Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So rocks and trees have behaviors. That really doesn't matter to me because I have no need to be right. That is just ego.
Just because rocks and trees have behaviors that does not mean that God has behaviors, but if you want to believe that God has behaviors be my guest. After all, all we can ever have are beliefs about God, we do not have any facts, so this is all a matter of opinion or belief.

"Behaviour" is just a matter of doing stuff. I don't think your God does anything because I don't think your God exists.

I already told you what I believe. I believe that God wills things to happen and then they happen according to God's Will.

[...]

God also ordains things to happen and then they happen as He ordained.

"Willing" things and "ordaining" things are examples of behaviours.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Behaviour" is just a matter of doing stuff. I don't think your God does anything because I don't think your God exists.

Behavior is a matter of animals or humans doing stuff. God does not do stuff, God wills and ordains stuff and then they happen.

"Willing" things and "ordaining" things are examples of behaviours.

Nope, not by any definition of the word behavior.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Behavior is a matter of animals or humans doing stuff. God does not do stuff, God wills and ordains stuff and then they happen.

"Willing" and "ordaining" are examples of "stuff."

... but I'm sure you're going to argue that, too.

Nope, not by any definition of the word behavior.

the way that someone or something behaves in a particular situation

a particular way of acting

The manner in which one acts or behaves.

the way in which something functions or operates

 

[Trailblazer]

... but I'm sure you're going to argue that, too.

Nope.

the way that someone or something behaves in a particular situation

a particular way of acting

The manner in which one acts or behaves.

the way in which something functions or operates

God does not behave or act or function or operate.

 

[Nimos]

I don't know if God thought this was 'perfect.' Nobody know what God thinks.

It really does not matter if most people consider it good.
Whether or not it is good or not is only OUR personal opinion based upon what WE consider good.

I do not think it is good but that does not mean that God is not good. Nobody can ever know if God is good or not, that is only a religious belief.

We can only go based on whatever is claimed about the God in question, otherwise we could just make up whatever Which isn't as such an issue, but then everything goes and then it would be more correct for a person to simply identify as a theist rather than a Muslim, Christian or Bahai, etc.

That is correct. Every single little thing you choose to do, or happens to you, would be on that sequence that God knows. Nothing will surprise him, it will play out exactly as he knows it will, but that is NOT because it is determined by God, it is because God knows everything we will ever CHOOSE to do.

I agree, it has nothing to do with God as I said several times in former posts, it could be me, you, or your cat, it doesn't matter.

You could post the sequence:

Born - A - B - V - G - M - T - Death <> (God knows) could be replaced by anything or even nothing.

This is what Determinism is, and a lot of people believe this to be true, and it might very well be.

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.

And if you are a hardcore determinist then free will does not exist, it is simply not possible in this scenario. (There are different views on this) But in this scenario we are talking about it would be hard determinism. Simply because WHATEVER!! "knows" the sequence will know it for all atoms etc. in the universe and none of these can be unaligned with "whoever/whatever" knows this sequence.

Since we are putting God in the position of being the one that knows, then he would also know the position or state of all atoms at any given time and therefore you can't do anything that would "screw" this up, everything single atom in the Universe has to be in the exact state that God knows. AGAIN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS GOD OR SOMEONE/SOMETHING ELSE!!

So you win! ~~
Most of what happened to Johnny in his life was not freely chosen. Rather, it happened as the result of things that Johnny had no control over.

Johnny is made up of atoms just as everything else is. Again you have to go to the smallest thing that makes up everything, in this case, lets just say atoms.

You see the issue when you get down to this level of detail and none of it can occur in anything other way that God knows, otherwise, he would be wrong.

That is why it doesn't work simply saying that "Johnny dropped out of high school", because it doesn't take into account any of these details. This is also why simply using a letter makes more sense because it is the state of the Universe in that particular moment when Johnny makes his decision, and this would be true for everyone when he is hit and killed by the car. Both Johnny and the person running him over need to be perfectly matched or what to say.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nope.

God does not behave or act or function or operate.

So your God does nothing? A few posts back, you were disagreeing with this. Make up your mind. Please.

 

[Trailblazer]

So your God does nothing? A few posts back, you were disagreeing with this. Make up your mind. Please.

Humans behave or act or function or operate.

