Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[SoyLeche]

I was just saying that a traditional Christian, who understands the biblical principle of becoming righteous through belief,
most likely would not even want to inquire into a religion that does not believe this.

I just have one more thing to say. Your reasoning still doesn't make sense to me.

I would understand if you were to say "why would they inquire into a religion that taught exactly what they already believe". What would be gained from it? It would be pretty much a waste of time.

The reason to inquire is because it is different from what you currently believe.

After all, what is better than a God who sees you as righteous just because you believe.

Oh, and I thought of one more thing that would be better: How about a God who sees you as righteous just because you believe and causes Snicker's bars to grow on the trees in my back yard. That would be AWESOME!!!

Of course, a God who expects more from you than just belief and causes the whole snickers thing would be even better.

Still, a God that exists trumps them all.

 

[neillien]

. . . How about a God who sees you as righteous just because you believe and causes Snicker's bars to grow on the trees in my back yard . . .

LOL because it was funny and sounds like what would have been said by Calvin (of Hobbes fame, not predestination fame).
Frubal because it was very poignant.

What Mr. Milk is saying is that we shouldn’t choose our religion because it sounds best. Instead, our religion should be sound.
And I would add don’t choose because it feels best.

. . . I would understand if you were to say "why would they inquire into a religion that taught exactly what they already believe" . . . The reason to inquire is because it is different from what you currently believe . . .

Understand it this way. If a new religion might be different but it also proposed that Joseph Smith did not pen the Book of Mormon, you would only inquire into that new religion for interest sake, not conversion. Because you would know better.

And here’s how I know better:
The 1st covenant helps me to understand the new covenant; the law, sacrifice, righteousness, our sins, our savior.
I’ve never read a better breakdown than in the Bible of how it all is fulfilled. It assuredly tells me that humans can’t do it, it has to be God. And, when it says we’re righteous through belief, it makes sense.

So, if someone wants me to check out a religion that says I can make myself righteous, then this new “updated” religion is just like the 1st covenant; self reliability.

. . . Of course, a God who expects more from you than just belief and causes the whole snickers thing would be even better. . .

Like I just said, Judaism . . . but with candy bars instead of manna.

. . . Was not Abraham our father justified by works . . .

This justification is a separate occurrence in time. Before this event, God came to Abram and spoke. Abram believed and was said to be righteous. His later obedience with Isaac did not make him righteous. But it did justify his righteousness.

. . .faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" . . .

The Christian goal is to be perfected through works, not to be made righteous by works.

First off, I was of the understanding that you fully understood LDS doctrine. I guess I was wrong. . . .

The more I learn, the more I need to know.

But to answer your question, we believe, as the scriptures state, that faith without works is dead. A dead faith is useless. . .

I believe that, too. But if Abraham hadn’t believed and been righteous to begin with, I don't think he would have obeyed.
The scriptures also talk about people whose works will amount to nothing on judgement day. They will be saved but it will be "as if going through fire." This is the value of believing; even if you have no works to bring to God, He promises to save you.

. . . How could reading a book which testifies of Jesus Christ and then asking God for wisdom in knowing of its truth be against Christian teachings. . .

I do not know of Christian teachings that would disagree with you here.
You’re making me alter my thinking.
I guess, even if a church has beliefs that contradict my faith, it doesn’t mean that they weren’t inspired originally. I could indeed read their writings and meditate about it, although I would not join their church.

 

[SoyLeche]

LOL because it was funny and sounds like what would have been said by Calvin (of Hobbes fame, not predestination fame).
Frubal because it was very poignant.

What Mr. Milk is saying is that we shouldn’t choose our religion because it sounds best. Instead, our religion should be sound.
And I would add don’t choose because it feels best.

Not quite, but you got part of it. Mostly what I'm trying to get at is "be open to the chance that what you currently believe is wrong".

Understand it this way. If a new religion might be different but it also proposed that Joseph Smith did not pen the Book of Mormon, you would only inquire into that new religion for interest sake, not conversion. Because you would know better.

I'm not asking you to convert. I'd be plenty happy if you looked into it just for curiosity.

This justification is a separate occurrence in time. Before this event, God came to Abram and spoke. Abram believed and was said to be righteous. His later obedience with Isaac did not make him righteous. But it did justify his righteousness.

The Christian goal is to be perfected through works, not to be made righteous by works.

The more I learn, the more I need to know.

I believe that, too. But if Abraham hadn’t believed and been righteous to begin with, I don't think he would have obeyed.
The scriptures also talk about people whose works will amount to nothing on judgement day. They will be saved but it will be "as if going through fire." This is the value of believing; even if you have no works to bring to God, He promises to save you.

From this, it seems like our beliefs may not be as different as you and I may think they are. Mostly it seems like the differences are in how we define different terms and a bit of difference in degree.

For example, I believe that righteousness requires a desire to become perfected in Christ. James says it rather well in chapter 2. A profession of belief in and of itself is pretty useless.

