Why is Hinduism Hardly discussed in this forum?

[Pleroma]

I've been to Bangalore, just for a couple of days, as the start/end of a pilgrimage to TN. I'm a bit familiar with it, and have heard of the Adi Chinchinagiri Mutt (I'm sure my spelling is incorrect on that one.) But yes, the Kannada priest who I've met here (Canada, and US) seem to be doing a great job.

I am from Bangalore, yes the swamy of the Adi Chinchinagiri Mutt is doing very good social works, he has built various schools and colleges across the state and he is very close to my father. An another Mutt is the Siddaganga Mutt and the Siddaganga swamy is known as walking God who at the age of 105 climbs a three storey building and teach English to 5th grade students at early 5 A.M in the morning. The Sringeri Sharadha peeta is from our state.

But don't ask about the politicians here , they suck and the culture here is no where similar to the Aryan culture.

TN is known for its glorious temples, it will be a nice pilgrimage.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you for the info. The Chinchinagiri Mutt leant some land for stone work for a temple coming to North America. But as far as politicians go, I'm not sure if I've ever met an Indian who didn't say something similar to what you said. Here it is the same, just not quite as passionate. We don't block entire highways for protests, which is what happened on the way back to Bangalore Airport. Good thing the driver knew his back routes or we may have missed the plane. It was a nice pilgrimage... actually twice, the second time we started and ended right in Madurai.

I do like the local Kannada group though.

 

[1robin]

The apology came too late.

Who cares? No apology was necessary in the first place. I have never seen such appeals to victum hood by any other group in existance.

Correction: "I mention 330 million Gods repeatedly and the roof flies off."

How does this change anything? By the way 33 Gods or as another Hindu claimed an infinate number are no more intuitive or reasonable. This has significant theological philosphy problems.

 

[1robin]

No need to tell me anything about Christianity, I'm just posting an interesting graph which shows that retention rates among families is highest for hinduism. I don't care if Christianity is growing or shrinking.

That was not the issue. I have seen several claims in this thread claiming Hinduism is the largest religion. That is false it is like 3rd or 4th. I am also very familiar with the bogus attempts to make the unjustifiable become justified by finding some graph somewhere that contains some bizarre claim by which a persons can use it to prop up a religion. I am just insisting that whatever is used to defend or criticise a religion be accurate or reliable. Statistics have no power to declare what is true or not anyway.

If you really want to brawl about how great your religion is then I would suggest going up against the growing population of strong atheists, who are doing more damage to Christianity than Islam/Hinduism/Satanism/wtv could ever dream of.

I have seen and read transcripts from every debate between every challenger I can find. I debate every type of non Christian that exists. Actually atheism is one of the easiest to counter. Judaism is the hardest followed by Islam. Every critic that has attacked the Bible, the Bible has buried. Voltaire said that in 50 years Christianity would be dead. In 50 years Voltaire was dead and his house used to print Bible's in. There was a famous Roman thinker that wrote a five volume set of works that he said would eliminate faith in the bible. You are aware of the Bible can you name that man and a single title of any volume? The Bible is an anvil that has worn out many hammers. There is no religous text in existance that matches it in any category by which theological texts are evaluated. Anyway I will get off the soap box. Shalom

 

[Astravalon]

Hey guys, regardless of y’alls differences, please don’t forget one of the most important things: that each and every one of you is an amazing creation of God’s and He loves you beyond your wildest imaginings; religious affiliation is entirely beside the point.

Try to see the differences as diversities to enjoy rather than disagreements to endure; I believe they're secondary to the knowledge and experience of God's love.

I just felt this reminder needed to be put out there, and maybe I needed to be reminded of it too, given that I've been going through something of a spiritual 'dry spell' over the past month or so. ♥ ♥

 

[CG Didymus]

In California, in the 60's, it was "hip" to be a vegetarian, do yoga, and to meditate. We had "gurus" galore. Then in the 70's something weird happened--the Jesus Freaks. Although I was raised in this culture, I had never known what was meant by "being saved." "Jesus is the only way" was forced upon me and diverted my spiritual path for a few years.
The Jesus movement gave you little wiggle room, either you believed literally in the Fundamental Christian interpretation of the Bible or you were destined to burn in a spiritual fiery pit. Who wants that? I listened. I tried it. But, it's way too extreme for me to believe.
I like that every people and every culture has a different view of spiritual truth. And, I think it is arrogant and presumptuous for anyone to say that their version of their religion is the only truth, and, therefore, they make all the others false.
I can understand why they do it, especially with Fundamental Christianity, because that is what the Christian Bible says. But, it is a second or third hand report of what Jesus might have said. And, it doesn't conform to the teachings of Judaism. The Jews I know say they don't have the Christian concept of original sin, of hell and the devil, the Trinity, and many others. So where did Christianity get them? From the Greeks or Zoroastrians? Maybe and why not. Why couldn't Christianity be a mix of several spiritual teachings? Even today some Christians add yoga to their Christian lifestyle, even though, more strict Christians warn them of the evils of such an activity.
I think that Fundamental Christianity causes people to be afraid to learn and understand other religions, because they are told it is "of the devil." I still do hatha yoga. I'm still vegetarian. I do some of the breathing techniques and, actually, I wouldn't mind if reincarnation was what happens to people after they die. I think it's way more fair than the Christian view of one life, one chance to believe, and if you don't, good-bye, it's to hell with you.
Anyway, all this to say. It is sad that we don't know more of what Hinduism is all about.