You talk as though you think God is a human.
God is not a human. Therefore God does not behave or act or function or operate.
God wills things to happen and then they happen according to God's will.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can only go based on whatever is claimed about the God in question, otherwise we could just make up whatever Which isn't as such an issue, but then everything goes and then it would be more correct for a person to simply identify as a theist rather than a Muslim, Christian or Bahai, etc.

Yes, that is what we have to go on, what is claimed by the Messengers of God in various scriptures, since there is no other way to know anything about God. Whether or not we believe what was claimed about God in those scriptures is another matter altogether.

I agree, it has nothing to do with God as I said several times in former posts, it could be me, you, or your cat, it doesn't matter.

So are you saying that every single little thing you choose to do and everything that happens to you would be on that sequence that God knows, but it is not because God knows that sequence that you choose it or that it happens that way?

And you believe that would be the case for any entity who was all-knowing, e.g. me, you, or my cat?

You could post the sequence:

Born - A - B - V - G - M - T - Death <> (God knows) could be replaced by anything or even nothing.

This is what Determinism is, and a lot of people believe this to be true, and it might very well be.

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.

I know that determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action, but determinism does not entail that the person is not locked into one decision because God knows that is the decision he will make.

determinism the theory that everything that happens must happen as it does and could not have happened any other way

determinism

1. the theory that everything that happens must happen as it does and could not…

dictionary.cambridge.org

determinism the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
Definitions from Oxford Languages

And if you are a hardcore determinist then free will does not exist, it is simply not possible in this scenario. (There are different views on this) But in this scenario we are talking about it would be hard determinism. Simply because WHATEVER!! "knows" the sequence will know it for all atoms etc. in the universe and none of these can be unaligned with "whoever/whatever" knows this sequence.

Since we are putting God in the position of being the one that knows, then he would also know the position or state of all atoms at any given time and therefore you can't do anything that would "screw" this up, everything single atom in the Universe has to be in the exact state that God knows. AGAIN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT IS GOD OR SOMEONE/SOMETHING ELSE!!

It looks like we are right back to square one.
Please look at the definitions of determinism above. They say nothing about God or anyone else anyone knowing what will happen, that being the reason that things have to happen that way. Determinism is the philosophy that everything that happens is determined by something that happened in the past.

Determinism is the idea that everything that happens in the world is determined completely by previously existing causes.
Determinism - Definition and examples - Conceptually

You see the issue when you get down to this level of detail and none of it can occur in anything other way that God knows, otherwise, he would be wrong.

Nothing can occur in any way other than the way that God knows it will occur, but nothing occurs the way it does because God knows it will occur that way. In other words, God's knowledge is not the cause of anything that occurs. Other factors determine human behavior, whether they were determined by preceding events in one's life or chosen using free will.

I believe in deterministic free will.

I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.

 

[Nimos]

So are you saying that every single little thing you choose to do and everything that happens to you would be on that sequence that God knows, but it is not because God knows that sequence that you choose it or that it happens that way?

And you believe that would be the case for any entity who was all-knowing, e.g. me, you, or my cat?

Yes exactly.

The most correct way you can look at it, is the state of the Universe (meaning everything, every single atom) So imagine you took a picture of the Universe now and then waited 1 nanosecond and took another one. To display that we could do something like this.

T(0) = The creation of the Universe
T(X) = A picture of the Universe at a given time.

So we could put it on a string (the sequence)

T(0) --> T(1) --> T(2)........T(X) --> T(Now)

What you can then do using math and physics, is reverse it.

So we could look at the last picture and calculate for all atoms what happened in the last picture, which that we could figure out the state of the Universe at T(Now - 1) or simply write it as T(X-1).

This means that we could trace back everything, so eventually, we would get to:

T(Now -1) --> T(X-1)........T(2-1) --> T(1-1) --> T(0)

To simplify it even more, imagine having two balls.

Ball(0) and Ball(1)

We strike Ball(0) which then hits Ball(1) which then starts to move in a certain direction at a given speed. So again, now we pause it and based on the direction and speed of Ball(1) we can figure out exactly when Ball(0) hit it and which state both the balls were in when the hit occurred.
And that could only happen in one specific way, if Ball(0) hit Ball(1) with any other force or at another angle, then Ball(1) wouldn't be in the position it was when we paused it.

Now replace the Ball(0) and Ball(1) with atoms that ultimately make up the pictures of the Universe at a given point in time, there are simply trillions and trillions of balls/atoms.

