Why is everybody so concerned with migrant family separation?

[serp777]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated? Its just a fallacious appeal to emotion-- "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! =-(". I really don't get it. The people who are so concerned aren't spending a second worrying about the millions who die every year from preventable causes. And yet they think this family separation thing is the worst atrocity since the holocaust.

Also, before anyone makes the strawman that i'm somehow saying we can only care about the largest cause of deaths, that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that we should care proportionally based on those things that have the most impact. Lets prioritize things that have the most negative effect. So basically, I care about migrant family separations compared to car accidents about 3000 / 1.3 million %, assuming I cared about deaths vs family separations the same, which I obviously don't because death is much worse than separation. At best that's .2%. Where's the logic in me caring about family separations of migrants when so many die in car accidents, for example?

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

 

[Sunstone]

First, your figure for deaths from car accidents is either meaningless (because you don't specify the time period over which the "1.3 million" deaths occur), or absurdly exaggerated (because the annual number of deaths is much, much less than that).

Second, who are you to tell people what they should be concerned about?

Third, you have not demonstrated that the concern most people are showing for the families is politically motivated because you have not supported your reasoning with empirical evidence. You are merely speculating.

Fourth, your calculus for how much you feel others should be concerned about things is overly simplistic. For one thing, you again fail to provide empirical evidence that those responding to the family separations are not responding also to other matters, such as suicides.

All in all, your argument fails.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I could drive over a family of baby ducklings and use the OP's argument to justify that action. Unneeded harm to others is always immoral and should be avoided. What need is there to separate a mother from her baby?

 

[sayak83]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated? Its just a fallacious appeal to emotion-- "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! =-(". I really don't get it. The people who are so concerned aren't spending a second worrying about the millions who die every year from preventable causes. And yet they think this family separation thing is the worst atrocity since the holocaust.

Also, before anyone makes the strawman that i'm somehow saying we can only care about the largest cause of deaths, that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that we should care proportionally based on those things that have the most impact. Lets prioritize things that have the most negative effect. So basically, I care about migrant family separations compared to car accidents about 3000 / 1.3 million %, assuming I cared about deaths vs family separations the same, which I obviously don't because death is much worse than separation. At best that's .2%. Where's the logic in me caring about family separations of migrants when so many die in car accidents, for example?

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

This OP is nonsense.

 

[Sunstone]

I could drive over a family of baby ducklings and use the OP's argument to justify that action. Unneeded harm to others is always immoral and should be avoided. What need is there to separate a mother from her baby?

If you did, I would care precisely .00007% what I would care if you drove over a flock of 1000 chickens.

 

[Sunstone]

This OP is nonsense.

Especially, the notion "it's been going on forever". I see that slung about, but never evidenced.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you did, I would care precisely .00007% what I would care if you drove over a flock of 1000 chickens.

Baby ducks are easy. A thousand chickens? Are you crazy?

Sadly I sometimes feel that Trump would drive over ducklings given the opportunity.

 

[Sunstone]

Sadly I sometimes feel that Trump would drive over ducklings given the opportunity.

From what we've seen, that would most likely increase his popularity with his base.

 

[Misunderstood]

First, your figure for deaths from car accidents is either meaningless (because you don't specify the time period over which the "1.3 million" deaths occur), or absurdly exaggerated (because the annual number of deaths is much, much less than that).

I think he is giving the annual world deaths in auto accidents, in 2013 it was 1.25 million.

http://www.who.int/gho/road_safety/mortality/traffic_deaths_number/en/

Second, who are you to tell people what they should be concerned about?

I agree what each person is concerned about is very subjective.

Third, you have not demonstrated that the concern most people are showing for the families is politically motivated because you have not supported your reasoning with empirical evidence. You are merely speculating.

I reread the OP and saw no mention of a political motivated cause. Maybe it could be inferred if you had that mindset, but I see no direct statement indicating political motivation.

Fourth, your calculus for how much you feel others should be concerned about things is overly simplistic. For one thing, you again fail to provide empirical evidence that those responding to the family separations are not responding also to other matters, such as suicides.

For the point he is making I think the math works out. It may not be exhaustive in taking into account every possible variable, but it defines how he feels his concern for other is established. As I said, concern is very subjective, not everyone will feel the way he does as peoples' concerns are sometimes very emotional, his is based on logic.

 

[Misunderstood]

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

After I posted my reply I was able to read more of the OP and saw what I quoted above. So he did make a statement indicating politics. I stand corrected.

 

[Sunstone]

I reread the OP and saw no mention of a political motivated cause. Maybe it could be inferred if you had that mindset, but I see no direct statement indicating political motivation.

I think that's strongly implied, especially by the last sentence of the OP.

For the point he is making I think the math works out. It may not be exhaustive in taking into account every possible variable, but it defines how he feels his concern for other is established. As I said, concern is very subjective, not everyone will feel the way he does as peoples' concerns are sometimes very emotional, his is based on logic.

Logic can be deceptive. For instance, if there is a genocide occurring in Uganda, and another occurring in Indonesia that is ten times as great, should we devote only one tenth of the resources to the one as we do to stopping the other? What if one tenth is not enough to stop the one?

Again, how do you compare apples to oranges? How does 5,000 family separations (or whatever the number is) stack up against 40,000 suicides? What is the proper way to quantify human suffering? Until you can answer that, his logic is reduced to subjective judgments. And even if you do quantify human suffering, it's a subjective matter whether to accept the quantification.

