Why have Christians forgotten the fourth Commandment?

[Scott C.]

And you still have not shown, from SCRIPTURE, anything that even hints that Saturday is the seventh day.

What is so hard to understand about it?
If you cannot show a correlation between the current days of the week and the seventh day, then your argument can be used to 'prove' that ANY day of the week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, is the seventh day the Bible speaks of.
Since your argument can be used to prove any of them the seventh day, your argument is not worth anything.

I wasn't trying to prove that Saturday was the Old Testament Sabbath. My argument was addressed to those who already accept that as a fact. I wanted to explain that the day was changed in New Testament times, to the following day, and we are still expected to keep the Sabbath, but in a different manner than under the Mosaic Law. As far as proving Saturday, I don't think I can. I know in Spanish the word for Saturday is Sabado, which means Sabbath. I know the Jews accept Saturday as their Sabbath. Is it possible that somewhere in history we got confused in counting and our Saturday is not really the old Saturday? I suppose, but doubt it. But, that doesn't matter to me. I guess I'm just not on your train of thought and it doesn't interest me to prove that Saturday was the original Sabbath. Sorry.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Unfortunately, the underlying issue here is the legalization of Christianity! We have been FREED from all laws except the Law of Love. We went from devoting only a tithe (%10) of our lives to God to devoting ALL (%100) instead. We should not hold just Sunday (or Saturday) holy: WE NEED TO KEEP ALL DAYS HOLY!

 

[maremf]

I think you have to look at the principal behind the commandment, which I think would be there is one day out of seven in which you should rest and what better day is there to spend extra time worshipping? I believe research has even shown that people need this one day to have their bodies rest. And often "a change is as good as a rest"

 

[logician]

Unfortunately, the underlying issue here is the legalization of Christianity! We have been FREED from all laws except the Law of Love. We went from devoting only a tithe (%10) of our lives to God to devoting ALL (%100) instead. We should not hold just Sunday (or Saturday) holy: WE NEED TO KEEP ALL DAYS HOLY!

Why does anyone need to LOVE everybody?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Why does anyone need to LOVE everybody?

Love is the only thing that counts. Spiritual logic often leaves worldly logic behind!

 

[Scott C.]

Unfortunately, the underlying issue here is the legalization of Christianity! We have been FREED from all laws except the Law of Love. We went from devoting only a tithe (%10) of our lives to God to devoting ALL (%100) instead. We should not hold just Sunday (or Saturday) holy: WE NEED TO KEEP ALL DAYS HOLY!

We can't keep all days holy in the same way as the Sabbath or we would never be able to attend to out temporal, non-spiritual affairs.

But, I want to pursue what you mean by "freed from all laws expect the Law of Love". Again, I know the Law of Love is the highest and most important law. May I ask a few questions to try to understand what you mean?

Do you believe a Christian can sin?
If so, does this mean a Christian can violate the will of God?
If so, does this mean God has things he wants us to do and things he does not want us to do?
If so, would you call these commandments?
If so, do you call this God's law?
Can there be sin without law?
Or are you simply saying that anytime someone sins, it's because they violated the only law, being the law of love?
Example, a Christian steals from his neighbor. He did not violate the commandment "thou shalt not steal", as this commandment no longer exists. Rather, he violated the commandment "thou shalt love everyone". Is that what you're saying?

I'm not trying to argue here, but I've never been able to get my head around the "freed from law" concept, as I've heard it expressed by many Christians. Again, I understand being freed from the Law of Moses, but not freed from all divine expectations of behavior (commandments).

 

[sojourner]

We can't keep all days holy in the same way as the Sabbath or we would never be able to attend to out temporal, non-spiritual affairs.

Or, maybe we could attend to our temporal affairs and offer them to God as prayer...

 

[madhatter85]

I may be wrong but i read that the Catholic Catechism does not include the named 4th commandment in the OP. they omit that and split the coveting into 2 commandments to form 10 overall commandments.

 

[Scuba Pete]

We can't keep all days holy in the same way as the Sabbath or we would never be able to attend to out temporal, non-spiritual affairs.

God does not look at worship as an hour or day set apart for singing and praying. Our lives are supposed to be lived for God, 24/7/365/the rest of your life!

Colossians 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. NIV

But, I want to pursue what you mean by "freed from all laws expect the Law of Love". Again, I know the Law of Love is the highest and most important law. May I ask a few questions to try to understand what you mean?

Christians have been released from the "laws of death carved in tablets of stone".