So this would be the sequence. And hopefully, it makes sense, why it doesn't matter whether God, you, me or your cat knows. As long as the sequence is determined.

Therefore there can't be free will, because all the atoms need to be at the exact position at any given point in time. And that is the idea behind hard determinism and why free will can't exist.

So when religious people claim that God has perfect foreknowledge, he would know what all these pictures of the Universe at any point in time would look like and even go further than what I wrote above.

T(before) --> T(0) --> T(1) --> T(2)........T(X) --> T(Now) --> T(Future)

It looks like we are right back to square one.

I hope the above explanation demonstrates it.

I believe in deterministic free will.

That would be compatibilism which is the idea that free will can exist within a deterministic Universe. But again the issue you run into is that God knows everything.

If you look at your brain not only is it made up of atoms, which again has to be in a certain position. God also knows all your thoughts etc. at any given point in time and these also need to be exactly as God knows they will. So we are talking about extreme determinism here

Because in theory, you could do the same with thoughts as I did with the state of the Universe above. Thoughts don't just appear out of nothing but are related to former experiences or knowledge.

 

[Trailblazer]

So this would be the sequence. And hopefully, it makes sense, why it doesn't matter whether God, you, me or your cat knows. As long as the sequence is determined.

Therefore there can't be free will, because all the atoms need to be at the exact position at any given point in time. And that is the idea behind hard determinism and why free will can't exist.

I was talking about human choices, and the debate is about whether those are determined by something external to the person or freely chosen by the person. How do you know that these choices are determined by something external to self?

So when religious people claim that God has perfect foreknowledge, he would know what all these pictures of the Universe at any point in time would look like and even go further than what I wrote above.

T(before) --> T(0) --> T(1) --> T(2)........T(X) --> T(Now) --> T(Future)

I thought that we had agreed that God has perfect foreknowledge but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of what happens.

That would be compatibilism which is the idea that free will can exist within a deterministic Universe. But again the issue you run into is that God knows everything.

Again, why is it an issue that God knows everything? What God knows is not the cause of anything that happens, all-knowing is an attribute of God.

If you look at your brain not only is it made up of atoms, which again has to be in a certain position. God also knows all your thoughts etc. at any given point in time and these also need to be exactly as God knows they will. So we are talking about extreme determinism here

Our thoughts will be what God knows they will be, but God's knowledge of how they will be is not the cause of their position.
If a person was going to do x and they changed their mind and decided to do y, God would have always known that person was going to do y because God is all-knowing, but they did not do y because God knew they would do y, they did y because they chose to do y.

Because in theory, you could do the same with thoughts as I did with the state of the Universe above. Thoughts don't just appear out of nothing but are related to former experiences or knowledge.

That's true. All our thoughts are related to former experiences or knowledge, so in that sense you could say they are deterministic.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

As a parent, one has the power to raise a child in a protective "bubble" and prevent any pain that might befall them, but if one didn't allow their child to face a degree of trials and tribulations through their childhood, is that effective parenting? Will a child who has faced no pain in their life be developed enough to be prepared to live by themselves in the real world?

Now translate this relationship between the parent and children to God and His children.

Surely the best approach is balance, though? Exposing my children to every pain is as harmful and counterproductive (or more) than exposing them to none.
My intent as a parent is to let my children fall and graze their knees, but not where the consequence resembles the side of a cliff.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Surely the best approach is balance, though? Exposing my children to every pain is as harmful and counterproductive (or more) than exposing them to none.
My intent as a parent is to let my children fall and graze their knees, but not where the consequence resembles the side of a cliff.

I'm not saying that allowing a child to be severely injured is a good idea.

While my daughter, my granddaughter, and I were eating dinner last night, my granddaughter was giving my daughter a hard time about taking two more bites of food. My granddaughter threw her head back, and then forward, knocking her head into her bowl. Clearly in pain, before my daughter could rush in with the "my poor baby," my granddaughter's eyes met mine, and I asked her "what did we learn from that?" She didn't respond, but the behavior changed immediately after.

I don't think having my granddaughter wear a helmet each time she sits down to eat or having her eat from a rubber bowl would be productive moving forward. She now knows the danger of tossing her head around in protest probably isn't the best course of action.

 

[Nimos]

Again, why is it an issue that God knows everything? What God knows is not the cause of anything that happens, all-knowing is an attribute of God.