 

[Vinayaka]

Didymus, of course I agree, that its a shame. You would not believe some of the misconceptions we Hindus encounter. And that was the intent in this thread somewhere a long time ago, near the beginning of it ... to eradicate a misconception. But of course what I consider a misconception may well be what another person considers a truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thank you for the positive reply. At least my intent was not misconstrued. I want to know why people believe what they believe. If you were raised in a society that teaches something different, I want to know what it is and how it shaped what you are.
I've seen how the Bible shaped some of my friends back in the 70's. I know enough about their sacred writings to know that I can never call them 100% literal, without error, infallible or whatever else they must claim for their chosen Holy book. Yet, it makes them, for the most part, better people. I'd have to say that as their beliefs become more extreme, the less tolerant of others they become.
Many Christians are more accepting of others and trying to build bridges of unity between religions. There is common ground. Each religion has some good and some , especially when it comes to religious laws. Christians believe their version of God to be perfect and unchangeable, yet that is the same God that told the Jews to stone a person if they picked up firewood on the Sabbath.
Non-Hindus might criticize the caste system, but one of the most tolerant countries in the world, the United States was filled with prejudices against people of different cultures. My generation helped promote gender, racial and religious tolerance and equality, in spite of our religious upbringing, not because of it. And, if we ask the poor brown man mowing the lawns and picking our vegetables here in California today, he'd probably say, "No, I think America does have a caste system, and I'm on the bottom."
It's funny, a big inspiration for me in the 60's and 70's was Gandhi. I'm in my sixties now, and I'm a better person for the influence that your culture has brought to the United States. I want to know more. I don't care about the evil off-shoots. All religions have had their bad sides. I want to know what has made you a better person, and how you can make the world a better place because of the spiritual insight that only you can bring to the discussion.

 

[Pleroma]

In California, in the 60's, it was "hip" to be a vegetarian, do yoga, and to meditate. We had "gurus" galore. Then in the 70's something weird happened--the Jesus Freaks. Although I was raised in this culture, I had never known what was meant by "being saved." "Jesus is the only way" was forced upon me and diverted my spiritual path for a few years.
The Jesus movement gave you little wiggle room, either you believed literally in the Fundamental Christian interpretation of the Bible or you were destined to burn in a spiritual fiery pit. Who wants that? I listened. I tried it. But, it's way too extreme for me to believe.
I like that every people and every culture has a different view of spiritual truth. And, I think it is arrogant and presumptuous for anyone to say that their version of their religion is the only truth, and, therefore, they make all the others false.
I can understand why they do it, especially with Fundamental Christianity, because that is what the Christian Bible says. But, it is a second or third hand report of what Jesus might have said. And, it doesn't conform to the teachings of Judaism. The Jews I know say they don't have the Christian concept of original sin, of hell and the devil, the Trinity, and many others. So where did Christianity get them? From the Greeks or Zoroastrians? Maybe and why not. Why couldn't Christianity be a mix of several spiritual teachings? Even today some Christians add yoga to their Christian lifestyle, even though, more strict Christians warn them of the evils of such an activity.
I think that Fundamental Christianity causes people to be afraid to learn and understand other religions, because they are told it is "of the devil." I still do hatha yoga. I'm still vegetarian. I do some of the breathing techniques and, actually, I wouldn't mind if reincarnation was what happens to people after they die. I think it's way more fair than the Christian view of one life, one chance to believe, and if you don't, good-bye, it's to hell with you.
Anyway, all this to say. It is sad that we don't know more of what Hinduism is all about.

All those who are performing Yoga are directly or indirectly worshipping the Sun God. Its blasphemy.

Yoga poses dangers to genuine Christian faith: Theologian

AlbertMohler.com – The Subtle Body — Should Christians Practice Yoga?

