So by "good enough" you meant "no"?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Why So Much Trinity Bashing?
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
No, I meant they are considered orthodox enough for the orthodox churches to quote them.
These guys are Apostolic Fathers. I mean, I'm not sure what more anyone wants.
Unless someone (hmm?) wants them to agree with everything in the modern churches, which is impossible.
These guys contributed to the orthodoxy before there was one.
Not seeing the problem, man.
It was claimed ...
I asked ...
And you responded with three names. I then asked ...
And you danced, and that is "the problem, man."
Parenthetically, these Apostolic Fathers are the source of the claims pertaining to NT authorship. That, too, is "the problem, man."
Brian2
Veteran Member
There aren't many.
Here is a list of those considered Apostolic Fathers.
There are quite a few references to the deity of Jesus in their works.
eg:
The Apostolic Fathers and the Deity of Christ
The earliest Christian writers outside the New Testament, known as the Apostolic Fathers, clearly understood the scriptures to teach that Jesus is God.
carm.org
Thanks. Do you have any evidence (other than tradition) that any of them knew any of the apostles?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I know Jesus was fully man. He was born for a reason in the likeness of Adam, a perfect man. For someone to have special gifts as Jesus did, there are surely those that would classify him in a 'god' status. It is also written that God said, "Let us make man in our IMAGE..." And they were to be given dominion over the animals. "Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Genesis 1:26,27)There aren't many.
Here is a list of those considered Apostolic Fathers.
There are quite a few references to the deity of Jesus in their works.
eg:
The Apostolic Fathers and the Deity of Christ
The earliest Christian writers outside the New Testament, known as the Apostolic Fathers, clearly understood the scriptures to teach that Jesus is God.
May I ask how you feel about the fact that God "created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."
There are a few things there to be discussed, but wonder how you feel about those scriptures. First of all, it says God created male and female in his own image. (That's two anyway, not three.) So it requires understanding.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You seem to be radically misinformed about Constantine. The man is known for only three things that had any impact on the Christian church.
1. He issued the edict of Milan that removed all the penalties for being a Christian, ending the persecution.
2. He established a seven day week, and made the first day a holiday, which made it easier for Christians, who were gathering on the first day to break bread.
3. He called the Council of Nicea so that the bishops would work out the issue that was dividing them, because he knew that a united church made it easier for him to govern his empire.
What he did NOT do:
A. He did NOT make Christianity the state religion. That was actually done by Theodosius, who came a couple of emperors down the road.
B. He did NOT influence the council of Nicea. Constantine's preference was actually for Arianism, and as we all know, it was the Trinitarians who won out at the Council. The only people who had a say in the Council were the bishops. He was the emperor, not a Christian bishop, and had no say in the decision.
C. He did NOT have anything to do with the formation of the Chrsitian canon of the New Testament, either directly, or indirectly by influencing those who did. The ecumenical councils that formed the canon happened decades after his death in 337 CE. The canon was first formed at the council of Rome in 382 at the Council of Rome. It was then reaffirmed by the councils of Hippo in 393 and Carthage 397, and then definitively reaffirmed by the ecumenical Council of Florence in 1442 and the council of Trent in the 16th century.
Constantine himself, although he was very soft on Christianity, did not actually become a Christian until near death. When he was finally baptized, it was by an Arian bishop, not Trinitarian.
Misinformation about Constantine is so common, that I think I'm going to copy this post into an opening post for a new thread.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
True that I read he was baptized just before his death by an Arian and not a trinitarian believer. Then there's also the account of the flying cross that he supposedly maybe saw. Battle of the Milvian Bridge - Wikipedia
SLPCCC
Active Member
You are incorrect. Jesus believed He was God in all four Gospels. You don't see it because you have to look through the bible through a Jewish lens and understand the time they were living.
Paul called Jesus God and Savior
- Titus 2:13: “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Peter whom Mark followed called Jesus God and Savior
- 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
At Luke 18:19 Jesus may be challenging the man to examine his understanding of calling him good because by calling Jesus good he would be recognizing that Jesus was God. There are other interpretations, but the point is that it definitively does not declare or deny His divinity.