Let's just ignore God for the moment, so we now live in a Universe without God or any supernatural things.

If we compare the two setups, a nondeterministic Universe vs a deterministic Universe and we use the same idea as before with the pictures of the Universe and Johnny.

nondeterministic
T(0) --> T(1) --> T(2).......T(Now) --> T(Future)

T(Future) is based on whatever Johnny decides at T(Now). But no one knows the exact sequence in the future, it will change based on what Johnny decides, so he might go to University or he might join the military.

That means that T(Future) can't be fully known, because it depends on Johnny's choice. We can predict the future in certain cases, like the position of planets etc. because we know the physical circumstances around it, speed, mass, and whatever is needed to predict the movement of objects, but we don't know what Johnny will decide, only he does when he makes the choice.

So given the sequence isn't known, that means that Johnny's choices/actions (Free will) will influence the future.

Deterministic
Will do this shortly since we have talked a lot about it.

T(0) --> T(1) --> T(2).......T(Now) --> T(Now+1) --> T(Now+2) --> T(Future)

If the sequence is deterministic, then whatever Johnny does, has to align with the next image meaning that whatever he does, it will always end up in T(Now+1), because that is required to get to T(Now+2).

So if T(Now+1) is Johnny joining the military, then Johnny can't choose to go to University at T(Now), yet Johnny might get the impression at T(Now) that he is about to choose between the military and University and him choosing the military was his own free will choice, but it is nothing but an illusion because he has to end up in T(Now+1), it is already determined beforehand.

So the difference between the two setups, is that in the nondeterministic one, Johnny's choice/actions (Free will) influence the future of the Universe, whereas in the deterministic one, nothing Johnny does influences anything, it is happening in the exact way as the sequence dictate it will.

Keep in mind, we are purely talking about a Universe without God or any supernatural things because it doesn't matter.

It is purely a question of whether we live in a deterministic Universe or not, which there are different opinions about, but again, you don't need God to have this discussion, but that is not what we are trying to solve here

But the reason why God is irrelevant for this, is because we aren't sure whether we actually have free will or not.

For instance, if you read this:
Published in the prestigious Nature journal today, an experiment carried out in the Future Minds Lab at UNSW School of Psychology showed that free choices about what to think can be predicted from patterns of brain activity 11 seconds before people consciously chose what to think about.

The experiment consisted of asking people to freely choose between two visual patterns of red and green stripes – one of them running horizontally, the other vertically – before consciously imagining them while being observed in a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) machine.

The participants were also asked to rate how strongly they felt their visualisations of the patterns were after choosing them, again while researchers recorded their brain activity during the process.

Not only could the researchers predict which pattern they would choose, they could also predict how strongly the participants were to rate their visualisations. With the assistance of machine learning, the researchers were successful at making above-chance predictions of the participants’ volitional choices at an average of 11 seconds before the thoughts became conscious.

The brain areas that revealed information about the future choices were located in executive areas of the brain – where our conscious decision-making is made – as well as visual and subcortical structures, suggesting an extended network of areas responsible for the birth of thoughts.

However, the researchers caution against assuming that all choices are by nature predetermined by pre-existing brain activity.

“Our results cannot guarantee that all choices are preceded by involuntary images, but it shows that this mechanism exists, and it potentially biases our everyday choices,” Professor Pearson says.

If whatever we do is decided before we are consciously aware of it, it raises some questions about free will. an average of 11 seconds is quite a long time.
We as humans don't experience this, when we have a thought it appears to us instantly, meaning we experience it as being instantly consciously known to us. This would mean that Johnny decides to go to the military might already have been decided 10 seconds before he himself is even aware of it, but to him, it appears to be his own choice.

This is quite interesting in itself, how the hell does the brain do this without us being consciously aware, the brain is after all part of us? It seems like nonsense that it is even remotely possible.

Now let's try to bring back God

When you say that God knows everything, that means that he knows this sequence:

T(-1) --> T(0) --> T(1) --> T(2).......T(Now) --> T(Now+1) --> T(Now+2) --> T(Future)

The problem is not that God knows it, the problem is that by saying that God (anyone/anything) knows it, automatically means that you jump to the conclusion that the sequence is determined. Again let me stress it, this is also true even without God (You, me, your cat would do just fine as well).