I believe that God wants me to be a better person than I am, and that in order to get there I am going to have to make decisions that get me there. I will require God's help at every step along that journey - I can't do it alone. God making those decisions for me wouldn't accomplish the same goal, though.

Also, just as a suggestion - when you say that "the Bible says...", it is usually customary to point out where the Bible says these things. Again, though, this is getting off topic and should probably be moved to another thread.

 

[uss_bigd]

The book of mormons is not considered valid because there is a doctrine written there that violates

1 Tim 3:2.

"two contradicting things can never be both true" but i maintain the stance that nobody is condemned.

 

[Katzpur]

The book of mormons is not considered valid because there is a doctrine written there that violates

1 Tim 3:2.

"two contradicting things can never ebe both true" but i maintain the stance that nobody is condemned.

Hello, Marc.

Would you mind citing an example or two of where the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible? That would be a good place for us to start our discussion.

 

[uss_bigd]

Hello, Marc.

Would you mind citing an example or two of where the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible? That would be a good place for us to start our discussion.

I did not say everything contradicted the bible if i may clarify. i said their is a particular doctrine that contradicts 1 Tim 3:2.

I don't know where to find the mormon doctrine, because i just saw an excerpt. but you can check 1 tim 3:2 then youd be able to match it with the mormon doctrine.

 

[Katzpur]

I did not say everything contradicted the bible if i may clarify. i said their is a particular doctrine that contradicts 1 Tim 3:2.

I don't know where to find the mormon doctrine, because i just saw an excerpt. but you can check 1 tim 3:2 then youd be able to match it with the mormon doctrine.

I've just finished reading 1 Timothy 3:2, and am unaware of any verse in the Book of Mormon which contradicts it.

 

[uss_bigd]

I've just finished reading 1 Timothy 3:2, and am unaware of any verse in the Book of Mormon which contradicts it.

I will agree that there could be similarities between the book of Mormons and the Bible.

But isn't true that the fundamentalist CLDS was once one and the same with the Mormon church, and Joseph Smith the founder had several wives and the CLDS original doctrine condoned to polygamy?

That Violated 1 tim 3:2.

But i know the Mormon church have long changed that. that is why they seperated from the Fundamentalist CLDS. but that is another story.

 

[Katzpur]

But isn't true that the fundamentalist CLDS was once one and the same with the Mormon church, and Joseph Smith the founder had several wives and the CLDS original doctrine condoned to polygamy?

A number of splinter groups split off from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after Joseph Smith's murder. Some of these splinter groups practiced polygamy. Others did not.

But i know the Mormon church have long changed that. that is why they seperated from the Fundamentalist CLDS. but that is another story.

Well, FLDS split from us, not the other way around.

By the way, may I ask your opinion of the Biblical prophets such as Abraham who had more than one wife? Why do you think it was that God never told him he was sinning? It's kind of out of character for God to fail to say that He was displeased with something if that was the case. God seemed quite pleased with Abraham, and with other Old Testament prophets who had more than one wife. Plural marriage is permissable when sanctioned by God for His purposes. Otherwise, it is prohibited.

 

[uss_bigd]

A number of splinter groups split off from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after Joseph Smith's murder. Some of these splinter groups practiced polygamy. Others did not.

Well, FLDS split from us, not the other way around.

By the way, may I ask your opinion of the Biblical prophets such as Abraham who had more than one wife? Why do you think it was that God never told him he was sinning? It's kind of out of character for God to fail to say that He was displeased with something if that was the case. God seemed quite pleased with Abraham, and with other Old Testament prophets who had more than one wife. Plural marriage is permissable when sanctioned by God for His purposes. Otherwise, it is prohibited.

As we have discussed a while back. Old testamement laws were made obosolete by the change of priesthood. (book of hebrews)

I agree that plural marriages in the OT were allowed. But it was no longer allowed during the time of Christ (as authenticated by 1 Tim 3:2), hence polygamy is not a Christian Practice.

 

[Sola'lor]

As we have discussed a while back. Old testamement laws were made obosolete by the change of priesthood. (book of hebrews)

I agree that plural marriages in the OT were allowed. But it was no longer allowed during the time of Christ (as authenticated by 1 Tim 3:2), hence polygamy is not a Christian Practice.

Keep in mind polygamy was condemned in the Book of Mormon too. It makes no sense that if Joseph Smithw rote the Book of Mormon that he would have it be condemned in his book but then have it be practised in his time.

What we are saying is that sometimes God will allow polygamy and then condemn it. It just depends on the time and condition of the people that the commandments are revealled to.

 

[uss_bigd]

What we are saying is that sometimes God will allow polygamy and then condemn it. It just depends on the time and condition of the people that the commandments are revealled to.

