts on this forum wearing the label 'Messianic Midrash'. There's only four of them, way back on page 4 or so. I'd be interested to know opinions on them, I posted them long ago but doubt very many have read them.

Please forgive my limited understanding & simple outlook (aka 'ignorance' & 'short focus') ... I lack your knowledge and understanding so I had considered things in a more simplistic manner & found your articles interesting & a couple way beyond what I could ever have imagined & maybe beyond my ability to fully comprehend. I don't truly know about angels or evolution and with limited capacity I tend to focus on what is easier to absorb (eg the teachings of Jesus). You may be right in what you wrote ... and my considerations may be wrong and I don't mind because 'maybe's' are acceptable to me ... no competition about who is right or wrong since 'maybe's' allow all could be wrong ... but you are blessed with insights I'm grateful you share thank you.

1 Creation of Man (ritual, Darwin, Earth, Eden, soul)
I agree that God created us in His Spiritual image since God has no physical form so did not create us in a physical image of Himself ... and clarified that very well at Sinai ...Deu 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

I consider the books of Moses as containing basic truths PLUS our personal story ... we were created and happily naive & granted beneficial Godly advice (even by our conscience if not by others) then came to the point of choice and must take responsibility for poor choice and then we end up in a bad place and start the trip through unknown territory to where God wants us to be ... some make it and some don't.

Back to the creation of man from a simple perspective ... for humans God used dirt to house the spirit He placed within us ... to me this means we are a mix of heaven (God's place) and earth (dirt) ... and when we think & do wrong both our bodies and our spirit witness against us DEUT 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,...

I think that is why Eve said she made a baby with God ... God alone can input living spirit to a baby while humans can only input matter ie genetic material

without God's Spirit we are simply beasts following nature laws, but God gave us Spirit to be above beasts & above nature laws which promote survival of the fittest ... God's above/super-nature laws are promotion of care for the weakest.

Personally I'd prefer to think I came from God doing something special rather than developing from a monkey ... and why would God create a monkey to later become a human when God could have created a human to begin with if He wanted humans since God had no problem creating other life forms? To me that doesn't make sense.

2. Understanding Creation (ritual, Creator, Earth, Torah, HaShem)
I can appreciate much of this post thank you. Thank you fro insights into justice and mercy.

3. Understanding Idolatry (priests, ritual, punishment, Creator, HaShem)
A simple mind (who lives in rural area) had considered things differently here too ... I considered animal sacrifices were speedy humane slaughter which would help feed the priests since they didn't have farm land or primary produce of their own like non-priests had. I didn't consider it disgusting since I like eating primary produce & I'd prefer farm animals to be killed swiftly & as humanely as possible rather than suffer slower more stressful deaths by other means eg by feral dogs or starvation or harsh weather eg fire season.
As a PCA I help with welfare & hygiene of people & their environments ... and I HATE dust-collectors and consider that is what idols are ... something useless but pretty which a person worships for no good reason since it doesn't do anything except sit and collect dust and someone has to serve it ... by cleaning it ... even though it hasn't become soiled by serving anybody unlike cooking implements etc which serve people and deserve to have effort spent on them since they aid us even if they aren't pretty. I see people look at a painting and adoringly go 'ooh, ahh' & pay heaps for something useless which they unwittingly worship. Many people worship money ... or nature or sport or other non-god which can't truly help them. Idols are very common in modern life but are often not recognised for what they are. Maybe the ancients were more aware and honest?

4. The story of Job
Interesting parable which attempts to connect Balaam, Jethro, Job & Moses ... but being a simpleton I like to look at each of these characters individually ... however I really appreciate some points made eg "Understand that the fruit of righteousness is kindness, as one is brought closer to G-d:"

Thank you for writing these posts for us to ponder.

I take my responsibility of being a Light unto the Gentiles seriously. I'm a priest of the most high G-d, I live to serve the family of Man, not the other way around.

I'm grateful you said that since I considered you scripturally as priest yet wasn't sure on your consideration
IS 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
IS 61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

apologies fro length of post but I couldn't comment on the 4 Messianic Midrash posts briefer ... plus I'm a waffler sorry
thank you for merciful consideration

 

[anotherglenda]

Not all need be a Jew to be a disciple of Yeshua. You can be a Righteous Gentile and adhere to the Seven Laws of Noah and still follow his teachings. The path of the Jew is hard, and we are still in Exile. You are right that conversion would be a problem, with what the Bet Din would assume about your beliefs, however erroneous.

Paul I do not think lied in his heart, he was lead to provide Edom (Rome) with a faith that they could accept and would fit their nature, to correct their shortcomings. All part of G-d's plan.

Thank you for your understanding reply.

I'm truly sorry the life of the Jew is hard and I'm truly sorry for continuing exile. May God please ease your difficulties and end the exile.