I care more about the emotional concerns of Christians than any Hindu ever.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you for the positive reply. At least my intent was not misconstrued. I want to know why people believe what they believe. If you were raised in a society that teaches something different, I want to know what it is and how it shaped what you are.
I've seen how the Bible shaped some of my friends back in the 70's. I know enough about their sacred writings to know that I can never call them 100% literal, without error, infallible or whatever else they must claim for their chosen Holy book. Yet, it makes them, for the most part, better people. I'd have to say that as their beliefs become more extreme, the less tolerant of others they become.
Many Christians are more accepting of others and trying to build bridges of unity between religions. There is common ground. Each religion has some good and some , especially when it comes to religious laws. Christians believe their version of God to be perfect and unchangeable, yet that is the same God that told the Jews to stone a person if they picked up firewood on the Sabbath.
Non-Hindus might criticize the caste system, but one of the most tolerant countries in the world, the United States was filled with prejudices against people of different cultures. My generation helped promote gender, racial and religious tolerance and equality, in spite of our religious upbringing, not because of it. And, if we ask the poor brown man mowing the lawns and picking our vegetables here in California today, he'd probably say, "No, I think America does have a caste system, and I'm on the bottom."
It's funny, a big inspiration for me in the 60's and 70's was Gandhi. I'm in my sixties now, and I'm a better person for the influence that your culture has brought to the United States. I want to know more. I don't care about the evil off-shoots. All religions have had their bad sides. I want to know what has made you a better person, and how you can make the world a better place because of the spiritual insight that only you can bring to the discussion.

Thank you for a well thought out and rational post. Clearly you're a credit to humanity. I think we owe it to humanity to at least intellectually grasp the basics of other religious systems, other political systems, just so we have some sense of tolerance or understanding of why people behave the way they do. It gets annoying when someone who really doesn't get something behaves in an ignorant (I mean this in the 'lack of knowledge' way) manner, telling another human all about that other human's belief system. Its really the difference between reading a book about a city, versus living in that city.

On a trivial side note, thank you for taking the time to learn how to spell 'Gandhi', but in a way that illustrates this point as well.

 

[Surya Deva]

Who cares? No apology was necessary in the first place. I have never seen such appeals to victum hood by any other group in existance.


How does this change anything? By the way 33 Gods or as another Hindu claimed an infinate number are no more intuitive or reasonable. This has significant theological philosphy problems.

I think you will find very few Hindus who actually literally believe in 33 gods or infinite number of gods. Most Hindus believe in one God, and other gods they see as manifestations of his energies or demigods/angels. If you go Hindu temples for instance, you will often find many idols of Hindu gods, and the Hindus will be found worshiping them all or paying homage to them all, but at the same time you will find the general understanding that there is only one god.

The notion of '33 gods' is based on very early Brahmanical Hinduism which was a polytheistic and henotheistic religion, much like early Judaism, but by the end of the Vedic age they had become monotheistic and monisic. Since, this is the general religious understanding that Hindus have had. Very few Hindus today believe literally in many gods.

 

[1robin]

I think you will find very few Hindus who actually literally believe in 33 gods or infinite number of gods. Most Hindus believe in one God, and other gods they see as manifestations of his energies or demigods/angels. If you go Hindu temples for instance, you will often find many idols of Hindu gods, and the Hindus will be found worshiping them all or paying homage to them all, but at the same time you will find the general understanding that there is only one god.

The notion of '33 gods' is based on very early Brahmanical Hinduism which was a polytheistic and henotheistic religion, much like early Judaism, but by the end of the Vedic age they had become monotheistic and monisic. Since, this is the general religious understanding that Hindus have had. Very few Hindus today believe literally in many gods.

Thanks for the info. Let me quite beating around the bush and just ask. What is it outside of tradition and preference that you find reliable enough about Hinduism that makes it's selection given the stakes a wise one.

For example when I am asked for evidence of the Bible's reliability. I usually state:

1. It is by many many times over the most reliable text in ancient history.
2. There is more textual evidence for Christ than any other person in antiquity.
3. It has 25,000 verified historical corroberations.
4. It is philisophically consistent.
5. It contains 2,500 detailed prophecies. Not one is known to have been unfulfilled concerning the ones that should have happened at or before this time. Many concern the future.
6. It maintains a perfect internal consistency over 1500 years plus and over 40 authors.
7. It makes accurate scientific claims that were unknown at the time.
8. It is known to be over 95% free of error and the less than 5% scribal error are known and indicated.
9. It has multiple contemporary eye witness testimony concerning it's core events.
10. Simon Greenleaf the greatest expert on evidence in human history said that it's textuall evidence meets every standard of modern law and history.

You get the idea. I was wondering what in those lines is claimed for the texts used in Hinduism. Also is reincarnation an orthedox Hindu belief?

 

[Surya Deva]

For example when I am asked for evidence of the Bible's reliability. I usually state:

1. It is by many many times over the most reliable text in ancient history.
2. There is more textual evidence for Christ than any other person in antiquity.
3. It has 25,000 verified historical corroberations.
4. It is philisophically consistent.
5. It contains 2,500 detailed prophecies. Not one is known to have been unfulfilled concerning the ones that should have happened at or before this time. Many concern the future.
6. It maintains a perfect internal consistency over 1500 years plus and over 40 authors.
7. It makes accurate scientific claims that were unknown at the time.
8. It is known to be over 95% free of error and the less than 5% scribal error are known and indicated.
9. It has multiple contemporary eye witness testimony concerning it's core events.
10. Simon Greenleaf the greatest expert on evidence in human history said that it's textuall evidence meets every standard of modern law and history.

