Why should a Christian even look into Islam as a Possible true Faith?

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus clearly said, No one comes to the Father except through Me. As Bible also says, clearly Jesus is Son of God. He died for the sins of others. As long as one believes in Jesus, he or she will be in heaven.
Beside this, there is no where in the Bible that says, after Jesus, God will reveal another Book called Quran through a Prophet called Muhammad from Arabia.
Jesus taught Love. After Him, no need for a false prophet to come and teach war.

So, three things for the Muslims to respond:

1. Do you even consider that your religion can be false? When did Jesus say, Muhammad comes. He warned there will be many false prophets.

2. Why should even a Christian believe for one Moment Islam can even possibly be true religion, when clearly Jesus said He is the only way to the Father. He clearly said, that He is the only Son of God?

3. Do you even care to have an answer to these questions, or you are just so sure that your religion is true, and you go to heaven. Do you consider that, your beliefs could just be based on Geographical location or family, and that from childhood you were brainwashed to believe Islam is true? Maybe you were brainwashed, how do you know?

I want to see how Muslims respond to these questions?

 

[Ebionite]

Jesus clearly said, No one comes to the Father except through Me.

In context, that was about the I am.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

As Bible also says, clearly Jesus is Son of God.

"God" is ambiguous. The prophetic references are to the righteous servant.

He died for the sins of others.

Not according to the Quran and the prophets he didn't.

As long as one believes in Jesus, he or she will be in heaven.

If that were true then those who were born before his time would miss out.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Excellent questions!
Why stop there?
Why start there?

Why start with the presupposition that the Bible is accurate?

Have you ever considered that your religion could be false?

Do you consider that, your beliefs could just be based on Geographical location or family, and that from childhood you were brainwashed to believe Christianity is true? Maybe you were brainwashed, how do you know?

Your questions are along the lines of “the outsider test for faith”.

Have you ever applied them equally to your own faith?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In context, that was about the I am.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

Yes, exactly. That is why Jesus also said before Abraham I am. It clearly shows He existed before in Heaven. Later He was born from womb of Mary, though did not have contact with a man. So, this clearly proves Jesus was the Son of God, as Christians know. Even the Muslims admit Mary, Mother of Jesus did not have intercourse to become pregnant with Jesus.
A very good reason to believe Jesus was the Son.

"God" is ambiguous. The prophetic references are to the righteous servant.

Not according to the Quran and the prophets he didn't.

Exactly. So, why should a Christian consider Quran to be true, if it says, Jesus was not crucified?
Or better ask Muslims. The Bible clearly says Jesus was crucified and rose after three days. Don't you think that if Quran says, Jesus was not crucified, it is teaching falsehood? Maybe this is the Satan who is saying Jesus was not crucified to deceive you. Did not Jesus warn about Satan?
maybe @Link would be interested in this thread and explain?

If that were true then those who were born before his time would miss out.

Well, that is a good point. Before Jesus God had sent Moses, and whoever followed Torah, was admited to Heaven. But after the Son of God died for the sins of all, it was expected to believe in Jesus. From that time forward, Jesus is the only way to the Father.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Excellent questions!
Why stop there?
Why start there?

Why start with the presupposition that the Bible is accurate?

Have you ever considered that your religion could be false?

Do you consider that, your beliefs could just be based on Geographical location or family, and that from childhood you were brainwashed to believe Christianity is true? Maybe you were brainwashed, how do you know?

Your questions are along the lines of “the outsider test for faith”.

Have you ever applied them equally to your own faith?

Yes, if one was to ask me same questions in another thread, i can confidently and happily answer those questions equally about why Bahai Faith is true faith after Christianity and Islam.

 

[Ebionite]

Yes, exactly. That is why Jesus also said before Abraham I am. It clearly shows He existed before in Heaven. Later He was born from womb of Mary, though did not have contact with a man. So, this clearly proves Jesus was the Son of God, as Christians know. Even the Muslims admit Mary, Mother of Jesus did not have intercourse to become pregnant with Jesus.
A very good reason to believe Jesus was the Son.

The proof relating to the "Son of God" is doctrinal. There are references to ben Elohim that have no apparent connection to Yeshua.