I tend to take things literally so when Jesus said to follow him ... and especially when I loved his entire behaviour ... I tend to want to follow him as much as possible and not limit my walk to 7 laws ... especially when God made all His laws for human benefit ... so why limit benefit to myself and others by ignoring any of His beneficial laws ... especially when the life of Jesus was so awesome that if that is how God's Law looks in action then I want all of it ... I can't be awesome like Jesus but I can sure try to raise my bar to imitate him to the best of my ability. Even being a tiny bit like him would make the world a better place if we all tried. I want to beneficially impact the tiny part of the world I interact with ... leave it hopefully a tiny bit better than I found it with God's help.

Yes, I can see your point about Paul. Thank you for sharing your insight.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Thank you for your understanding reply.

I'm truly sorry the life of the Jew is hard and I'm truly sorry for continuing exile. May God please ease your difficulties and end the exile.

I tend to take things literally so when Jesus said to follow him ... and especially when I loved his entire behaviour ... I tend to want to follow him as much as possible and not limit my walk to 7 laws ... especially when God made all His laws for human benefit ... so why limit benefit to myself and others by ignoring any of His beneficial laws ... especially when the life of Jesus was so awesome that if that is how God's Law looks in action then I want all of it ... I can't be awesome like Jesus but I can sure try to raise my bar to imitate him to the best of my ability. Even being a tiny bit like him would make the world a better place if we all tried. I want to beneficially impact the tiny part of the world I interact with ... leave it hopefully a tiny bit better than I found it with God's help.

Yes, I can see your point about Paul. Thank you for sharing your insight.

Hi, Anotheragenda

I came by, to see if there was any life in these old threads I started. Haven't been here for months. Good to see you came. "Messianic Jew" is actually a catch-all designation for people who are accepted by neither Jews nor Christians. Someone I fellowship with regularly thinks we ought to be called "Messy-anic", because there is no "neat" definition for us.

If you ever want to discuss doctrine, etc. with me, feel free to send me a private message (click on my name). I do check those -- they pop up and flash at me whenever I log in; and most of them are notifications of what a "bad boy" I am. Despite the latter, I read them; and if you write to me, I will answer you.

Shalom shalom

 

[Avi1001]

Hi Fellas,for the purposes of this thread, you can count me in as a Messianic Jew. After all I believe the Messiah will be coming. Mind you, I do not believe in a personal Messiah. I believe in a "Messianic Era". Are we on the same wavelength ?

By the way I am willing to discuss your views and change mine to yours if they are more logical. That's just how we roll. . I am willing to enter into prothyletyzing discussions with you, no worries.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Hi Fellas,for the purposes of this thread, you can count me in as a Messianic Jew. After all I believe the Messiah will be coming. Mind you, I do not believe in a personal Messiah. I believe in a "Messianic Era". Are we on the same wavelength ?

By the way I am willing to discuss your views and change mine to yours if they are more logical. That's just how we roll. . I am willing to enter into prothyletyzing discussions with you, no worries.

Any communication on these matters with me will have to be via a personal message. For reasons I am not allowed to discuss publicly, this is how it must be.

 

[Avi1001]

Any communication on these matters with me will have to be via a personal message. For reasons I am not allowed to discuss publicly, this is how it must be.

So you only communicate via Private Message ?

Who ever heard of such an arrangement ? Why would I come to a public forum to be told you will only communicate with me via Private Message ?

 

[anotherglenda]

Hi, Anotheragenda

Hi BlandOatmeal
I enjoyed your play on words with my name
my given name is Glenda ... like one of my workmates & also one of her & my clients ... so communication between us or rosters involved Glenda1 or Glenda2 to Glenda3 ... so I consider myself just anotherglenda ... but anotheragenda is a novel perspective also Maybe I should have called myself 'anotherheretic'

I came by, to see if there was any life in these old threads I started. Haven't been here for months. Good to see you came. "Messianic Jew" is actually a catch-all designation for people who are accepted by neither Jews nor Christians. Someone I fellowship with regularly thinks we ought to be called "Messy-anic", because there is no "neat" definition for us.

I'm very grateful you started this thread thank you & grateful for your kindness when you checked back in. Thank you. It's a comfy thread to share in and more classification options are also novel.

If you ever want to discuss doctrine, etc. with me, feel free to send me a private message (click on my name). I do check those -- they pop up and flash at me whenever I log in; and most of them are notifications of what a "bad boy" I am. Despite the latter, I read them; and if you write to me, I will answer you.

Thank you for your kind offer. You come across as a merciful person rather than bad. I've been labelled and accused of all manner of evils for my beliefs and I accept abuse but it saddens & drains me & I don't always have the energy to shrug it off unscathed, so I tend to stay a safe distance for a while to ensure I'm not in a war zone ... here to learn & share appreciation of God in peace among fellow frail imperfect people.

Shalom shalom

Shalom & blessings to you