Thanks, well I do not agree with any of your reasons and they would not convince me, because I personally know them to be all wrong e.g. There is absolutely no historical evidence of Christ during the time he was suppose to live, this is an uncontroversial fact with historians. However, this thread is not to discuss Christianity, so I will answer your questions as to why I chose Hinduism as my religion:

1) As I have a background in science, I became familiar with many leading quantum physicists who said that their discoveries were similar to Hindu philosophies, and greatly appreciated them, even were inspired by them and drew from them to explain problems in physic
2) I realized there was scientific evidence for all core Hindu philosophies: Brahman/Atman = Scientific evidence that reality does not exist without an observer or in that consciousness was the ground of reality and that reality was one single interconnected whole
Maya = Scientific evidence for the universe being holographic and multidimensional
Karma = Evidence in psychology for natural forces which drive our behaviour in our subconscious and unconscious
Reincarnation = Scientific evidence for past life memories
Yoga = Scientific evidence for higher states of consciousness and the acceptance of meditation
Akasha, prana, chakras = Scientific evidence for the quantum field and quantum forces
Yugas = Scientific evidence for evolution and big bang

In short I found that Hinduism was basically a religion that was for the scientist and given my background it was a perfect match. I have not found any other religion on the entire planet that is so scientific.

3) It is the only religion that has its own for formal philosophical schools and is based on intense dialectical reasoning, free thinking and epistemology. This made reading Hindu texts very challenging and intellectually rewarding.
4) It is humanist and ecological, it considers the whole world one family and teaches ethical principles like no-greed, no-violence, no-stealing, speaking honestly and vegetarianism for care for nature and animals
5) It is the oldest living religion on the planet going back approx 10,000 years, it thus has a lot more history than another religion and hence more complexity and development
6) The Yoga practices work. It had made me calmer, clearer, more focused and generally more content with life. I have also experienced spiritual realities too like my subtle/astral body and siddhis(paranormal powers) Hence, as it is directly experienced for me it is no longer belief or idea, but lived experience.

However, bear in mind I practice a very catholic Hinduism which is only based on the Vedas knowledge tradition. Most Hindus do not practice this kind of Hinduism, they practice Puranic devotional Hinduism, which is virtually the total opposite.

 

[1robin]

Thanks, well I do not agree with any of your reasons and they would not convince me, because I personally know them to be all wrong e.g.

I was not attempting to convince you of anything. However the statements I made are facts attested to by countless scholars. They do not prove God exists but they are as close as possible. I have defended them many times and even seen and read transcripts from every proffesional debate that I can find on them and they have never even been close to being shown wrong.

There is absolutely no historical evidence of Christ during the time he was suppose to live, this is an uncontroversial fact with historians.

Then why does his existance appear in over 20 extra biblical sources? Including detailed Roman official documents. Not a single other figure of antiquity has even a meaningfull fraction of the evidence that Christ has.

However, this thread is not to discuss Christianity, so I will answer your questions as to why I chose Hinduism as my religion:

I agree and it was not my intention to debate the Bible but if you pick the one you think you have a chance at showing false I will address it exhaustively in another location.

1) As I have a background in science, I became familiar with many leading quantum physicists who said that their discoveries were similar to Hindu philosophies, and greatly appreciated them, even were inspired by them and drew from them to explain problems in physic

Can you elaborate? I do not see how quantum physics is relatable to Oriental pluralistic philosophy.

2) I realized there was scientific evidence for all core Hindu philosophies: Brahman/Atman = Scientific evidence that reality does not exist without an observer or in that consciousness was the ground of reality and that reality was one single interconnected whole

You seem to be saying that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around it, for some reason it does not make sound waves. Is that correct?

Maya = Scientific evidence for the universe being holographic and multidimensional

I have heard the exact same scientists say that the universe is two dimensional and later on a diffrent show they say it has 11 dimensions. Both claims based on what they said was no evidence and what they said would never have evidence. How is this kind of stuff proof of anything except they really do not know what they are talking about except they must get more grant money.

Karma = Evidence in psychology for natural forces which drive our behaviour in our subconscious and unconscious

I agree with this one but the Bible gives an equally applicable and far more in depth explenation for it. However I do admit I see the consistency here.

Reincarnation = Scientific evidence for past life memories

I do not think anything in this field qualifies as science. Science is empirical and concerns natural law as I am sure you know.

Yoga = Scientific evidence for higher states of consciousness and the acceptance of meditation

I do not have any issue with this.

Akasha, prana, chakras = Scientific evidence for the quantum field and quantum forces

Can you show the verses or texts that bear this out?.

Yugas = Scientific evidence for evolution and big bang

Can you show the verses or texts that bear this out?

In short I found that Hinduism was basically a religion that was for the scientist and given my background it was a perfect match. I have not found any other religion on the entire planet that is so scientific.

The bible makes many scientific claims that are all accurate but is mainly concerned with spiritual issues. Can you show some of these verses that demonstrate this science?

