Why have Christians forgotten the fourth Commandment?

[Brian Schuh]

First, the thread you direct me to is utterly ridiculous, and from what I've read, you've constantly ignored objections to your fantasy.

Also, tell me exactly which of the 613 mitzvot commands explicitly that a man must marry. No doubt, traditionally, it is considered important for a Jew to marry and father children, and such may very possibly be found in the Talmud, but which of the mitzvot says that?

If a Jew devotes himself entirely to God and if a wife would detract him from such devotion, he is not obligated to marry.

 

[Brian Schuh]

First, the thread you direct me to is utterly ridiculous, and from what I've read, you've constantly ignored objections to your fantasy.

Also, tell me exactly which of the 613 mitzvot commands explicitly that a man must marry. No doubt, traditionally, it is considered important for a Jew to marry and father children, and such may very possibly be found in the Talmud, but which of the mitzvot says that?

The command to marry is mitzvah P213, Deuteronomy 24:1. If one marries, there is a procedure. Just like the command to divorce P222, there is a proper procedure. Deuteronomy 24:1. Doesn't mean one must marry or that one must divorce. The command is that if you want to marry or divorce, there is a proper way to do that. No one believes that because divorce is one of the commands, that one must divorce. Just if you do, the command tells how to make it official. Same with marriage. Make sense?

 

[Brian Schuh]

Ben ~ The Genesis deluge never happened according to archaeology so there never was a Noah or Noah's laws so thay can't be binding on anyone. arlan

Although I believe there was a flood, the Seven Laws are binding because they were repeated at Mt. Sinai, not because they were told to Noah.

 

[Brian Schuh]

St. Paul made it clear, some believers hold some days special and other believers hold every day the same. Some believers refuse to eat meat (either unclean meat or that sacrificed to idols) and other believers eat anything at the market. St. Paul simply said not to judge each other on these issues for that could cause some to lose faith.

 

[Berserk]

Hey Paul, does it matter if we worship on the Sabbath or Sunday?
"One man esteems one day above another. Another esteems every day the same. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

But Paul, this thread is judging us for worshiping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath?
"Let no one judge against you on the basis of ...festivals and new moons and Sabbaths (Colossians 2:16).."

But Paul, what about the 4th commandment and the Law of Moses?
"Christ is the end of the Law for every one who believes (Romans 10:4)."

But Jesus, you allowed your disciples to work on the Sabbath by picking corn. By what right do you violate Sabbath law in that way?
"The Sabbath was made for people [to serve their best interests]; people were not made for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27)."

In any case, John says, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (Greek: "kyriakon"--Revelation 1:10)." And what is the Lord's day? In the Gospel of Peter "kyrialkon" is identified as Sunday, the day His tomb was found empty.

 

[Brian Schuh]

Hey Paul, does it matter if we worship on the Sabbath or Sunday?
"One man esteems one day above another. Another esteems every day the same. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

But Paul, this thread is judging us for worshiping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath?
"Let no one judge against you on the basis of ...festivals and new moons and Sabbaths (Colossians 2:16).."

But Paul, what about the 4th commandment and the Law of Moses?
"Christ is the end of the Law for every one who believes (Romans 10:4)."

But Jesus, you allowed your disciples to work on the Sabbath by picking corn. By what right do you violate Sabbath law in that way?
"The Sabbath was made for people [to serve their best interests]; people were not made for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27)."

In any case, John says, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (Greek: "kyriakon"--Revelation 1:10)." And what is the Lord's day? In the Gospel of Peter "kyrialkon" is identified as Sunday, the day His tomb was found empty.

Yep, as for Christian doctrine, just about right.

 

[CG Didymus]

...Man, back in those days they got all these guys to write letters and never made a contradiction to what was in the OT or what the other guy was writing ...

:ko:

It amazes me that so many Christians don't see any contradictions between their Bible and the Jewish Bible. But when I read it, I see them everywhere. Like, how long are the Jewish people told to keep practicing the Law that their God gave them? Doesn't it say "forever" in a couple of places? And, wouldn't that include keeping their Sabbath? So if God has done away with his Law, then has God contradicted himself?

 

[psychoslice]

The church of Rome took away the forth commandment, and made it into a Sunday worship.

 

[psychoslice]

I'm referring to the fact that the Bible makes no allowances for the differences in calendars. The sabbath certainly wasn't "Sunday" or "Saturday".

But how come the Jews who have always kept the Sabbath, still keep it on Saturday ?.

 

[CG Didymus]

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Sorry Ben,, this does not say don't hate, so that it won't lead to murder,, or don't lust so that it doesn't lead to adultery. This says that if you do it in your mind and heart, then you are guilty of the action. The deed of the law was expanded to include the spirit of the law, not to be replaced by it. The actions and the spirit go hand in hand.

James 2.18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.... 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


mik

I've only read a few of the posts on this thread, but your post here I think brings up an important issue. Some Christians like to say that the Jews couldn't perfectly keep the law and to fail in one point was to be guilty of all. The penalty, they like to say, is death. The whole thing about the "letter" of the Law versus the "spirit" of the Law brings up something interesting also. Does any, or can any, Christian obey the commands of Jesus not to be angry and not to lust? I would really question anybody that says they can stay in the "spirit" of loving God and Jesus to the point of never breaking these commands.