 

[Misunderstood]

Logic can be deceptive. For instance, if there is a genocide occurring in Uganda, and another occurring in Indonesia that is ten times as great, should we devote only one tenth of the resources to the one as we do to stopping the other? What if one tenth is not enough to stop the one?

Very true! Logic is a very good tool to use in some instances, but not all. In your scenario, I feel logic would say to send all resources to Indonesia, threaten Uganda to stop or we will come there when we get done.

But, I do not feel a logical approach would be good at comforting a mother that lost a child.

Again, how do you compare apples to oranges? How does 5,000 family separations (or whatever the number is) stack up against 40,000 suicides? What is the proper way to quantify human suffering? Until you can answer that, his logic makes no sense.

I agree, you cannot tell someone what should concern them more, only they can tell you what concerns them the most. I was just pointing out he was using a logical approach to how he is concerned about events.

 

[fantome profane]

Car accidents are just that - accidents. The children being ripped away from their parents is no accident. It is intentional malice designed to score political points.

The suffering a child feels when taken from their parents in this way is no less than what a child feels when their parents die in a car accident. You may understand that the parents are still alive and they might be reunited, but does a 4 or 5 year old know that?

And so far most of these children have not been reunited with their parents as the court ordered. Some of these children may never see their parents again.

No, the level of caring is not too high, it is too low.

 

[fantome profane]

.... and if we are going to compare these two things, look at how much time and effort goes into preventing car accidents. From the decades of engineering of the cars themselves designed to prevent accidents and to prevent injuries or fatalities when accidents occur. Consider construction and engineering of roads. Not to mention the constant upkeep. Consider the billions of traffic signs and lights designed to prevent car accidents. Consider the manufacturing and maintenance of those signs. Consider the billions of pages of regulations and legislation all with the purpose of preventing car accidents. Consider the work of police and courts that enforce those laws designed to prevent car accidents, not to mention other emergency services that work to make car accidents survive-able. Consider all this time and effort dedicated to the issue of car accidents.

Now consider that for the other issue there have been some protests and demonstrations. Actually more time and effort has gone into separating these families than has gone into preventing the separations.

If the proportional response is off, it is off the other way.

 

[Augustus]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated?

Car accidents are an unavoidable consequence of car ownership, and suicides the result of complex social forces and mental health issues. Neither can be easily remedied but both are problems that people are trying to solve.

How to deal with illegal immigrant families is the direct result of purposeful government policy and can be changed almost instantly with little effort.

They are not similar issues.

 

[Mox]

As I said, concern is very subjective, not everyone will feel the way he does as peoples' concerns are sometimes very emotional, his is based on logic.

Your indifference to human suffering is crystal, and your argument is irrational.

I hope that you never need anyone to stand up for you, I would be most disinclined to, for one.

 

[Mox]

The people who are so concerned aren't spending a second worrying about the millions who die every year from preventable causes. And yet they think this family separation thing is the worst atrocity since the holocaust.

Any deliberate act intended to cause human suffering (in order to achieve a political aim) is rightly questionable and actionable.

The fact people die in road accidents is entirely irrelevant.

 

[pearl]

. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated?

You are comparing 'accidents' with a deliberate act!

 

[Mox]

From what we've seen, that would most likely increase his popularity with his base.

I try not to hate Trump's fan base, but it isn't easy, my emotional response arises from a very genuine concern for the well being of others, not to mention the security and stability of this planet.

When you have people like this posting nonsense, trying to excuse or justify Trump's cruelty, you soon realise how desperate they are, and how ignorant they are.

These 'people' want to normalise pitilessness toward children and others, they are in my view, the worst of the worst of our kind. Certainly no friends of mine.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Deaths from car accidents are 1.3 million and deaths from suicide are 43,000 per year. So why do we care so much about some kids being separated? Its just a fallacious appeal to emotion-- "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! =-(". I really don't get it. The people who are so concerned aren't spending a second worrying about the millions who die every year from preventable causes. And yet they think this family separation thing is the worst atrocity since the holocaust.

Also, before anyone makes the strawman that i'm somehow saying we can only care about the largest cause of deaths, that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that we should care proportionally based on those things that have the most impact. Lets prioritize things that have the most negative effect. So basically, I care about migrant family separations compared to car accidents about 3000 / 1.3 million %, assuming I cared about deaths vs family separations the same, which I obviously don't because death is much worse than separation. At best that's .2%. Where's the logic in me caring about family separations of migrants when so many die in car accidents, for example?

And let me also just mention that this has been happening for several decades, and nobody has cared or mentioned it at all. This is simply politicized nonsense.

If you really think we should prioritize our actions this way, why did you spend your energies on this post?

Surely the fact that people care about suffering children more than you think they should is much less of a problem than all the things you listed off, too... as well as less of a problem than the suffering everyone is concerned about.

So what “percentage of caring” do you give to your concern that people care too much about immigrant kids being separated from their parents? I can only assume that you care more about this issue than you do about any other problem you’re aware of but not doing anything about, right?

Take the epidemic of opioid deaths: surely you’ve heard about it, right? So why are you spending time and energy to complain about kids too much when you could have used that time and energy doing something about that... or any other problem?

How did “people care too much about immigrant kids” become enough of a priority for you to work on it right now?