Why Scientists need to accept Eastern thought

[cladking]

Seems to me we should assume that the human organism as it exists is already "perfect". It was not created flawed, needing for us to improve it by a lifetime of meditation and other ascetic practices.

Who came up with the idea that humans are flawed, needing fixing?

Most of us find this self apparent. Most of us can laugh at ourselves. Most of us can see the monsters in history who killed millions for petty and ridiculous reasons.

We are obviously highly flawed and less obviously we can see only what we believe whether it's a Creator, a big bang, or any illogical and far fetched thing we were taught on our parents' knees. We were taught that we are intelligent and can see reality and we never seem to notice these aren't true. We don't notice that we have far more ignorance than knowledge because we can't see our ignorance and can only see our beliefs/ models/ thoughts/ etc. We can't see anything directly but only through language by which we each acquire our own unique set of beliefs.

All individuals aren't flawed by nature but rather by the nature of the way we learn to see at all. We are flawed by our inability to directly see reality. And this is where eastern philosophies just might enable an individual to better understand himself and his place in nature. This could even lead to advancement in science since metaphysics (and the way we think) has apparently led science to an impasse we might not be able to surpass.

The human body and wiring is probably perfect as much as is possible with the actual conditions in which we all exist at the current time. But there is nothing at all perfect with anyone's behavior or understanding. There is nothing perfect about the means we use individually or collectively to achieve understanding.

 

[ecco]

If you can experience what's around you outside of language

What do you mean? Give some examples.

 

[ecco]

Materialists would have you believe that the scientific method came down from Heaven, fully formed. NOt a word can be added to or taken away from it.

More nonsense. Anyone at all familiar with science knows that methods must change as new knowledge is gained using, among other things, newer instruments.

Why would you make such a ridiculous comment?

 

[tayla]

We don't notice that we have far more ignorance than knowledge because we can't see our ignorance and can only see our beliefs/ models/ thoughts/ etc. We can't see anything directly but only through language by which we each acquire our own unique set of beliefs.

We are flawed by our inability to directly see reality. And this is where eastern philosophies just might enable an individual to better understand himself and his place in nature.

Seems to me that psychology, philosophy, sociology, ecology, biology, political science, and science in general are better suited to improving human nature. I don't see evidence that eastern philosophy has helped societies or individuals become better.

 

[cladking]

What do you mean? Give some examples.

You quoted a sentence fragment. "If you can experience what's around you outside of language then you should have a different consciousness and one that is in tune with reality or at least reflective of the nature of the brain."

Our brains are programmed by language. Even when we look at things from other perspectives we carry our programming with us. In other words even when we think outside the box we are carrying the box right outside with us.

It is further apparent that "consciousness" itself is wholly dependent on language. The way we experience reality and all sensory input is dependent on the way we are programmed. Our specific programming makes many things almost impossible to see. Modern language is liberating in the sense it allows almost any thought but it is exceedingly restrictive in that it hides what it can not see. It hides the very existence of much of reality.

There may be several ways to overcome these restrictions but they will all require different modeling, different beliefs, or a different way to think.

I am further assuming that the fallback position of the brain (and there probably is one) is to think in terms that are reflective of the wiring of the brain exactly like the ancients did. In other words any method that allows you to think outside of language will likely lead you to think just like the great pyramid builders. Just as Ancient Language had no words for "thought" those who experience meditation often say they quit "thinking". This is the same thing we do in stage IV sleep when we solve our practical problems; we "quit thinking". Thought is the comparison of sensory input (of all types) with our beliefs which were created and maintained through language. If you can stay conscious and stop this then you will "think" differently.

 

[ecco]

What do you mean? Give some examples.

You quoted a sentence fragment. "If you can experience what's around you outside of language then you should have a different consciousness and one that is in tune with reality or at least reflective of the nature of the brain."

Our brains are programmed by language. Even when we look at things from other perspectives we carry our programming with us. In other words even when we think outside the box we are carrying the box right outside with us.