You seem to get stuck at God (Someone) knowing it, it doesn't matter, nothing could know it and it could still be deterministic, simply because T(2) is decided by T(1), at a much lower level than we humans can comprehend, if it is based on how atoms interact with each other, based on physical laws, then we do not influence it, things happen because of how these atoms interact, so just as planets orbit the sun in a predictable way, so will everything we do, we simply don't have the abilities yet to make these predictions, yet the study above, seem to indicate that at least in certain cases, we can actually predict what humans do even before they are themselves aware of it.

Try to first think of it without including God, simply ignore him. If you can see how this could be true without God, then adding God makes no difference, except that in a Universe without God, no one is currently claiming with 100% certainty that this sequence is known, compared to when you add God and then conclude that he knows with 100% certainty, then there can't be free will.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm not saying that allowing a child to be severely injured is a good idea.

While my daughter, my granddaughter, and I were eating dinner last night, my granddaughter was giving my daughter a hard time about taking two more bites of food. My granddaughter threw her head back, and then forward, knocking her head into her bowl. Clearly in pain, before my daughter could rush in with the "my poor baby," my granddaughter's eyes met mine, and I asked her "what did we learn from that?" She didn't respond, but the behavior changed immediately after.

I don't think having my granddaughter wear a helmet each time she sits down to eat or having her eat from a rubber bowl would be productive moving forward. She now knows the danger of tossing her head around in protest probably isn't the best course of action.

I might have missed the context...I'm just trying to work out what basic good parenting techniques have to do with God and humanity...

 

[Trailblazer]

Now let's try to bring back God

When you say that God knows everything, that means that he knows this sequence:

T(-1) --> T(0) --> T(1) --> T(2).......T(Now) --> T(Now+1) --> T(Now+2) --> T(Future)

The problem is not that God knows it, the problem is that by saying that God (anyone/anything) knows it, automatically means that you jump to the conclusion that the sequence is determined.

Let's stick to what God knows since I think that is how this whole discussion got started.

Yes, God knows everything in the sequence above, since God knows everything, beginning to end.
Why would that mean that the sequence is determined rather than freely chosen?

Some people just happened to be discussing this on a Baha'i forum, and I copied what one person wrote since I think he was able to explain it better than I have been able to.

In the context of linear time on earth, many aspects of existence are not predestined and are contingent and we have free will. Yet, in the spiritual realm, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable such that it is possible to see the end in the beginning. This is one reason why the Messengers of God, Prophets, and certain saints and others can sometimes foresee events in the future.

God, being eternal and omniscient, obviously must know and foresee all, but, in the context of time and space we live in, we still are subject to random and contingent elements and have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time.

You seem to get stuck at God (Someone) knowing it, it doesn't matter, nothing could know it and it could still be deterministic, simply because T(2) is decided by T(1), at a much lower level than we humans can comprehend, if it is based on how atoms interact with each other, based on physical laws, then we do not influence it, things happen because of how these atoms interact, so just as planets orbit the sun in a predictable way, so will everything we do, we simply don't have the abilities yet to make these predictions, yet the study above, seem to indicate that at least in certain cases, we can actually predict what humans do even before they are themselves aware of it.

You are correct. it doesn't matter, nothing could know it and it could still be deterministic, simply because T(2) is decided by T(1),
Or it could be nondeterministic, if T(2) is not decided by T(1).

Try to first think of it without including God, simply ignore him. If you can see how this could be true without God, then adding God makes no difference, except that in a Universe without God, no one is currently claiming with 100% certainty that this sequence is known, compared to when you add God and then conclude that he knows with 100% certainty, then there can't be free will.

God knows the sequence with absolute certainty but that does not mean humans have no free will, since what God knows does not determine what happens in this contingent world. See my explanation above.

In other words, what God knows is not the cause anything to happen in this world. Man's volition and action cause things to happen.
Whether man's actions are deterministic or freely chosen is a separate matter.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[Nimos]

Some people just happened to be discussing this on a Baha'i forum, and I copied what one person wrote since I think he was able to explain it better than I have been able to.

In the context of linear time on earth, many aspects of existence are not predestined and are contingent and we have free will. Yet, in the spiritual realm, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable such that it is possible to see the end in the beginning. This is one reason why the Messengers of God, Prophets, and certain saints and others can sometimes foresee events in the future.

God, being eternal and omniscient, obviously must know and foresee all, but, in the context of time and space we live in, we still are subject to random and contingent elements and have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time.