- In Luke 18: 19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
As for the scriptures below, Jesus was born as a human. He was the Word, and the Word became flesh. As a human, he was limited as the Son. But when he died, he was lifted, and the father was able to give him the kingdom because they are two different persons. But still, one Being. Two persons but one essence. The Father has the role in heaven, and Jesus as the Son on earth. A Husband may be greater than his wife in the sense of being the head of the household, but this doesn't mean he is a greater person than his wife. They are both equal, having different roles. Similarly, a General may have a higher role than his lower-ranking soldier, but this doesn't mean the General is a higher person. They are both equal but have different roles. Jesus always respected his father's role, who sent him as the Father and Jesus as the Son, even to the point of not knowing when the last day would be as the Son and as a man.
- Matthew 20: 23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
- Matthew 24: 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
Last edited:
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well, since I *am* a Jew, let me share what I see through my "Jewish lens."
The New Testament gives conflicting opinions as to who Jesus was, whether he was a god-man, or just a man. Thus, anyone reading the NT with an eye to determine the nature of Jesus, is forced to emphasize one set of verses, and conspicuously ignore the other set. This is why both Arian Christians and Trinitarian Christians BOTH base their theology on the New Testament, but reach radically different conclusions.
Continuing to use my "Jewish lens," any text that claims that a man is god is teaching idolatry. It doesn't matter if the man is Caesar, or Jesus, or David Koresh. The sacred text of Jews, what we call the Tanakh and Christians call the Old Testament, teaches on four separate occasions that God is not a man.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man...nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 for he is not a man
Hosea 11:9 I am God and not a man
Job 9:32 For he is not a man
This is one of many reasons why I don't accept the NT, just as I don't accept the Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, etc.
SLPCCC
Active Member
God is not one and three at the same time. You are using numbers to try to understand the Trinity. God is one and always has been one and never divided into three Gods. There are things we don't/can't understand like gravity, but we accept the term to comprehend the thing. If God created gravity, how much more com plicated should He be in trying to understand how He exists. It's like trying to understand the painter in the painting. The painting has nothing that is part of the painter except his thoughts and creativity. In the same way our Universe/dimension and understanding is not the same as God's. All we know is that we were created in His image. Nothing is impossible for God. If He wants to divide himself into three Persons, who are we to say, "No, you can't do that because it doesn't make any sense to me." Those who say that are reducing God to a god.
SLPCCC
Active Member
I wasn't referring to those Jewish lens. As you know, those Jewish lens denied that Jesus was even sent by God. I should have made myself clearer. The Jewish lens Jesus and his followers were looking through is what I meant. I believe all the NT scriptures support that Jesus believed He was God.
Last edited:
SLPCCC
Active Member
I agree with that. In fact, I believe most, if not all, Christians agree with that.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.
That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus never claimed to be God. It was Christians who claimed that Jesus was God.
Nothing in the Scriptures supports Jesus being God. Logic tells us that Jesus cannot be God.
The verses below explain why Jesus is not God, and why Jesus CANNOT be God.
Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Last edited:
It doesn't matter what Peter &c said. All four gospel Jesuses state that they are not God, and Paul states the same on his Jesus' behalf.
If you want more quotes of Jesus denying he's God, just ask.
And do you really think Mark's or Matthew's Jesus said on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" Or all four having to retire into the garden each to pray to himself while saying he's subjugating his own will to the will of the object of his prayers?
It's true that political pressure to raise Jesus to God status arose quite early in the Christian church, since Jesus was the object of their worship; but that doesn't change the denials in the gospels and NT directly attributed to Jesus. The 'how' was the problem, and the Trinity notion was the solution adopted, but as I pointed out earlier, not only is it a nonsense, but it's a nonsense out loud ie "a mystery in the strict sense"
No, Jesus is saying only one entity is good, and it's not him, Jesus.
Only the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John could have been the Word, since only they pre-existed in heaven with God (and created the material world, despite what Genesis says). However, both are very explicit about not being God. The Jesus of Mark was an ordinary Jewish lad until God adopted him following his baptism, in the manner [he] had adopted David in Psalm 2:7 (as Acts 13:33 confirms). Neither the Jesus of Matthew or the Jesus of Luke existed earlier than the divine insemination of Mary.