So, why should a Christian consider Quran to be true, if it says, Jesus was not crucified?

Because of the prophetic references to him from the Bible which are inconsistent with the Christian account, and because of the religious symbolism of the bread of life of the passover and how that relates to leaven. At passover only unleavened bread is eaten, which excludes the doctrine of Pharisees like Paul, which is symbolised as leaven.

The Bible clearly says Jesus was crucified and rose after three days.

The Biblical timeline has crucifixion on the day before the sabbath and the discovery of the empty tomb at around dawn on the day after the sabbath. That equates to two nights and one day in the tomb, not the three days and nights of the sign of Jonah.

Also, if the text from Luke is interpreted according to Christian tradition, there should prophetic validation of the crucifixion, but there isn't.

And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luke 24:44-46

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6:2

Don't you think that if Quran says, Jesus was not crucified, it is teaching falsehood? Maybe this is the Satan who is saying Jesus was not crucified to deceive you. Did not Jesus warn about Satan?

The Quran doesn't include the leaven that was warned against which related to the Pharisees and the Herodians. There is a closer assocation between the Pharisees and the adversary than there is between the Quran and the adversay.

There were warnings about Satan, but not always about the same being.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 4:10

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Matthew 16:23

Before Jesus God had sent Moses, and whoever followed Torah, was admited to Heaven. But after the Son of God died for the sins of all, it was expected to believe in Jesus. From that time forward, Jesus is the only way to the Father.

The law remained in effect, it was endorsed by Jesus. Blood sacrifice was repudiated by Jesus and by David, and both of them were endorsed.

And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Mark 9:7

Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isaiah 55:3-4

 

[Trailblazer]

From that time forward, Jesus is the only way to the Father.

No, Jesus never said that. Jesus said another Comforter and the Spirit of truth would come after Him.:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Ebionite]

No, Jesus never said that. Jesus said another Comforter and the Spirit of truth would come after Him.:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Truth and lies are opposites, which could suggest enmity - the holy spirit is the spirit of truth.

For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Isaiah 63:8-10

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The proof relating to the "Son of God" is doctrinal. There are references to ben Elohim that have no apparent connection to Yeshua.

The proof is, Jesus, came down from heaven, as Mary did not have intercourse to become pregnant with Jesus. That means, Jesus was pre-existing, thus son of God. Beside this, He did many miracles. He resurrected some dead people to prove He is the Son of God.

Because of the prophetic references to him from the Bible which are inconsistent with the Christian account, and because of the religious symbolism of the bread of life of the passover and how that relates to leaven. At passover only unleavened bread is eaten, which excludes the doctrine of Pharisees like Paul, which is symbolised as leaven.

There could some apparent minor variation between the 4 Gospels account. But All 4 accounts agree that Jesus was crucified. There is no question about that. So, if Quran teaches that Jesus was not crucified, don't you think the Quran is taching falsehood very obviously?

The Biblical timeline has crucifixion on the day before the sabbath and the discovery of the empty tomb at around dawn on the day after the sabbath. That equates to two nights and one day in the tomb, not the three days and nights of the sign of Jonah.

Ok, but that does not prove Jesus waa not crucified. He was crucified and then after three days, He rised and apostles saw Him, touched His wounds.

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6:2

Well, that is a good point. It could be that while Jesus rose after three days, this Miracle caused His followers to spiritually rise and spread the news about Jesus to others. I think that makes more sense.

The Quran doesn't include the leaven that was warned against which related to the Pharisees and the Herodians. There is a closer assocation between the Pharisees and the adversary than there is between the Quran and the adversay.

right

There were warnings about Satan, but not always about the same being.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 4:10

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Matthew 16:23


The law remained in effect, it was endorsed by Jesus. Blood sacrifice was repudiated by Jesus and by David, and both of them were endorsed.

And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Mark 9:7

Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isaiah 55:3-4

Good verses of Bible.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, Jesus never said that.

"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 14:6

Jesus said another Comforter and the Spirit of truth would come after Him.:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Comforter or Spirt of Truth is just the Holy Spirit that was descended on Christians. It is in the Bible. These verses do not say Muhammad comes after Jesus. It says "Spirit of Truth". If Jesus wanted to say Muhammad comes , He could have easily said "Muhammad comes in Arabia".

maybe @Link Can explain that.

