Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[walt]

About 1473 BCE Moses wrote "the earth is suspended upon nothing" --Job 26:7 This is about 3,500 years ago, and about 732 BCE Isaiah wrote "the earth is a circle or sphere" --Isaiah 40:22

Some 200 years after Isaiah's day a Greek philosopher Pythagoras, It was around 500 B.C. that Pythagoras first proposed a spherical Earth, mainly on aesthetic grounds rather than on any physical evidence. Like many Greeks, he believed the sphere was the most perfect shape. Possibly the first to propose a spherical Earth based on actual physical evidence was Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)...

And more than 3,000 years after Moses writings Scientists such as Isaac Newton around 1687 C.E. Realized that the earth seemed to hang upon nothing.

 

[YoursTrue]

The political doctrine "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't hold up because enemies do not necessarily act rationally. The idea that Paul wasn't rational was expressed by Festus:

And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
Acts 26:24


The actual reason that Paul was on trial was because of his opposition to the law of Moses, particularly circumcision.

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:21-24

In Acts 26 There's also a marked difference between what Paul said that his role was and the role that was described in Acts 9.

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:14-18

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:13-16

From what I understand, the Pharisees were very detailed in how they saw and taught the Law. Paul became a believer and follower of Christ instead of continuing with his observance as a Pharisee. He was well educated, however. And yet became a Christian. And was persecuted by his former associates, the Pharisees.

 

[blü 2]

About 1473 BCE Moses wrote "the earth is suspended upon nothing" --Job 26:7 This is about 3,500 years ago, and about 732 BCE Isaiah wrote "the earth is a circle or sphere" --Isaiah 40:22

Some 200 years after Isaiah's day a Greek philosopher Pythagoras, It was around 500 B.C. that Pythagoras first proposed a spherical Earth, mainly on aesthetic grounds rather than on any physical evidence. Like many Greeks, he believed the sphere was the most perfect shape. Possibly the first to propose a spherical Earth based on actual physical evidence was Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)...

And more than 3,000 years after Moses writings Scientists such as Isaac Newton around 1687 C.E. Realized that the earth seemed to hang upon nothing.

Whoever were the writers of the Torah, indeed of the Tanakh, they understood earth and sky according to the understandings of the day. Thus for them, and if there was an historical Moses, including him, the earth was flat (whether as a plate or as a table, both are found), and immovably fixed, with water above it and below it (eg as in Genesis 1). The sky ─ the firmament ─ was a hard dome you could walk on, to which the stars are attached such that if they come loose they'll fall to earth. There are no concepts of such modern notions as gravity, orbits, heliocentry, a solar system, deep space, other stars, or galaxies. If you have any doubt, >here< is a list of some of the biblical quotes that my remarks above are based on.

 

[Eli G]

Whoever were the writers of the Torah, indeed of the Tanakh, they understood earth and sky according to the understandings of the day. Thus for them, and if there was an historical Moses, including him, the earth was flat (whether as a plate or as a table, both are found), and immovably fixed, with water above it and below it (eg as in Genesis 1).

The earth may appear flat to anyone who observes it with their own eyes. It is the same as saying that the sun rises or sets, when in reality it is the earth that is rotating around it. The biblical point of view is usually that of the ordinary observer from the surface of the ground.

The sky ─ the firmament ─ was a hard dome you could walk on, to which the stars are attached such that if they come loose they'll fall to earth.

The sky is a dome from where I can see it. Actually, it is a dome from anyone's point of view no matter where they are located. That is why in astronomy the sky is divided into hemispheres.

There are no concepts of such modern notions as gravity, orbits, heliocentry, a solar system, deep space, other stars, or galaxies. If you have any doubt, >here< is a list of some of the biblical quotes that my remarks above are based on.

The Bible is not a book of science. You can't look for support about the theory of strings or something like that. You can't look for any quotes about complex numbers either.

However, there are details like those cited by the previous forum member that draw attention due to their accuracy despite the time in which they were written.

 

[YoursTrue]

The earth may appear flat to anyone who observes it with their own eyes. It is the same as saying that the sun rises or sets, when in reality it is the earth that is rotating around it. The biblical point of view is usually that of the ordinary observer from the surface of the ground.

Now THAT is something I remember learning in elementary school which I believed (no reason for me not to) and still do. The earth is round (or spherical). Even though it appears flat from our bodies when observed like that. Which is one reason why I tried as a child when I went to the beach digging to China in the sand. Plus I saw globes and never had a question about them. So while I no longer believe that man evolved in part from fish, I do believe the earth is a ball-like structure, amazingly and lovingly from God.

 

[YoursTrue]

The earth may appear flat to anyone who observes it with their own eyes. It is the same as saying that the sun rises or sets, when in reality it is the earth that is rotating around it. The biblical point of view is usually that of the ordinary observer from the surface of the ground.

The sky is a dome from where I can see it. Actually, it is a dome from anyone's point of view no matter where they are located. That is why in astronomy the sky is divided into hemispheres.

The Bible is not a book of science. You can't look for support about the theory of strings or something like that. You can't look for any quotes about complex numbers either.

However, there are details like those cited by the previous forum member that draw attention due to their accuracy despite the time in which they were written.

Yes. And while the Bible itself is rather long, scientific writings not only change but far outweigh in length anything the Bible has to say. I wonder if the U.S. Library of Congress could hold all the scientific writings, books, magazines, etc. produced by scientists.

