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why was the tree in the garden?
- Thread starter mattp
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
God wanted Adam and Eve to be able to experience both good and evil. Being able to discern between the two and choose the right when confronted with a decision is part of progressing. Had they remained in Eden forever, they would have been unable to progress. What they did, did not thwart His plan; it set that plan on the road to fulfillment.mattp said:
Polaris
Active Member
mattp said:
Interesting question. I think it mainly had to do with the establishment of our agency. If there were no possible wrong choices that could be made, then our ability to chose right over wrong becomes meaningless and makes learning much more difficult. There is good reason it was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Upon making a wrong decision and having to be subject to the consequences Adam and Eve learned an important lesson and better understood the importance of obediance to God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
God doesn't make anybody do anything. But He certainly did allow Satan to tempt them, and He knew they would not be able to withstand the temptation. Otherwise, why would He have appointed a Savior for them before the incident even took place. If He had truly wanted them to stay in Eden forever, He certainly would have been able to make sure that happened.mattp said:
Katzpur said:
You said it was part of his plan. That would mean that he made it happen. He also allowed satan to tempt Job, he did not make him do it. And I,m not quite sure what you are talking about with the savior before the incident, please elaborate! He did not want them to stay in Eden forever, he wanted them to fill the entire earth.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
From my point of view, the tree and its fruit is entirely symbolic of what we call Gnosis (hence why the tree is called the tree of knowledge).
The God of Eden could not hide knowledge as its always there, you can't get rid of it, you can only cover it up, hence Him telling Adam and Eve that to eat the fruit would kill them.
The snake we view as a revealer, sometimes Jesus, sometimes other Gnostic Aeons. The snake led them to gnosis and thus to spiritual freedom.
The God of Eden could not hide knowledge as its always there, you can't get rid of it, you can only cover it up, hence Him telling Adam and Eve that to eat the fruit would kill them.
The snake we view as a revealer, sometimes Jesus, sometimes other Gnostic Aeons. The snake led them to gnosis and thus to spiritual freedom.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No it doesn't, at least not to my way of thinking. He gives each of us our agency, or free will. He does, however, know how we will react when presented with a given set of challenges.mattp said:
In Revelation 13:8, Jesus is referred to as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Jesus role was outlined before Adam and Eve ever set foot on the earth.
I assume you're referring to God's commandment, "Multiply and replenish the Earth." Yes, He wanted them to do that. I don't believe they had the capacity to do that until they were cast out of Eden.
Smoke
Done here.
One often hears that God set the tree in the garden to give people a choice; they must have the option of disobedience, or their obedience was valueless.
But God must have known they'd take the fruit, so in a way, he set them up, right? And what kind of people did God really want, in that scenario? Just blind, obedient gardeners. The garden, apparently, was for God's own pleasure: "they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day."
The only thing Adam and Eve were guilty of, in this way of looking at it, was a failure blind obedience. After all, they had no knowledge of good and evil till after they took the fruit.
How does God react?
To the serpent: Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
To the woman: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
To the man: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
So in one fell swoop we have an explanation for the hardships of life, an explanation of the subjugation of woman to man, and a story about why the serpent has no legs. It's a myth in which God doesn't come off looking too good.
The serpent in the story, though, tells Eve the truth:
It's clearly an ancient myth of enlightenement, predating Israelite monotheism, in which the man and the woman defy God to achieve enlightenment. As a result, they are cursed by the angry and jealous God. It's interesting that God gives no reason for cursing the woman, but curses the man specifically because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it.
But when everything is said and done: the serpent told the truth, God lied and reacted badly, and when it was all over the man and the woman were enlightened, but suffering the punishment of a jealous God.
But God must have known they'd take the fruit, so in a way, he set them up, right? And what kind of people did God really want, in that scenario? Just blind, obedient gardeners. The garden, apparently, was for God's own pleasure: "they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day."