II Corinthians 3:4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! NIV

And there are other scriptures telling us how Jesus fulfilled the law, how all things are clean and so on!

Or are you simply saying that anytime someone sins, it's because they violated the only law, being the law of love?

Bingo! Except, it's not me that is saying it: it's all Scriptural...

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. NIV

You can read the whole chapter here: Galatians 5

 

[Scott C.]

Christians have been released from the "laws of death carved in tablets of stone".
. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. NIV

Greetings Scuba Pete:

I looked on the internet to see what other Evangelicals (if that is how what you consider yourself) say about the law and the gospel. I found these writing from Ernest Reisinger formerly of the Grace Baptist Church (deceased). He seems to agree that there is such a thing as gospel law, but strikes a balance between the law and the gospel. Do you agree with the following statements?:

Why is the subject of "law and gospel" important? Let me state six reasons:

1. Because there is no point of divine truth upon which ministers and Christians make greater mistakes than upon the proper relationship which exists between the law and the gospel.
2. Because there can be no true evangelical holiness, either in heart or life, except it proceed from faith working by love; and no true faith, either of the law or the gospel, unless the leading distinction between the one and the other are spiritually discerned. The law and the gospel are set before us in the Bible as one undivided system of truth, yet an unchangeable line of distinction is drawn between them. There is also an inseparable connection and relationship. Unfortunately, some see the difference between them but not the relationship; however, the man who knows the relative position of the law and the gospel has the keys of the situation in understanding the Bible and its doctrine.
3. Because a proper understanding between the law and the gospel is the mark of a minister who rightly divides the word of truth. Charles Bridges summed up this mark of a true minister: "The mark of a minister `approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed', is, that he `rightly divides the word of truth.' This implies a full and direct application of the gospel to the mass of his unconverted hearers, combines with a body of spiritual instruction to the several classes of Christians. His system will be marked by Scriptural symmetry and comprehensiveness. It will embrace the whole revelation of God, in its doctrinal instructions, experimental privileges and practical results. This revelation is divided into two parts--the Law and the Gospel--essentially distinct from each other; though so intimately connected, that no accurate knowledge of either can be obtained without the other...." (The Christian Ministry, [London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1967], p. 222).
   The law, like Christ, has always been crucified between two thieves--Antinomianism on the one side and Legalism on the other side. The antinomian sees no relationship between the law and the gospel except that of being free. The legalist fails to understand that vital distinction between the two.
   Some preach the law instead of the gospel. Some modify them and preach neither the law nor the gospel. Some think the law is the gospel, and some think the gospel is the law; those who hold these views are not clear on either.
   But others ask, Has not the law been fully abrogated by the coming of Christ into the world? Would you bring us under that heavy yoke of bondage which none has ever been able to bear? Does not the New Testament expressly declare that we are not under the law but under grace? That Christ was made under the law to free His people therefrom? Is not an attempt to over-awe men's conscience by the authority of the Decalogue a legalistic imposition, altogether at variance with that Christian liberty which the Savior has brought in by His obedience unto death? We answer: so far from the law being abolished by the coming of Christ into this world, He Himself emphatically stated "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets [or the enforcers thereof]. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law, till all is fulfilled" (Matt. 5:17, 18). True, the Christian is not under the law as a covenant of works nor as a ministration of condemnation, but he is under it as a rule of life and an objective standard of righteousness for all people for all times. This makes it important.
4. Because the power of a holy life needs to be accompanied by instruction in the pattern of it. In what does sanctified behavior consist? It consists in pleasing God. What is it that pleases God? The doing of His will. Where is His will to be discerned? In His holy law. The law, then, is the Christian's rule of life, and the believer finds that he delights in the law of God after the inward man (Rom. 7:22). The Christian is not lawless but "under the law to Christ", a phrase from Paul which would be more accurately rendered "in the law of Christ" (1 Cor. 9:21). Sin is lawlessness, and salvation is the bringing of the lawless one into his true relation to God, within the blessedness of His holy law. The law of Moses is not other than the law of Christ; it is an objective standard just as Christ is our pattern.
5. Because the Ten Commandments were uniquely honored by God, founded in love, and are obeyed out of affection for the One who provided redemption. A. W. Pink, writing about the uniqueness of the Ten Commandments, said, "Their uniqueness appears first in that this revelation of God at Sinai--which was to serve for all coming ages as the grand expression of his holiness and the summation of man's duty--was attended with such awe-inspiring phenomena that the very manner of their publication plainly showed that God Himself assigned to the Decalogue peculiar importance. The Ten Commandments were uttered by God in an audible voice, with the fearful adjuncts of clouds and darkness, thunders and lightenings and the sound of a trumpet, and they were the only parts of Divine Revelation so spoken--none of the ceremonial or civil precepts were thus distinguished. Those Ten Words, and they alone, were written by the finger of God upon tables of stone, and they alone were deposited in the holy ark for safe keeping. Thus, in the unique honor conferred upon the Decalogue itself we nay perceive its paramount importance in the Divine government." (The Ten Commandments, ([Swengel Pennsylvania: Reiner Publications 1961], p.5).
6. Because there is a need for a fixed, objective, moral standard. The moral law carries permanent validity since it is an objective standard uniquely sanctioned by God and goes straight to the root of our moral problems. It lays its finger on the church's deepest need in evangelism as well as in the Christian life: sanctification. The Ten Commandments are desperately needed not only in the church but also in society. We live in a lawless age at the end of the twentieth century; lawlessness reigns in the home, in the church, in the school, and in the land. The Scriptures tell us that "righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people." The Ten Commandments are the only true standard of righteousness.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't read about a "Gospel Law" anywhere in the Scriptures, so it must not be that important. What about Galatians 5 do you disagree with? Why does Freedom frighten you so much?