 

[Eli G]

A human being cannot by simple observation determine the roundness of the earth. It is obvious that Isaiah had to have revelation from a more advanced source than just humans who cannot notice the detail:

Is. 40:22 There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers. He is stretching out the heavens like a fine gauze, And he spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Aside from that, most cultures existing at the time of Moses had the idea that our planet (if it could be considered at that time a planet, the place where we live on) was supported by some other structure. However, Moses clearly said that the earth hung over empty space.

Job 26:7 He stretches out the northern sky over empty space, Suspending the earth upon nothing

Isn't that knowledge superior to human knowledge? I thoink so.

 

[Eli G]

Yes. And while the Bible itself is rather long, scientific writings not only change but far outweigh in length anything the Bible has to say. I wonder if the U.S. Library of Congress could hold all the scientific writings, books, magazines, etc. produced by scientists.

When I was young I liked to read a Soviet magazine called Sputnik and sometimes it contained scientific articles. One of them talked about "scientific" predictions based on calculations and observations... It said that in the year 2000 all human beings would be bald due to excessive use of combs and hair brushes.

 

[blü 2]

The earth may appear flat to anyone who observes it with their own eyes. It is the same as saying that the sun rises or sets, when in reality it is the earth that is rotating around it. The biblical point of view is usually that of the ordinary observer from the surface of the ground.

The point is that the authors of the bible thought the earth was flat and immovably fixed at the center of creation and &c &c.

The sky is a dome from where I can see it. Actually, it is a dome from anyone's point of view no matter where they are located. That is why in astronomy the sky is divided into hemispheres.

The sky is not the hard dome that you could walk on which the authors of bible conceived it to be. Nor are the stars attached to it such that if they come loose they'll fall to earth, again contrary to the bible authors' understanding.

The Bible is not a book of science.

No argument from me there.

You can't look for support about the theory of strings or something like that. You can't look for any quotes about complex numbers either.

However, there are details like those cited by the previous forum member that draw attention due to their accuracy despite the time in which they were written.

Not that I've found, or I would have mentioned them.

 

[Eli G]

The earth is flat from any human observer.
No biblical text says the earth is "immovably fixed at the center of creation" .
The Bible doesn't say the sky is a hard dome.

Some people believe they see in the Bible what the Bible does not say.
Maybe someone is fooling them to see what is not there.

 

[walt]

How has the Bible helped you?

The Bible can guide us
The Bible is like a powerful light. We can use the Bible to show us how to make good decisions and to help us see what lies ahead.

Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my foot,
And a light for my path.

Matthew 7:7 “Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you.

Romans 15:4 For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

Do you have any questions that the bible may be able to answer?
The answers may help you get comfort and hope for a bright future, Imagining all the promises that God actually gives us in the Bible.


Can I help others regardless of their age, nationality, or religion? Yes I will if I can.

 

[walt]

Just think if our beliefs were explained, just by Quoting Jesus and the Apostles? Nothing more Nothing less.

What's better than Jesus and the Apostles words for an excellent foundation of truth to put faith in?

 

[YoursTrue]

The earth is flat from any human observer.
No biblical text says the earth is "immovably fixed at the center of creation" .
The Bible doesn't say the sky is a hard dome.

Some people believe they see in the Bible what the Bible does not say.
Maybe someone is fooling them to see what is not there.

I never had a problem with the earth being like a globe. With or without the Bible. I would like to know how "flat-earthers" figure how the earth is shaped. Would you happen to know, even if you may not be a flat-earther?

 

[YoursTrue]

Just think if our beliefs were explained, just by Quoting Jesus and the Apostles? Nothing more Nothing less.

What's better than Jesus and the Apostles words for an excellent foundation of truth to put faith in?

It certainly would make sense to start with the scriptures, although there have been many translations, sometimes explained differently. I personally never saw God as a trinity, and believe that the son is not equal to the Father and/or the holy spirit, which I also do not believe is a person but is God's active force. Jesus has been GIVEN all authority by the Father. He did not grab authority or go against his heavenly Father's will. No matter how one looks at it, that's two persons and not three anyway. When Jesus said he was one with the Father, and if you see him you see the Father, again, that does not mean he IS the Father. I'll stop there right now.

 

[YoursTrue]

When I was young I liked to read a Soviet magazine called Sputnik and sometimes it contained scientific articles. One of them talked about "scientific" predictions based on calculations and observations... It said that in the year 2000 all human beings would be bald due to excessive use of combs and hair brushes.

okey dokey...

 

[Muffled]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

I believe it is because so few understand it.

 

[Muffled]

Why should that be relevant?

Presumably a Christian creed is the thoughtful consensus of the core beliefs transmitted by the NT. What rule assures that a 325 C.E. consensus is more correct than 19th century reassessment?

It would be nice to think no-one has found fault in it but it could just be rubber stamping. More likely than not once it became church doctrine it became difficult to remove.

 

[Muffled]

It's not lately. Creeds were written exactly because everything was not so clear from the NT.

I believe it was more likely a defense against heresies.

 

[walt]

I am thankful that I can keep trying to be kind to others.

 

[YoursTrue]

I am thankful that I can keep trying to be kind to others.

That is so nice. I am also thankful that God forgives me for my sins and has taken me under his wings, although I may not be the easiest to handle. Plus I have a hope for the future, and a wonderful one at that.