Yeah. I know what I quoted. But, OK. Given your entire sentence...What do you mean? Give some examples.

What do you mean by "experience what's around you outside of language"? I ask because I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. That's also why I asked for examples.

 

[cladking]

Seems to me that psychology, philosophy, sociology, ecology, biology, political science, and science in general are better suited to improving human nature. I don't see evidence that eastern philosophy has helped societies or individuals become better.

The problem I see is that theory is almost stuck in the 1920's. I'm not sure we can get over this hurdle using the same means that got us here.

 

[cladking]

Yeah. I know what I quoted. But, OK. Given your entire sentence...What do you mean? Give some examples.

What do you mean by "experience what's around you outside of language"? I ask because I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. That's also why I asked for examples.

Remodeling our beliefs
Stage 4 sleep
Machine intelligence?
Mathematics
AI?
Aphasia?
Meditation?

Experience, sleep, and muscle memory are some of the most common ways that we have to understand without no language.

I don't know how many exist.

 

[tayla]

Seems to me that psychology, philosophy, sociology, ecology, biology, political science, and science in general are better suited to improving human nature. I don't see evidence that eastern philosophy has helped societies or individuals become better.

The problem I see is that theory is almost stuck in the 1920's.

Modern psychology, for example, is nothing like in the early days. And there are abundant modern developments about such topics as: (1) what makes for a legitimate government?, and (2) what kinds of rights and freedoms should people have? And certainly the understanding of the human mind has progressed significantly, for example, in discovering cognitive biases. Science isn't stuck.

Furthermore, what need does science have for subjective conscious experiences in which the experiencer intuits (or feels or experiences or whatever you want to call it) that everything is one, or one mind, or whatever?

 

[Martin]

If science doesn't believe in any of this stuff.Why is quantum physics giving it so much attention?

What has Quantum physics got to do with this?

 

[Martin]

G

Nope.
But it may be worth to investigate Eastern philosophy and meditation, see how they match up to Western science. If it produces results, take it, else discard it. We already know that meditation has its value in medicine. If you propose it as an epistemological tool, suggest a test to falsify the hypothesis.

I tend to agree. I think in particular that Eastern thought could make a useful contribution to the understanding of what consciousness is, and how it works.
On the other hand, science and Eastern thought have different assumptions and methods, so integrating them could be difficult.

 

[ecco]

Remodeling our beliefs
Stage 4 sleep
Machine intelligence?
Mathematics
AI?
Aphasia?
Meditation?

Experience, sleep, and muscle memory are some of the most common ways that we have to understand without no language.

I don't know how many exist.

You still have not explained:
What do you mean by "experience what's around you outside of language"?


I ask because I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. That's also why I asked for examples.

You've given no examples.

Is this just another example of you making baseless assertions and then ducking and dodging?

 

[ecco]

From the OP

I will try to keep my topic simple. There are multiple reasons why Western scientists need to adopt but I will only offer two:
...

So far you have not presented any valid "reasons" Why Scientists need to accept Eastern thought.
Your personal opinions don't count as valid reasons. Your arguments have not been persuasive.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Scientists need to accept Eastern thought

What is the source of knowledge of "Eastern thought" to start with, please?

Regards

 

[cladking]

You still have not explained:
What do you mean by "experience what's around you outside of language"?


I ask because I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. That's also why I asked for examples.

You've given no examples.

Is this just another example of you making baseless assertions and then ducking and dodging?

You're apparently parsing my sentence wrong.

"If you can experience what's around you outside of language then you should have a different consciousness and one that is in tune with reality or at least reflective of the nature of the brain."

If you can be conscious of what's around you without employing thought (which is language) then you should be more in tune with nature (reality itself) which might just be the experience of a reflection of how your brain is wired.

We can't experience reality directly. We all see what we believe preferentially to what is real. We see reality in terms of what we believe so we each have a distinct understanding of what is real. These beliefs are held in terms of language and we experience the comparison of sensory input to these beliefs as "thought".