 

[astarath]

Ebionites believe that the Law is unchanging and binding.

 

[Bishka]

I don't read about a "Gospel Law" anywhere in the Scriptures, so it must not be that important. What about Galatians 5 do you disagree with? Why does Freedom frighten you so much?

Obedience is freedom.

How is that a problem?

 

[astarath]

Obedience is freedom.

How is that a problem?

YOu are in for one doozie of an argument!!!!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Obedience is freedom.

How is that a problem?

Not true. You can be obedient to just about anything.

Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. NIV

So, it's not just the fourth commandment that I ignore: it's ALL of them. Jesus fulfilled the law that treated us as children and has written his law of love on my heart. If you don't read the scriptures using the power of the Spirit, this will elude you completely.

 

[astarath]

But you read one book to ignore the other. Ephesians tells you to be Christ like in your actions. WWJD essentially. However the Law defines what is sin and Christ being without sin adhered to the Law down to the finest note. If we are to be Christ Like are we not to strive to fulfill the Law as well to the best of our ability? Read my signature for the verse that leads me to believe that we should.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If we are to be Christ Like are we not to strive to fulfill the Law as well to the best of our ability?

What does it mean to FULFILL the law? It surely doesn't mean to obey it, but to complete it.

The Christian is called imitate Jesus' sacrifice as he laid down his life as a sacrifice to fulfill the law. This is entirely based on LOVE and not on words carved in stone.

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. NIV

For those who still base your righteousness on obeying laws, read what Paul had to say about it...

Philippians 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. 7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. NIV

How many of you feel that you should be circumcised? Why not? You are either UNDER the law or not.

 

[astarath]

You only quote the words of Paul but the Words of Christ say that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from the law until the end of all things. Whosoever shall teach this shall be great in the kingdom and whoever does not shall be least!

To who's word do you adhere that of Christ or of Paul?
And one of the definitions for fulfill and the most accurate translation of the original greek word is:

ful·fill

/fʊlˈfɪl/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[foo

l-fil]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1.to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise. 2.to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.


#2 To perform or do as a a duty!

 

[McBell]

You only quote the words of Paul but the Words of Christ say that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from the law until the end of all things. Whosoever shall teach this shall be great in the kingdom and whoever does not shall be least!

To who's word do you adhere that of Christ or of Paul?
And one of the definitions for fulfill and the most accurate translation of the original greek word is:

ful·fill

/fʊlˈfɪl/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[foo

l-fil]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1.to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise. 2.to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.


#2 To perform or do as a a duty!

I disagree.
Here is why:

Mat 5:17
Think3543 not3361 that3754 I am come2064 to destroy2647 the3588 law,3551 or2228 the3588 prophets:4396 I am not3756 come2064 to destroy,2647 but235 to fulfill.4137
​

From Strong's:

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
​

From Thayer's:

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
​

 

[astarath]

2c3 to cause God Law to be obeyed as it should be and 2b2 are the to connation most commonly associated with the text due to the surrounding text refering to the specificity of Law of Moses and the length of time it will be applied to the end. Good night for now mesetemia i am sure we will cross paths again.