I agree. unfortunately your statement will apply only to the people in the OT and the NT

But remember, Joseph Smith condoned polygamy after the time of Christ.

and, if we should remain consistent with the teachings of Christ. he shouldn't have condoned to polygamy, but he did.:angel2:

 

[Sola'lor]

I agree. unfortunately your statement will apply only to the people in the OT and the NT

But remember, Joseph Smith condoned polygamy after the time of Christ.

and, if we should remain consistent with the teachings of Christ. he shouldn't have condoned to polygamy, but he did.:angel2:

Yes but Christ was speaking specifically to the people of those times. We believe the God of the Old Testament(Jehovah) is Jesus Christ(before he was born). So it was Christ condoning polygamy in those times.

Technically Christ's teachings in the New Testament are irrelevent to us now days. We hear what God wants for us right now today through the living prophet. Whatever was revealed before is irrelevent. What is important is what is revealed to us right now. Please don't take this to mean that we don't value the NT or the OT. We hold both of those books as sacred scripture and we can learn many important things from them.

What I am saying is that when Joseph Smith revealed polygamy that was what God wanted those people to live at that time. Even if Christ taught against it to the people in the NT. Polygamy is what Christ wanted the people in Joseph Smiths time to live. That commandment was taken away and currently God doesn't want us to live polygamy.

So basically the point is God reveals through His living prophets what He want us to live right now this very hour. Even if that revelation contradicts what is written in previous scripture. But generally it won't contradict because for the most part God's commandments are applicable equally to all people. But there are times when different types of people need different commandments to help them come closer to Him.

 

[neillien]

. . .there is a doctrine written there that violates 1 Tim 3:2 . . .

Does the Bible condemn polygamy? It states that people who are authorities in the NT church should have one wife only. Yes, there were plenty of OT problems but I've yet to read one of the 613 Hebrew laws against multiple wives.

It is a man made law in the U.S.; not a God-made law.

 

[SoyLeche]

Does the Bible condemn polygamy? It states that people who are authorities in the NT church should have one wife only. Yes, there were plenty of OT problems but I've yet to read one of the 613 Hebrew laws against multiple wives.

It is a man made law in the U.S.; not a God-made law.

Actually, it just says Bishops. It doesn't say anything about other authorities either.

 

[Starfish]

I love the argument that Joseph Smith WROTE the Book of Mormon, and then purposely put things in it to condemn himself. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it.

 

[SoyLeche]

I love the argument that Joseph Smith WROTE the Book of Mormon, and then purposely put things in it to condemn himself. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it.

Well, to be fair - he "wrote" the book before he started dabbling in polygamy. If anything, he "wrote" the book, then acted against what it said.

It's a good thing that he "wrote" himself an out though

 

[neillien]

. . . when you say that "the Bible says...", point out where. . .

I apologise. I will amend my “bible says” comments.

. . . "be open to the chance that what you currently believe is wrong".

So, you don't have any dogma?

. . . I'd be plenty happy if you looked into it just for curiosity.

Be happy. I have looked and have been ensconced. I just prefer discussing as a pro-Christian instead of coming off as an anti-Mormon.
But, I'm not against delving into any LDS subject.

. . . our beliefs may not be as different . . .

True dat.

James says . . . A profession of belief in and of itself is pretty useless.

The righteousness that you receive from believing is the beginning of your relationship with Christ.
You receive the Holy Ghost who teaches you all things. (John 14:26)
Unlike the 1st covenant where only priests could come to God, now every believer is a priest (1 Pet. 2:9) and can go directly to God.

If you believe, you will be tested (James 1:2ff). If you pass (like Abraham did) you will be justified.
Your faith, making you righteous, combines with your works, and this makes you justified and your faith perfect (2:22).

If your works don’t pass or you just go against God, there will be a fiery judgment (Heb 10:26).
Paul gave a man to Satan to save his soul (1 Cor 5:5). Also, if a believer has no works to show, he will be saved but as going through fire (1 Cor 3:15).

God wants me to be a better person than I am, [agree]
and . . . I am going to have to make decisions that get me there. [disagree]
I will require God's help at every step along that journey - I can't do it alone. [agree]
God making those decisions for me wouldn't accomplish the same goal, though.[disagree]

Romans 9:21; The potter has the right to do what he wants with the clay

 

[Starfish]

Well, to be fair - he "wrote" the book before he started dabbling in polygamy. If anything, he "wrote" the book, then acted against what it said.

It's a good thing that he "wrote" himself an out though

Along these lines--Book of Mormon critics say a major flaw is that it says Christ was born in Jerusalem. Any 5 yr-old knows he was born in Bethlehem. So why would Joseph, who was brilliant enough to WRITE a book that has fooled millions for nearly 200 years, be so dumb as to WRITE Jerusalem as Christ's birthplace?

Hmmmm, maybe he didn't.

 

[neillien]

Actually, it just says Bishops. It doesn't say anything about other authorities either.

1Tim 3:12, Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife.
The greek is "Diakonos" meaning teacher, minister, pastor.