3) It is the only religion that has its own for formal philosophical schools and is based on intense dialectical reasoning, free thinking and epistemology. This made reading Hindu texts very challenging and intellectually rewarding.

I just debated a Hindu who would not even consider that free will is a possible reality. Was that person wrongfully thinking Hinuism supported that?

4) It is humanist and ecological, it considers the whole world one family and teaches ethical principles like no-greed, no-violence, no-stealing, speaking honestly and vegetarianism for care for nature and animals

That is great but it is not proof of anything.

5) It is the oldest living religion on the planet going back approx 10,000 years, it thus has a lot more history than another religion and hence more complexity and development

I do not think age gurantees truth. I also do not think it can be reliably shown to exists that long ago. What evidence suggests it is that old?

6) The Yoga practices work. It had made me calmer, clearer, more focused and generally more content with life. I have also experienced spiritual realities too like my subtle/astral body and siddhis(paranormal powers) Hence, as it is directly experienced for me it is no longer belief or idea, but lived experience.

That is a little too new age metaphysical for me but to each his own.

However, bear in mind I practice a very catholic Hinduism which is only based on the Vedas knowledge tradition. Most Hindus do not practice this kind of Hinduism, they practice Puranic devotional Hinduism, which is virtually the total opposite.

That is a strange claim. What is Catholic about Catholic Hinduism? Are you saying universal Hinduism?

I have a degree in math and am an amateur historian. Let's see if we can dial this in somewhat. Can you post some verses that describe the nature and history of time? I.E. Has the universe or time always existed? Will it always exist? What about thermodynamics? Creation? Fine tuning? Cause and effect as it relates to the universe? That kind of stuff. I am interested how detailed it's explenations and claims are.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Surya Deva]

Can you elaborate? I do not see how quantum physics is relatable to Oriental pluralistic philosophy.

Hindu Vedanta philosophy is the main philosophy which has engaged many quantum physicists, the most important one was the father of quantum mechanics himself Erwin Schrodinger, who even directly used Vedanta terms to explain the findings of Quantum physics. His biographer Walter Moore personally writes that Schrodinger's wave mechanics was strongly influenced by his involvement with Vedanta and his famous Schrodinger cat paradox was actually a reformulated Hindu philosophical paradox which attempted to explain how the observer collapses the quantum state of matter. Another pioneering quantum physicist David Bohm had an Vedanta mentor Krishnamurthi, and Bohm developed this theories from their philosophical intercourse. Yet, another scientist is Nicole Tesla who intercoursed with the famous Hindu Guru Swami Vivekananda and learned Vedanta, he was inspired by the theory of akasha as a single unified material substratum that can unify all energy and matter, he wrote an unpublished paper using Vedantic terms to attempt to unify them(prior to Einstein)

Some relevant quotes:

Schrodinger wrote in his book Meine Weltansicht

“This life of yours which you are living is not merely apiece of this entire existence, but in a certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins express in that sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and so clear; tat tvam asi, this is you. Or, again, in such words as “I am in the east and the west, I am above and below, I am this entire world.”

Schrodinger’s influential What is life? the physical aspect of the living cell & Mind and matter (1944) also used Vedic ideas. The book became instantly famous although it was criticized by some of its emphasis on Indian ideas. Francis Clark, the co-discoverer of the DNA code, credited this book for key insights that led him to his revolutionary discovery.

According to his biographer Walter Moore, there is a clear continuity between Schrodinger’s understanding of Vedanta and his research:

“The unity and continuity of Vedanta are reflected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world view of physics was a model of a great machine composed of separable interacting material particles. During the next few years, Schrodinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on super imposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One."

He became a Vedantist, a Hindu, as a result of his studies in search for truth. Schrodinger kept a copy of the Hindu scriptures at his bedside. He read books on Vedas, yoga and Sankhya philosophy and he reworked them into his own words, and ultimately came to believe them. The Upanishads and the Bhagavad gita, were his favorite scriptures.

(source: The Wishing Tree - By Subhash Kak p. 1 - 7).

In a famous essay on determinism and free will, he expressed very clearly the sense that consciousness is a unity, arguing that this "insight is not new...From the early great Upanishads the recognition Atman = Brahman (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought considered, far from being blasphemous, to represent, the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of the world. The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate in their minds this grandest of all thoughts."

Schrodinger wrote:

“Vedanta teaches that consciousness is singular, all happenings are played out in one universal consciousness and there is no multiplicity of selves.”

“the stages of human development are to strive for Possession (Artha), Knowledge (Dharma), Ability (Kama), Being (Moksha)”

“Nirvana is a state of pure blissful knowledge.. It has nothing to do with individual. The ego or its separation is an illusion. The goal of man is to preserve his Karma and to develop it further – when man dies his karma lives and creates for itself another carrier.”

(source: What is life? the physical aspect of the living cell & Mind and matter - By Erwin Schrodinger p. 87). Refer to What is Life? Published in 1944

Schroedinger explicitly affirmed his conviction that Vedantic jnana represented the only true view of reality- a view for which he was prepared even to offer Empirical proof.