But this is not an explanation based on logic, but rather wishful thinking and jumping to conclusions. If we are talking about free will, we as individuals have to be in control of the choices we make, that is essentially the idea behind it.

"In the context of linear time on earth, many aspects of existence are not predestined and are contingent and we have free will."

Those things that are random, whatever those might be? We as humans are not in control of otherwise they wouldn't be random. So randomness doesn't help us in regards to free will. Assuming we have free will, we can to the best of our abilities try to take the randomness into account. But the key word here is "Assuming we have free will", but that is what we are trying to figure out. Yet the person jumps to the conclusion that we have free will.

"Yet, in the spiritual realm, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable such that it is possible to see the end in the beginning."

This does not explain anything, but is rather jumping to a conclusion about something that is assumed to exist, yet hasn't been demonstrated, which is the "spiritual realm", and somehow this person knows how "time and space" and all events etc. work here in this realm? You are a smart person, and even if you are convinced that the spiritual realm exists, the conclusion this person makes still needs to be demonstrated. If we assume this was purely a discussion between the two of you about the spiritual realm, so both of you are convinced it exists. How on Earth does this person know how the spiritual world functions?

"This is one reason why the Messengers of God, Prophets, and certain saints and others can sometimes foresee events in the future."

Based on the last conclusion, he then uses that to draw the conclusion that this is one of the reasons how the messengers of God can sometime foresee events of the future? I thought they could see it because they were informed by God? I thought that was the general idea behind the Messengers? Both in the bible and the Quran from what I know, God speaks to people. I have never heard it mentioned that they could do this because of time and space being collapsed. But that aside, using an unjustified conclusion to draw another just doesn't work.

"God, being eternal and omniscient, obviously must know and foresee all"

This is probably the only assumption that I agree with because that is what we have agreed on in this very discussion about free will.

"but, in the context of time and space we live in, we still are subject to random and contingent elements and have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time."

Then the person repeats the first conclusion. And as I have already demonstrated at the start, randomness isn't helping free will, because we are still not in control of it.

I hope you can understand why I don't think this offers any explanation?

Compare that to my argument. Simply using "cause and effect", if everything has a cause, then T(2) relies on T(1). And as far as I know, everything in the Universe is following this idea of "cause and effect", maybe not on a quantum level, but in the general sense. If God is real, then he might be the only one not being subject to this, because he is said to be eternal, but cause and effect would still apply. The Universe would be caused by God.
Assuming that God doesn't exist, then the Big Bang might be the only thing, yet we don't know, because we don't know what happened before, so that is an open question, and also there might be things in the Universe we are unaware of that works differently.

You see the huge difference here, there is absolutely no way for me to falsify this person's position, or for him to demonstrate it. Yet it would be extremely easy to demonstrate in the general understanding of the Universe that cause and effect weren't true. But from what we know about cause and effect, then you kicking a ball is the cause of the ball flying somewhere, and the ball hitting the insect is the cause of its death, the death of the insect is the cause that another insect is able to eat it etc.

God knows the sequence with absolute certainty but that does not mean humans have no free will

But things need to align with what God knows. The insect in the above short example, had to die, because God knew that it was going to get hit by a ball, he also knew that you would kick the ball, he also knew that you would make the choice to kick the ball, he also knew that you would be in the position near the ball so you could make the choice.... etc. Eventually, we get to... he also knew you would be born. If any of these steps don't align, then the insect is not going to get killed by the ball and then God is wrong. Let me stress, God is not the cause of the insect dying, that is the ball, God simply knows it and can't be wrong, so the ball has to kill the insect. Even though we probably could make that argument since he created the Universe in the first place and knew it was going to happen, but in a technical sense he didn't, he just allowed it

 

[Comradio251]

The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.

Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.

responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with:

• It's her responsibility to ensure the project finishes on time.
• She takes her responsibilities as a nurse very seriously.

responsibility

Well, I think that it's God's responsibility to take care of the universe if he actually created it, don't you think? An analogy would be like tending to a garden. You created the foundation for your garden, you sow the seeds and eventually you have to tend to the plants. It's your responsibility to tend to the garden since you created it with a purpose in mind and want it to flourish. Well, in the same context, God should be responsible for tending to what he created and that is the universe. Of course, if He actually does or doesn't, I can't tell you but it's just my opinion.