Essentially we are using an analog language and analog thought in a digital brain in a digital reality. There's not only a lot of rounding error but there is perspective error. We simply can't see all the relevant information because we have a poor perspective. Things like "consciousness" are nearly invisible to us so we can't see that consciousness is the foundation of life and all life is individual. An oak tree literally understands consciousness better than any human. But, of course, there are ways for humans to experience reality directly and some of those means are listed above.

Language ties us to our thoughts and our thoughts are two dimensional. Ancient people and animals use four dimensional thinking but don't experience what we call "thought" at all. The difference between us and ancients/ animals isn't intelligence. IT IS ANALOG LANGUAGE.

 

[tas8831]

You're apparently parsing my sentence wrong.

Still waiting for ANY evidence for any of the things you've claimed about the brain - like your goofy claims about "broccas" area, or that chimp's don't have a Broca's area, or that people can just choose to 'grow' a Broca's area, or how Wernicke's area is "partially bifurcated", etc., etc., etc/

 

[Milton Platt]

I think science will have to address seemingly non-material concepts to get at the root of understanding consciousness. Perhaps someone will postulate a new attribute of the material universe; something weirdly similar to energy, and entropy, and the flow of time, and quantum mechanics. All these are weird, yet they are material. Consciousness is weird too, and there is no reason to think it is not physical in the same kind of weird way.

However, there is also no reason to think it is.......

 

[Swami]

From the OP


So far you have not presented any valid "reasons" Why Scientists need to accept Eastern thought.
Your personal opinions don't count as valid reasons. Your arguments have not been persuasive.

I have presented evidence so the that is not the problem. The problem is that my view is not compatible with the materialistic worldview. To accept it would require a "fundamental" change in views, like converting from atheism to theism. Very little change on this scale by just presenting evidence or debating. WHat I have seen is that many change when they experience for themselves.

Meditation is a something that anyone can practice so there is no excuse for scientists and other skeptics to not explore it for themselves. This would be nothing different than field research which is also part of the scientific method.

 

[cladking]

Still waiting for ANY evidence for any of the things you've claimed about the brain - like your goofy claims about "broccas" area, or that chimp's don't have a Broca's area, or that people can just choose to 'grow' a Broca's area, or how Wernicke's area is "partially bifurcated", etc., etc., etc/

Do chimps have a brocas area? This would be important information.

How would you check? Stimulate various nerves and see if they vocalize?

 

[ecco]

You're apparently parsing my sentence wrong.

"If you can experience what's around you outside of language then you should have a different consciousness and one that is in tune with reality or at least reflective of the nature of the brain."

If you can be conscious of what's around you without employing thought (which is language) then you should be more in tune with nature (reality itself) which might just be the experience of a reflection of how your brain is wired.

We can't experience reality directly. We all see what we believe preferentially to what is real. We see reality in terms of what we believe so we each have a distinct understanding of what is real. These beliefs are held in terms of language and we experience the comparison of sensory input to these beliefs as "thought".

Essentially we are using an analog language and analog thought in a digital brain in a digital reality. There's not only a lot of rounding error but there is perspective error. We simply can't see all the relevant information because we have a poor perspective. Things like "consciousness" are nearly invisible to us so we can't see that consciousness is the foundation of life and all life is individual. An oak tree literally understands consciousness better than any human. But, of course, there are ways for humans to experience reality directly and some of those means are listed above.

Yada, yada, yada. I still don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. That's also why I asked for examples.

You've given no examples. Is that because you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Language ties us to our thoughts and our thoughts are two dimensional. Ancient people and animals use four dimensional thinking but don't experience what we call "thought" at all. The difference between us and ancients/ animals isn't intelligence. IT IS ANALOG LANGUAGE.

You do have a good imagination.

Please explain how you know that "animals use four dimensional thinking".

Please explain how an entity can "use four dimensional thinking but don't experience what we call "thought" at all."

Please explain how "an oak tree literally understands consciousness better than any human.