(source: A Short Introduction to Hinduism - By Klaus K. Klostermaier p. 168).

"In all world," writes Schroedinger in his book My View of the World (chapter iv), "there is no kind of framework within which we can find consciousness in the plural; this is simply something we construct because of the temporal plurality of individuals, but it is a false construction....The only solution to this conflict insofar as any is available to us at all lies in the ancient wisdom of the Upanishad."

(source: My View of the World - By Erwin Schroedinger chapter iv).​

He used ancient Sanskrit terminology in his descriptions of natural phenomena.

As early as 1891 Tesla described the universe as a kinetic system filled with energy which could be harnessed at any location. His concepts during the following years were greatly influenced by the teachings of Swami Vivekananda. Swami Vivekananda was the first of a succession of eastern yogi's who brought Vedic philosophy and religion to the west.

After meeting the Swami and after continued study of the Eastern view of the mechanisms driving the material world, Tesla began using the Sanskrit words Akasha, Prana, and the concept of aluminiferous ether to describe the source, existence and construction of matter.

(source: Nicola Tesla, Albert Einstein and Swami Vivekananda).​

37. John Dobson, scientist and a teacher. His theories in physics and cosmology boldly break new ground and significantly challenge the scientific orthodoxy. He was featured in the PBS television series "The Astronomers". John Dobson is perhaps best known for his work in the design and construction of telescopes, however, as most telescopes made today use what is known as a "Dobsonian" mount. He discusses the apparitional nature of the universe and why we are fooled into viewing it in a Newtonian-mechanistic way.

"Can we, by now, square science with religion? In particular, can we square relativity and quantum mechanics with Swami Vivekananda's Advaita Vedanta? Since there cannot be two worlds -- one for the scientists and one for the mystics -- it must be that their descriptions are of the same world but from different points of view. Can we, from the vantage point of the Swami's Advaita (non-dualism), see both points of view? Swami Vivekananda said that science and religion would meet and shake hands. Can we see things from his vantage point? Since the notion of maya or apparition as the first cause of our physics is central to the swami's Advaita, I have chosen as "The Equations of Maya". Can we find them in our physics? According to the philosophy of the Advaita Vedantins, as the swami himself has said, there cannot be two existences, only one. And maya is, as it were, a veil or screen through which that oneness (the Absolute) is seen as this Universe of plurality and change.

(source: The Equations of Maya).​

Bohm was one of the world's greatest quantum mechanical physicists and philosophers and was deeply influenced by both J. Krishnamurti and Einstein, was one of the world's greatest quantum mechanical physicists and philosophers.

David Bohm explains his theory that there is something like life and mind enfolded in everything.

Bohm was profoundly affected by his close contact with J. Krishnamurti.

"Yes, and Atman is from the side of meaning. You would say Atman is more like the meaning. But then what is meant would be Brahman, I suppose; the identity of consciousness and cosmos....This claims that the meaning and what is meant are ultimately one, which is the phrase 'Atman equals Brahman' of classical Hindu philosophy."

(source: http://www.ourworldharmony.com/kDavidBo.htm and http://twm.co.nz/Bohm.html).​

There are literally dozens and dozens of eminent scientists, philosophers of science and physicists who have drawn strong links between Vedanta philosophy and physics. Today, some scientists are using Vedantic terms to describe physical theories like the quantum field is being called the Akashic field.

 

[Surya Deva]

You seem to be saying that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around it, for some reason it does not make sound waves. Is that correct?

No, this is naive idealism. Vedanta is transcendental idealism. It is not the human consciousness which produces this world, but the transcendental consciousness of the absolute reality. Vedanta is monistic idealism, meaning that is the one fundamental reality which is ground of our empirical reality. The empirical reality is a holographic projection of this fundamental absolute reality that many consider the Hindu concept of God, however in reality it is more of pure substance of consciousness and bliss which is the essential reality of the universe.

I have heard the exact same scientists say that the universe is two dimensional and later on a diffrent show they say it has 11 dimensions. Both claims based on what they said was no evidence and what they said would never have evidence. How is this kind of stuff proof of anything except they really do not know what they are talking about except they must get more grant money.

It is not proof, string theory is still too speculative and there is no consensus on how many dimensions there are, although 11 is currently favoured. Until there is no hard empirical evidence string theory will remain speculative. However, string theory is a dead ringer for Vedanta theory of Maya. According to the theory of Maya the entire universe is produced from a single material substratum that exists in a fundamental quantum state where the entire universe exists in a potential state. This Maya is constituted of gunas whose osciilations or vibrations project a multidimensional universe from the highest state of guna vibration(sattva) which is the causal plane and corresponds to the dimension of cosmic intelligence. To the intermediate state(rajas) the subtle plane which corresponds to the dimension of mind to the lowest dimension(tamas) which corresponds to the dimension of physical time and space.