 

[Ebionite]

The proof is, Jesus, came down from heaven, as Mary did not have intercourse to become pregnant with Jesus. That means, Jesus was pre-existing, thus son of God.

For that logic to work Jesus would have to have been his own father, but according to the gospels the spirit alighted upon him like a dove.

He resurrected some dead people to prove He is the Son of God.

The resurrection of Lazaruas relates to Elohim, since I am is the name of Elohim:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25

There could some apparent minor variation between the 4 Gospels account.

The variations between John and that synoptic gospels are not minor ones, they relate to the leaven (as the doctrine of the Pharisees, eg a false accusation), which relates to another of the I am declarations:

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:35

One example of the variations is that in the synoptics the false witnesses said that Jesus made the claim about rebuilding the temple in three days, but according to the gospel of John he made that claim himself. This relates to the righteous servant of Psalm 35 and Isaiah 53:

False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge [things] that I knew not.
Psalms 35:11

But All 4 accounts agree that Jesus was crucified. There is no question about that. So, if Quran teaches that Jesus was not crucified, don't you think the Quran is taching falsehood very obviously?

Also the Gnostic gospels deny that Jesus was crucified, although they say that it was Simon of Cyrene that died in his place which IMO is false.

The essential argument is that the crucifixion isn't supported by the prophets, who are closer to the actual "word of God" than the writers of the gospels.
Surely the Lord YHWH will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amos 3:7

Ok, but that does not prove Jesus waa not crucified. He was crucified and then after three days, He rised and apostles saw Him, touched His wounds.

The wounds are described in Zechariah 12, which is part of a small group of chapters which relate to the crucifixion.
And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:6-7
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Matthew 26:31

It could be that while Jesus rose after three days

He couldn't have risen after three days.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:21

 

[InvestigateTruth]

For that logic to work Jesus would have to have been his own father, but according to the gospels the spirit alighted upon him like a dove.


The resurrection of Lazaruas relates to Elohim, since I am is the name of Elohim:

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18

The Bible is clear. Jesus is the only Son of God.
If it did not mean it, the Bible would not have said this.
So, when the Quran says, God does not have a Son, it is opposing a clear and valid statement of the Bible.

The Bible is inspired by God.
Quran says, Jesus was the Messiah. So it claims to agree that Jesus was sent by God as the Promised Messiah of Jews, and He resurrected dead people.
So, why one should accept the account of Quran, which says Jesus is Messiah, Jesus resurrected the Dead, Jesus's mother did not have intercourse, but Jesus is not the Son of God. God just took Jesus up, so, they did not kill Jesus.
That is the question. Why Quran is valid on these accounts but Bible is not true?

The variations between John and that synoptic gospels are not minor ones, they relate to the leaven (as the doctrine of the Pharisees, eg a false accusation), which relates to another of the I am declarations:

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:35

One example of the variations is that in the synoptics the false witnesses said that Jesus made the claim about rebuilding the temple in three days, but according to the gospel of John he made that claim himself. This relates to the righteous servant of Psalm 35 and Isaiah 53:

False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge [things] that I knew not.
Psalms 35:11


Also the Gnostic gospels deny that Jesus was crucified, although they say that it was Simon of Cyrene that died in his place which IMO is false.

The essential argument is that the crucifixion isn't supported by the prophets, who are closer to the actual "word of God" than the writers of the gospels.
Surely the Lord YHWH will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amos 3:7


The wounds are described in Zechariah 12, which is part of a small group of chapters which relate to the crucifixion.
And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:6-7
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Matthew 26:31


He couldn't have risen after three days.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:21

All Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified and rose. This is the main thing that matters. Those other details, are debatable. But it does not change, the fact the the Bible clearly says, Jesus is Son of God and He died for Sins of others, and He rose and went to heaven.

 

[Ebionite]

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18

The Bible is clear. Jesus is the only Son of God.
If it did not mean it, the Bible would not have said this.

Some books of the Bible were written by Pharisees. Their doctrine is not reliable according to the Bible.

All Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified and rose. This is the main thing that matters.

The Bible is not the final arbiter of truth.