So does that make Christians guilty of all? And, if they do get angry and lust once in a while, does that mean they haven't truly repented? And, to me, the big issue, does this mean that Christians can't obey the commands God gave Christians? If so, then God's rules, laws and commands are not practical and can't be followed by the letter, or by the spirit or in any way. Which makes the poor believer, that wants to do "God's" will, in a constant cycle of breaking his Laws and trying to, but unable to repent. The other problem is that it leaves some to hate, but more likely, to lust in private, and then to lie about it, and pretend they are all good with God.

But, speaking of pretending, the Jews were told by God to stone those that broke many of his commands, including breaking the Sabbath. For several centuries this was the Law, but then did God change his mind? Was that not all that important to him? Was it only a game? For all those years people got stoned to death for breaking Laws that Christians like to say are impossible to follow. God, supposedly, set up the rules. He defined enough of the laws for the people to know what they must do to the law breaker. It wasn't "traditions" added later. It was God in his rule book. And then he changes the rules? Then he abolishes the stoning? He says that the Sabbath isn't all that important anymore? Unfortunately, for me, it makes me question the whole thing. Is any of it really from God, or was it people making up rules?

 

[Berserk]

It amazes me that so many Christians don't see any contradictions between their Bible and the Jewish Bible. But when I read it, I see them everywhere. Like, how long are the Jewish people told to keep practicing the Law that their God gave them? Doesn't it say "forever" in a couple of places? And, wouldn't that include keeping their Sabbath? So if God has done away with his Law, then has God contradicted himself?

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Well, keep in mind that the Hebrew word "olam," usually translated as "forever" is less precise than that; it\ just means "for a long time."
Also, keep in mind progressive revelation and Paul's declaration that "Christ is the end of the law for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)."

 

[CG Didymus]

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Well, keep in mind that the Hebrew word "olam," usually translated as "forever" is less precise than that; it\ just means "for a long time."
Also, keep in mind progressive revelation and Paul's declaration that "Christ is the end of the law for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)."

Two problems, English Bibles then are very misleading. And, a lot of people are dead for a long time, because they got stoned for breaking rules that God only meant for a short time. But, for sure, it is very "progressive" to be rid of God's Biblical laws since they don't apply very well today. Like I'd hate to become ceremonially unclean every time I bump into a woman going through a biological thing her body does every month.

However, we still have laws and rules and moral codes and things. And a lot of them are based on "Judeo-Christian" beliefs. They need to be progressive too don't they, because people and society changes? Or, are they written in stone? Since they came from "God's" Word? If, however, these rules came from another religion, other than Christianity, then who made them? Man and not God? Yet, those cultures treat them as if they did come from God... their concept of God that is, and we all think of those people as superstitious and backwards or worse, that they are following false gods and prophets.

But, like I said, I'm so glad Christianity was "progressive" enough to do away with the strict laws that came with keeping the Sabbath, except, though, the Catholics. My parents were Catholic and I was told that to miss Mass on Sunday was a "mortal" sin. Where did these rules come from? Man or God? Is that true or only something made up to scare people into going to church?

 

[Brian Schuh]

I've only read a few of the posts on this thread, but your post here I think brings up an important issue. Some Christians like to say that the Jews couldn't perfectly keep the law and to fail in one point was to be guilty of all. The penalty, they like to say, is death. The whole thing about the "letter" of the Law versus the "spirit" of the Law brings up something interesting also. Does any, or can any, Christian obey the commands of Jesus not to be angry and not to lust? I would really question anybody that says they can stay in the "spirit" of loving God and Jesus to the point of never breaking these commands.

So does that make Christians guilty of all? And, if they do get angry and lust once in a while, does that mean they haven't truly repented? And, to me, the big issue, does this mean that Christians can't obey the commands God gave Christians? If so, then God's rules, laws and commands are not practical and can't be followed by the letter, or by the spirit or in any way. Which makes the poor believer, that wants to do "God's" will, in a constant cycle of breaking his Laws and trying to, but unable to repent. The other problem is that it leaves some to hate, but more likely, to lust in private, and then to lie about it, and pretend they are all good with God.

But, speaking of pretending, the Jews were told by God to stone those that broke many of his commands, including breaking the Sabbath. For several centuries this was the Law, but then did God change his mind? Was that not all that important to him? Was it only a game? For all those years people got stoned to death for breaking Laws that Christians like to say are impossible to follow. God, supposedly, set up the rules. He defined enough of the laws for the people to know what they must do to the law breaker. It wasn't "traditions" added later. It was God in his rule book. And then he changes the rules? Then he abolishes the stoning? He says that the Sabbath isn't all that important anymore? Unfortunately, for me, it makes me question the whole thing. Is any of it really from God, or was it people making up rules?

Like the Roman Catholic who confesses and takes mass on Sunday, just to repeat the same sins again by Saturday night. Look, it is easier to keep the Torah than it is to obey Jesus, believe it or not. No matter how easy the yoke of Christ, the yoke of Torah is easier. Like I say, believe it or not.