The idea is that reality is really a field of consciousness occupying various dimensions, but it actually phases of some vibrating gunas. This notion that reality is a field of consciousness is now being strongly supported by physics.

I do not think anything in this field qualifies as science. Science is empirical and concerns natural law as I am sure you know.

Indeed, scientific research into OBES, NDE, mind-matter interactions and past life memories is based on the empirical scientific method, and there now exists a tremendous body of evidence in this field to be ignored. In fact some of the hardline skeptics have been forced to accept these. I recommend a book by Dean Radin, a scientist and professor at Harvard entitled "Noetic sciences" he chronicles some of the key experiments in the field.

Can you show the verses or texts that bear this out?.

Can you show the verses or texts that bear this out?

The bible makes many scientific claims that are all accurate but is mainly concerned with spiritual issues. Can you show some of these verses that demonstrate this science?

I will find you some citations from primary texts of Hinduism soon. For now I just describe them for you.

Akasha in Hinduism basically means space. There are two kinds of space: transcendental space and empirical space. The transcendental space is absolute space and is identical to Brahman, i.e., the absolute reality of consciousness. Empirical space is material space, which is the substratum of all matter and energy. This space is non-atomic, all pervading and singular and is the fundamental state of all matter. It is made up of subtle forces or quantum forces known as pranas The human body at the fundamental level is made out of quantum circuits called nadis(quantum channels) and chakras(a plexus of quantum channels) and they distribute energy around the body. They are responsible for the the entire sensory-motor processes of the body.

However, because the akasha is all pervading and not atomic, it means that at the quantum level of the body all the quantum circuits are interconnected. This informs Hindu beliefs in astrology for instance, how the movements of the planets, solar and lunar cycles directly impact the human body.

I just debated a Hindu who would not even consider that free will is a possible reality. Was that person wrongfully thinking Hinuism supported that?

They should consider your arguments and argue with you. I am afraid many Hindus you meet are stubborn and forceful, and rather than debating with you, will impose their beliefs. From the perspective of Vedanta, there is ultimately no free will, because individuals are denied to exist, it is all causal material system governed by the laws of karma. It is purely determinist.
However, from the empirical point of view there is a illusion of individuality and free will. As long as individuality(ego) remains the soul will continue to reincarnate and remain in the dualistic dimensions. When one realizes the absolute reality(or God for many Hindus) one attains liberation(moksha)

I do not think age gurantees truth. I also do not think it can be reliably shown to exists that long ago. What evidence suggests it is that old?

The dating of the Vedas using hard methods like archaeology, astronomy and genetics, geology strongly suggests the Vedas are old as 7000BCE. There is clear evidence of Hinduism being practiced in the Indus Valley civilization and many features that are Vedic are already found within it. Hence Hinduism goes back at the very least to 4000BCE.

That is a little too new age metaphysical for me but to each his own.

It's actually not new age. New age is a syncretic new religious movement which combines Hinduism with Western occultism and can be traced back to the Theosophical society which combined many Hindu theories with Western theories and the synthesis of which was the new age movement. The subtle body for Hindus is very real. The subtle is a body-double that exists within you which is made out of subtle quantum matter. It this part of you which reincarnates and enters the various spiritual realms as per its law of karma.
It corresponds to your dream-body or mental body. It is more fundamental than your physical body so it survives the physical death of your body. There are Yogic techniques whereby you can separate your subtle body from your physical body. I have personally done it, for me it is a reality, not a faith or just an idea.

In OBE and NDE research there is strong evidence to show the subtle body exists, and in some experiments the subtle body has even been isolated by electric fields.

That is a strange claim. What is Catholic about Catholic Hinduism? Are you saying universal Hinduism?

Yes, pure Vedantic Hinduism. If you followed some of the debate earlier in this thread and my thread "The fallacy of Hinduism" There are actually many types of Hinduism: Puranic Hinduism, Folk Hinduism and Vedantic/Yogic Hinduism and Brahmanical Hinduism. Folk/tribal Hinduism is the Hinduism that was practiced in the early Indus valley civilization and is shamanic. Brahmanical Hinduism is early Vedic Hinduism and is now considered defunct(purva mimassa, old testimant) After that came Vedantic/Yogic Hinduism(uttra mimassa, new testimant) and basically of the modern Hindu philosophy and its core doctrines(karma etc) were formulated here. This is known as Shruti(divinely revealed, canonical) Vedantic/Yogic Hinduism is purely based on philosophical contemplation, yoga and meditation.

However, later a degenerate form of Hinduism called Puranic Hinduism came for the masses and all the sects of Hinduism that we know today Vaishnavism, Shiavism and Shaktism formed. The inferior religious practices like idol worship, mythology, superstition and caste system all started here.
This is known as Smriti(not divinely revealed, manmade) Therefore Catholic or pure Hinduism is ONLY Vedantic/Yogic Hinduism. This is indeed a universal scientific kind of Hinduism, which is very popular with intellectuals, scientists, philosophers etc

 

[Surya Deva]

I have a degree in math and am an amateur historian. Let's see if we can dial this in somewhat. Can you post some verses that describe the nature and history of time? I.E. Has the universe or time always existed? Will it always exist? What about thermodynamics? Creation? Fine tuning? Cause and effect as it relates to the universe? That kind of stuff. I am interested how detailed it's explenations and claims are.