 

[2ndpillar]

Well, that is a good point. Before Jesus God had sent Moses, and whoever followed Torah, was admited to Heaven. But after the Son of God died for the sins of all, it was expected to believe in Jesus. From that time forward, Jesus is the only way to the Father.

If you have to "believe" in "Jesus", and he is the "Word (Word of God) made flesh", if you instead of believing the "Word", you nail him to a cross, where does that put you? And according to the "Word" per Jeremiah 31:30, everyone dies for their own iniquities/sin. Christianity is simply a sect whose dogma, the false gospel of grace/cross/lawlessness, was simply a product of the false prophet (Mt 7:12-15) Paul.

 

[2ndpillar]

All Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified and rose. This is the main thing that matters. Those other details, are debatable. But it does not change, the fact the the Bible clearly says, Jesus is Son of God and He died for Sins of others, and He rose and went to heaven.

According to Matthew 13:13-49, with respect to the gospel of Yeshua, the kingdom of heaven, the "message" of the "enemy"/"devil" will be planted in the same field (book) next to the "message" of the "son of man". You have failed to displace the chaff from the wheat. At the "end of the age", the "tares"/lawless/wicked will be the "first" to be gathered and then thrown into the fire. (Mt 13:30 & 41-42). The "message" of the "kingdom" is antithetical to the "message" of the false gospel of grace/cross/lawlessness.

 

[Ebionite]

If you have to "believe" in "Jesus", and he is the "Word (Word of God) made flesh"

The doctrine of the word made flesh comes from the gospel of John. Only this gospel has the account of a spear being used at the crucifixion, and only this gospel refers to the pierced word of Zechariah 12.

And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
John 19:37

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10

Also, the gospel of John refers to the Caiaphas' proposal to kill Yeshua as being prophecy:

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
John 11:49-51

 

[Trailblazer]

"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 14:6

Jesus did not say"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one will ever come to the Father except through me."

Jesus was the only way to the Father during the Dispensation of Jesus, but that dispensation ended when the Bab and Baha'ullah appeared.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it........” God Passes By, p. 100

“A Revelation, hailed as the promise and crowning glory of past ages and centuries, as the consummation of all the Dispensations within the Adamic Cycle, inaugurating an era of at least a thousand years’ duration, and a cycle destined to last no less than five thousand centuries, signalizing the end of the Prophetic Era and the beginning of the Era of Fulfillment, unsurpassed alike in the duration of its Author’s ministry and the fecundity and splendor of His mission—such a Revelation was, as already noted, born amidst the darkness of a subterranean dungeon in Tihrán—an abominable pit that had once served as a reservoir of water for one of the public baths of the city.” God Passes By, p. 100

You either believe that or you don't.... your choice.

Comforter or Spirit of Truth is just the Holy Spirit that was descended on Christians. It is in the Bible.

No, the verses do not say that, that is only what Christians interpret them to mean.

You either believe Christianity or Baha'u'llah. You cannot have it both ways.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

These verses do not say Muhammad comes after Jesus. It says "Spirit of Truth". If Jesus wanted to say Muhammad comes , He could have easily said "Muhammad comes in Arabia".

maybe @Link Can explain that.

I do not know anything about what Jesus said about Muhammad coming. I only know what Jesus said about Baha'u'llah coming.

 

[Trailblazer]

Truth and lies are opposites, which could suggest enmity - the holy spirit is the spirit of truth.

You are free to believe that if you want to but it is only a belief, not a fact.

I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit which was sent to Him by the Father.

 

[Ebionite]

You are free to believe that if you want to but it is only a belief, not a fact.

I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit which was sent to Him by the Father.

What matters is which of these beliefs are more likely to be true. In the book of Daniel the time of the end is associated with an increase in knowledge, which would be consistent with the effect of the presence of a spirit of truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the book of Daniel the time of the end is associated with an increase in knowledge, which would be consistent with the effect of the presence of a spirit of truth.

That would be consistent with Baha'u'llah being the Spirit of truth, since He brought the Holy Spirit and released it into the world.
The increase in knowledge is due to the Holy Spirit being released into the world, just as Jesus had done in His day.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Baha’is believe that the 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased. It also means that scientific and all other kinds of knowledge will be increased.