I mean, I'd be pretty heartstruck if there's no God out there making sure the stars, planets and solar systems are working the way they're supposed to because I think we'd be in trouble then.

 

[Nimos]

It's your responsibility to tend to the garden since you created it with a purpose in mind and want it to flourish. Well, in the same context, God should be responsible for tending to what he created and that is the universe.

It depends on what God wants because essentially his opinion is the only thing that matters. Even if he created it, he might not particularly care about it, maybe he moved on and created another Universe and we are just leftovers

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, I think that it's God's responsibility to take care of the universe if he actually created it, don't you think? An analogy would be like tending to a garden. You created the foundation for your garden, you sow the seeds and eventually you have to tend to the plants. It's your responsibility to tend to the garden since you created it with a purpose in mind and want it to flourish. Well, in the same context, God should be responsible for tending to what he created and that is the universe. Of course, if He actually does or doesn't, I can't tell you but it's just my opinion.

I mean, I'd be pretty heartstruck if there's no God out there making sure the stars, planets and solar systems are working the way they're supposed to because I think we'd be in trouble then.

I believe that God rules and maintains the universe, such as making sure the stars, planets and solar systems are working the way they're supposed to, but God does not rule or maintain the lives of humans because God delegated that responsibility to humans when God gave humans free will to make their own choice and act on them. God also gave man the responsibility to care for the world that they live in.

In your analogy of the garden, it would be like a gardener who created the garden and then hired a gardener to take care of his garden.
The gardener knew when he created the garden that he would be hiring someone to maintain the garden, thus delegating that responsibility to someone else.

 

[Trailblazer]

But this is not an explanation based on logic, but rather wishful thinking and jumping to conclusions. If we are talking about free will, we as individuals have to be in control of the choices we make, that is essentially the idea behind it.

"In the context of linear time on earth, many aspects of existence are not predestined and are contingent and we have free will."

Those things that are random, whatever those might be? We as humans are not in control of otherwise they wouldn't be random. So randomness doesn't help us in regards to free will. Assuming we have free will, we can to the best of our abilities try to take the randomness into account. But the key word here is "Assuming we have free will", but that is what we are trying to figure out. Yet the person jumps to the conclusion that we have free will.

First, allow me to apologize for taking so long to respond to this post. I did not forget you, I was just busy, and I wanted to give your post the attention it deserves.

And maybe it is a good thing that I waited, since there is a discussion about free will on another thread that has given me some ideas.

First, when the person you are quoting said we have free will, he did not mean we have unlimited free will.
Second, that person said "we still are subject to random and contingent elements and have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time." That means that some things that happen are random and some things are chosen with free will.

Things that happen at random are things we did not choose. For example, in 2005 I git hit by a car while riding my bicycle to work. I did not choose that, I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It could have happened to anyone if they had been where I was. It was an accident. The man did not intend to hit me. He was cited for the accident but he did not go to jail because he did not intentionally hit me, and because it was an accident his insurance paid out.

"Yet, in the spiritual realm, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable such that it is possible to see the end in the beginning."

This does not explain anything, but is rather jumping to a conclusion about something that is assumed to exist, yet hasn't been demonstrated, which is the "spiritual realm", and somehow this person knows how "time and space" and all events etc. work here in this realm? You are a smart person, and even if you are convinced that the spiritual realm exists, the conclusion this person makes still needs to be demonstrated. If we assume this was purely a discussion between the two of you about the spiritual realm, so both of you are convinced it exists. How on Earth does this person know how the spiritual world functions?

That is a fair question. Since this was posted on a Baha'i forum we were both talking the same language. In other words, we both 'believe' that a spiritual realm exists beyond this earthly realm if existence (although these realms are intertwined, I don't want to get into that right now.)

So we are not jumping to a conclusion about something that is assumed to exist, we are believing in something that we believe exists.

No, the spiritual realm has not been demonstrated. How could it be demonstrated from the material world, given it is beyond the material world? Could anyone demonstrate to a baby in the womb that the material world which he would soon be born into exists before he was born?

"This is one reason why the Messengers of God, Prophets, and certain saints and others can sometimes foresee events in the future."

Based on the last conclusion, he then uses that to draw the conclusion that this is one of the reasons how the messengers of God can sometime foresee events of the future? I thought they could see it because they were informed by God? I thought that was the general idea behind the Messengers? Both in the bible and the Quran from what I know, God speaks to people. I have never heard it mentioned that they could do this because of time and space being collapsed. But that aside, using an unjustified conclusion to draw another just doesn't work.