Thanks for the info.

The answers are all according to Vedantic Hinduism:

From the point of view of absolute reality there is no time, space, individuality . This absolute reality Brahman/Atman is pure infinite, eternal, unchanging homogeneous substance of consciousness whose nature is pure bliss.

There is a famous Vedic mantra that tells us this "This is whole, that is whole, from wholeness comes wholeness, if wholeness is taken away from wholeness, wholeness alone remains" The idea is that it is impossible for the fundamental reality which is whole, infinite, unchanging to produce a reality which is the exact opposite i.e., our material reality of time, space, causality, plurality, individual minds etc.
Thus it is explained by the theory of Maya: The empirical reality is a holographic projection of the absolute reality. This absolute reality is not apparent to us because our senses are imperfect to apprehend it. Through meditation we can purify our mind and apprehend this pure reality directly.

The empirical reality does not just refer to the physical world, but also the mental world, the spiritual realms, souls/minds. As I said earlier, the material universe is multidimensional and consists of several dimensions ranging from the dimension of pure intelligence(causal) to the dimension of dense physical matter(gross) This entire empirical reality is governed by the laws of causality i.e the guna activity.

Like Schrodinger I am convinced Vedanta is absolute truth. It is the most logical metaphysics the human man has ever conceived and it is backed up strongly by modern science, especially quantum physics. It is strongly backed up by other religions too. For instance in Vedanta there is a personal creator which is basically the highest dimension of empirical reality(cosmic intelligence) but the absolute reality of Brahman is transtheistic - It is beyond everything imaginable, including our concepts of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

However much the guru's that came to California in the 60's and 70's had to do with anything that resembled a traditional Hindu belief system, I don't know. That is part of what I would like to find out. Having grown up in what seemed like a spiritually dead time in the 50's and early 60's, what happened at the end of the decade did seem like the dawning of a new age, the times were a changing.
As a kid watching my Catholic Christian family light candles and pray to Mary didn't mean anything to me. It didn't fit into my reality. Eastern thought did. I wasn't very healthy on a "normal" American diet of hamburgers, a milk shake and french fries. Eating natural, whole foods "saved" me physically. Those ideas came from the East. I didn't find it in the Christian Bible. And anything to do with food in the Hebrew Bible wasn't followed and deemed no longer important for Christians anyway.
Connecting mind, body and soul--a more holistic way of looking at life made me physically and spiritually stronger. Yoga exercises added to that. Flexibility helped me live a happier and healthier life. Than came Fundamental Christianity.
In the mid-70's when the "Jesus Freak" movement really got going, friends invited me to become a Christian, to get saved from the penalty of original sin. No other way, I was told, could save me, only believing and trusting Jesus. That was fine, but it made everything else not only wrong, but evil, as tricks of the devil to lead me astray. I had to ask myself, does the devil really care if I stretch or not? I don't think so.
I tried the Fundamental version of Christianity, and I know it works for those that believe, but it didn't work for me. Their world view leaves me with way too many questions that just don't add up.
I would rather give all the world's religions a chance to state their case for validity, then to automatically assume they are false. To exclude them without even learning something about them isn't fair to them and to yourself. Overly zealous, overly literal believing people have helped create the mess we're dealing with right now. How can people and their religion fix the problem. I see it as a great big jig-saw puzzle. Without the pieces from India and the Hindu religion, the puzzle will never be complete.

 

[Vinayaka]

However much the guru's that came to California in the 60's and 70's had to do with anything that resembled a traditional Hindu belief system, I don't know. That is part of what I would like to find out.

In my view, very little. For the most part, they 'adjusted' the teaching to an American audience. Personally, although I'm in the minority, I think this did a disservice to both sides. Traditional Hinduism suffered because it got watered down, and the Americans suffered because it lead to confusing beliefs. But I come from a traditional POV. Maybe it worked for some people.

 

[ratikala]

In my view, very little. For the most part, they 'adjusted' the teaching to an American audience. Personally, although I'm in the minority, I think this did a disservice to both sides. Traditional Hinduism suffered because it got watered down, and the Americans suffered because it lead to confusing beliefs. But I come from a traditional POV. Maybe it worked for some people.

think I have to agree in large part ..." they 'adjusted' the teaching to an American audience. Personally, although I'm in the minority, I think this did a disservice to both sides. Traditional Hinduism suffered because it got watered down, and the Americans suffered because it lead to confusing beliefs" .....

but then I am a traditionalist too !

Im sure it had , has its benifits but it also has its pitfalls .
the same thing happened with buddhism both in america and england alike .
simply creating new isms .