But don't let me persuade you to believe that Jesus was not a liar in the gospels. If you don't wish to be persuaded, you're free to believe as pleases you, assuming of course you live in a free nation. You might wonder why no version of Jesus ever said "I am the God of the Jews" out loud and proud, and you might be happy that Jesus' entire mission was conducted under a lie as to his identity, but again, those are matters for you.
Last edited:
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I agree with you that anything is possible! but what if you gave specific instructions, and your children or employees followed them closely, how good would that make you feel?
How good would it make Jesus and his Father feel when we look for their instructions in the Bible and we keep looking for agreement with their instructions?
For example.. Jesus said to them, “And who do you say that I am?” -- Matt.16:13-17
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Then I keep looking for other scriptures that agree with Jesus instructions.
Jesus: Jn. 3:16-18; 5:25; 11:4;
Our Father: Matt.3:17; 17:5
Angel: Lk.1:35
John the Baptist: Jn. 1:34
Mark: Mk. 1:1
Nathanael: Jn. 1:49
Martha: Jn. 11:27
John: Jn. 20:31; 1 Jn. 3:8; 5:5; 5:10; 5:12; 5:13; 5:20; Rev. 2:18
Luke: Acts 9:20
Paul: Eph.4:13; 2 Cor.1:19; Heb. 4:14; 6:6; 7:3; 10:29; Gal. 2:20
Roman Centurion: Matt. 27:54
Chief Priests and others: Matt. 27:40,43
When is Jesus identity revealed?
- By an Angel before he was even born as a human. Lk.1:35
- At his baptism and transfiguration by a voice from heaven. Matt.3:17; 17:5
- From all the abundant testimony throughout the New Testament.
- After Jesus life on earth and resurrection to life from the dead.
Hebrews 1:5 ...“YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE FATHERED YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE WILL BE A SON TO ME”? New American Standard Bible
Acts 13:33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: “‘You are my son; today I have become your father. NIV
What is more important, specific instructions from Jesus Or instructions that are missing?
How good would it make Jesus and his Father feel when we look for their instructions in the Bible and we keep looking for agreement with their instructions?
For example.. Jesus said to them, “And who do you say that I am?” -- Matt.16:13-17
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Then I keep looking for other scriptures that agree with Jesus instructions.
Jesus: Jn. 3:16-18; 5:25; 11:4;
Our Father: Matt.3:17; 17:5
Angel: Lk.1:35
John the Baptist: Jn. 1:34
Mark: Mk. 1:1
Nathanael: Jn. 1:49
Martha: Jn. 11:27
John: Jn. 20:31; 1 Jn. 3:8; 5:5; 5:10; 5:12; 5:13; 5:20; Rev. 2:18
Luke: Acts 9:20
Paul: Eph.4:13; 2 Cor.1:19; Heb. 4:14; 6:6; 7:3; 10:29; Gal. 2:20
Roman Centurion: Matt. 27:54
Chief Priests and others: Matt. 27:40,43
When is Jesus identity revealed?
- By an Angel before he was even born as a human. Lk.1:35
- At his baptism and transfiguration by a voice from heaven. Matt.3:17; 17:5
- From all the abundant testimony throughout the New Testament.
- After Jesus life on earth and resurrection to life from the dead.
Hebrews 1:5 ...“YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE FATHERED YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE WILL BE A SON TO ME”? New American Standard Bible
Acts 13:33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: “‘You are my son; today I have become your father. NIV
What is more important, specific instructions from Jesus Or instructions that are missing?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What do you think he meant when he quoted from the scriptures about that?
John chapter 10 --
"31Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. 32Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?”
33They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.”34Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’f 35And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ 36why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’?:
So he aptly told them that God said to certain leaders they were gods.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How the Jews looked at it way back then, the time it is supposed to depict, is not quite the way some look at it today*. Take, for instance, the exodus from Egypt, the Red Sea parting, and the giving of manna during that time in the wilderness. I think the Israelites are depicted to "look at it" differently as written than many Jews and others look at it today.
*And, in fact, if one looks at it realistically, some of the Israelites themselves objected to the leadership of Moses. And then, in fact, many built that idol while Moses was up in the mountain. Quite a bit of dissension throughout. Which only tells me (obviously not everyone) that the account is .. realistic and -- true.