The reason that Messengers of God can sometimes foresee events of the future IS because they are informed by God.
To be clear, I am not saying that they could do this because of time and space being collapsed....
The reason that Messengers KNOW that in the spiritual realm, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable such that it is possible to see the end in the beginning is because they were informed by God of these things.

"God, being eternal and omniscient, obviously must know and foresee all"

This is probably the only assumption that I agree with because that is what we have agreed on in this very discussion about free will.

Good.

"but, in the context of time and space we live in, we still are subject to random and contingent elements and have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time."

Then the person repeats the first conclusion. And as I have already demonstrated at the start, randomness isn't helping free will, because we are still not in control of it.

I hope you can understand why I don't think this offers any explanation?

As I said above, that person said "we still are subject to random and contingent elements and have free will and the ability to alter the course of certain events in time." That means that some things that happen are random and some things are chosen with free will.

In short, we are not in control of anything that happens at random, like me getting hit by a car while riding my bike.

Compare that to my argument. Simply using "cause and effect", if everything has a cause, then T(2) relies on T(1). And as far as I know, everything in the Universe is following this idea of "cause and effect", maybe not on a quantum level, but in the general sense. If God is real, then he might be the only one not being subject to this, because he is said to be eternal, but cause and effect would still apply. The Universe would be caused by God.

I agree that in general everything has a cause, and the effect is because of the cause, so cause and effect exists.

The universe was caused by God but God is not subject to cause and effect since God does not exist on this material realm of existence where everything is cause and effect. God is like an onlooker seeing what humans are doing in this contingent realm of existence, where everything is contingent upon a prior cause.

Assuming that God doesn't exist, then the Big Bang might be the only thing, yet we don't know, because we don't know what happened before, so that is an open question, and also there might be things in the Universe we are unaware of that works differently.

There is much that we don't know, many open questions, whether we believe that God exists or not.

You see the huge difference here, there is absolutely no way for me to falsify this person's position, or for him to demonstrate it. Yet it would be extremely easy to demonstrate in the general understanding of the Universe that cause and effect weren't true. But from what we know about cause and effect, then you kicking a ball is the cause of the ball flying somewhere, and the ball hitting the insect is the cause of its death, the death of the insect is the cause that another insect is able to eat it etc.

You are correct. There is absolutely no way for you to falsify this person's position, or for him to demonstrate it.
You are also correct in saying tat it is easy to demonstrate cause and effect. Everything in this contingent world has a cause and an effect. If I don't get enough sleep the effect is that I cannot function properly. If I don't do my job the effect will be that I lose my job.

But things need to align with what God knows. The insect in the above short example, had to die, because God knew that it was going to get hit by a ball, he also knew that you would kick the ball, he also knew that you would make the choice to kick the ball, he also knew that you would be in the position near the ball so you could make the choice.... etc.

Things will align with what God knows but they will not align with what God knows because God knows they will happen.
The insect in the above example will die, but not because God knew it would die. It will die because the ball hit the insect. Ttat is back to cause and effect.

Eventually, we get to... he also knew you would be born. If any of these steps don't align, then the insect is not going to get killed by the ball and then God is wrong. Let me stress, God is not the cause of the insect dying, that is the ball, God simply knows it and can't be wrong, so the ball has to kill the insect.

The insect will get killed by the ball if the ball hits the insect. Let me stress, God is not the cause of the insect dying, that is the ball, God simply knows it and can't be wrong because God is all-knowing.

But the ball does not have to kill the insect. Everything in this contingent world is subject to change at any moment in time (unless it was irrevocable fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject.) So if Johnny had not been playing with the ball then it would not have killed the insect. If that had been the case, God would have known that the insect would not be killed because God is all-knowing.

Likewise, the car did not have to run into me when I was riding my bike to work. If I had chosen not to ride my bike to work that day I would not have been hit by that car. If that driver had not been in his cell phone he would not have hit me. These were choices that people made that led to the cause and effect.

Even though we probably could make that argument since he created the Universe in the first place and knew it was going to happen, but in a technical sense he didn't, he just allowed it

God did not 'allow' the Universe to come into existence, God intentionally caused the Universe to come into existence. Exactly how that happened only God knows.