The only thing Adam and Eve were guilty of, in this way of looking at it, was a failure blind obedience. After all, they had no knowledge of good and evil till after they took the fruit.
How does God react?
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God is angry and jealous because the man is become as one of us, and immediately takes action to keep the newly-powerful humans from becoming even more powerful. His vengeance is swift; he curses all three:
To the serpent: Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
To the woman: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
To the man: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
So in one fell swoop we have an explanation for the hardships of life, an explanation of the subjugation of woman to man, and a story about why the serpent has no legs. It's a myth in which God doesn't come off looking too good.
The serpent in the story, though, tells Eve the truth:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The serpent's promise is true, and is confirmed by what God says when he learns that the humans have taken the fruit: Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.
It's clearly an ancient myth of enlightenement, predating Israelite monotheism, in which the man and the woman defy God to achieve enlightenment. As a result, they are cursed by the angry and jealous God. It's interesting that God gives no reason for cursing the woman, but curses the man specifically because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it.
But when everything is said and done: the serpent told the truth, God lied and reacted badly, and when it was all over the man and the woman were enlightened, but suffering the punishment of a jealous God.
cardero
Citizen Mod
In the Garden of Eden the concept of conflict was introduced to humankind. The original serpent does not stand for Satan, or sin, or evil. It stands for fear, doubt, and conflict. When Adam and Eve faced the choice of eating the symbolic fruit of understanding, they approached it as a conflict instead of a decision.
FFH
Veteran Member
There must be a possibility of a wrong choice, or an opposition in all things, in order for man to tested, to see if we would rather follow God's commands or Satan's voice. Our integrity must be tested.Matt said:
God must give us the possibility of following a different path, other than the one He has layed out for us, otherwise we would remain in a state of innocence, not knowing good and evil, and we would have no joy, because we would know no sadness. We would have no pleasure, because we would know no pain..
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
The serpent told a half-truth, which is entirely typical of the way in which He works. I must have missed the part about where God lied. What did He say that was a lie? As far as "reacting badly," I'm afraid I don't follow that either. He reacted by doing exactly what He'd said He was going to do. If He had releted and given Adam and Eve a second chance, now that would have been "acting badly."MidnightBlue said:
Super Universe
Defender of God
Despite everything that has happened since the first true man: the great flood, the crucifixion of Jesus, the Lucifer Rebellion, plagues, drought, wars...
Despite all of this, humanity will absolutely not fail. Our success is guaranteed.
Adam and Eve planted a garden around the home they built. In this garden they planted a tree that they brought from their homeland. It was just a tree, it did not give knowledge. How could a tree do that?
Do you truly believe a serpent talked to Eve? Since when do serpents talk?
Do you believe the universe was created in seven days? Of course not.
Do you pay a ransom to the Lord? No.
Do you leave a blood sacrifice on the steps of the temple?
So why do you choose to believe that God could be so controlled by pity human emotions that in a fit of rage He punishes his fantastic new creation?
What Adam and Eve did was of their own decision. Satan deserves no credit and God deserves no blame.
God does not test. He does not tempt. God does not punish. And He does not change a story that a man chooses to write.
But you will believe what you choose to believe.
Despite all of this, humanity will absolutely not fail. Our success is guaranteed.
Adam and Eve planted a garden around the home they built. In this garden they planted a tree that they brought from their homeland. It was just a tree, it did not give knowledge. How could a tree do that?
Do you truly believe a serpent talked to Eve? Since when do serpents talk?
Do you believe the universe was created in seven days? Of course not.
Do you pay a ransom to the Lord? No.
Do you leave a blood sacrifice on the steps of the temple?
So why do you choose to believe that God could be so controlled by pity human emotions that in a fit of rage He punishes his fantastic new creation?
What Adam and Eve did was of their own decision. Satan deserves no credit and God deserves no blame.
God does not test. He does not tempt. God does not punish. And He does not change a story that a man chooses to write.
But you will believe what you choose to believe.