Why don't ALLAH come down and say I am GOD so that every one will be a Muslim

[Prancer]

My soul.

Oh... if I have you correct, you're saying your soul convinces you that your soul exists, which is like saying that my hand convinces me that my hand exists, correct?

That's very creative, but I'm genuinely curious as to what a soul is. I know it's a soul, but that doesn't describe its essence or how it has these tenets that you describe.

Take for instance, a hand is a 5 digit appendage which extends from the arm.

What, then, is a soul?

 

[Penumbra]

Not as simple as that. Man's corrupt ways, due to the influence of the Devil has made things all the more difficult to find the right path due to God giving free will. Yet many still do find him.

How do you know they find him?

What if, hypothetically, Islam was the religion that the devil created to lead people away from a far more loving and powerful god? What if Muslims were the one's under deception? I mean, judging by how the Qur'an and yourself describe your deity, he's got zero empathy and tortures 999/1000 of people. Sounds like the villain of the story, rather than the hero, doesn't it?

What if, then, a religion sprang up to save people from Islam, and claimed that all Muslims know in their soul that they're following the devil, rather than god, but their hearts are refusing to believe.

See how easy it can be flipped around? That's why evidence and solid information is more useful than simply believing some book or some culture's oral teachings.

Ok fine, not to you it isn't.

Simple, if anything their God says doesn't add up. I.e their God got something wrong. Then they can't be correct can they?

If their God got everything right... then what are the chances... hmm...?

No, and that's why I've never felt any reason to believe anything out of Islam. I don't see a lot of "right" coming from it.

Which is flawed.

I still haven't seen any sort of solid argument against it.

Given a 50-button land mine with 50 people each shouting to press one of the buttons, you're simply one of the 50 people. Hence the land-mine problem. Even if one of these 50 people really knew the right button, how would he show that he knows more than the other 49? Objective evidence and solid reasoning, to start.

 

[IslamDude]

So... wouldn't the best strategy be to ensure messengers never get places? That would ensure a 100% entry rate into heaven would it not?

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Qur'an - Az-Zaariyaat 51:56[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]And I (Allâh) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me.

[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Entry to heaven is our concern, not God's.
[/FONT]

Let's take a fictional island called Island. There's a community of people there who've never heard of Islam or any Abrahamic faith. Are they therefore all heavenbound by fiat?

As far as my understanding goes, if no messenger is sent to them they can't be punished. That isn't to say they will enter heaven either. I honestly don't know.

Is it not true that sending a messenger there would reduce the rate of heavenbound souls from 100% to 1% (if your 99/100 statement is accurate)?

I can't say if they were going to heaven in the first place, only that they wouldn't be punished.

If someone on Island is a serial murderer, does he still get to heaven since he hasn't been warned by a prophet?

No idea.

Why on earth would Allah make it so difficult for us atheists to understand it? Why not simple proof so that we can make an informed choice? Do you agree that when eternity is on the line, playing games with "who comes to the right belief or not" is a little sick and twisted without providing good, solid evidence to everyone?

I don't think you got your atheistic belief system from God's guiding hand. If you're going to blame a supernatural entity. Satan will happily opt for that.

What clear proof of his existence? I don't see it. Please point it out to me.

Well he made Adam with his owned hands, breathed life into him and taught him. Satan's deception got Man kicked out of heaven. Things haven't been so rosy since.

I just require evidence to believe something before I adopt the belief. That evidence can be empirical, it can be metaphysical, it can be epistemic or ontological -- just something that indicates that a statement in question is true beyond a rational doubt. It must be internally consistent (not contain contradictions) and externally consistent (not contradict other knowledge that's known to be true).

A book that says "This book is true" is not, in itself, evidence. Particularly when there are many such books that contradict each other and all claim to be true.

Unless God or an angel gave it to Man directly.

You have good logic. And if you indeed want the truth and are not merely providing logical constructs to justify your personal emotions and desires. Then I'm sure you will find the truth. I'm sorry I can't provide.

It really isn't that much of a bother for a being with infinite power to provide solid evidence to each and every individual at some point in their lives; and a being with infinite knowledge would know exactly what it takes to convince them.

It isn't much of a bother to Him not to, either. Unfortunately =/

A being which does not give people an informed choice (such as I'm experiencing right now -- if Allah exists, I am not informed) is nothing short of the most evil, malevolent, grotesque demon in existence that even Satan pales in comparison to if it punishes people eternally (or allows them to be punished) for a choice that they had to make blindly.

You may not be informed right now. That's not to say for the rest of your life.

I had the same problem with someone very close to me. They also professed faith, but said they didn't have an informed choice of such. Only the blind belief. That person being quite the rationalist, thus dwindled in their faith.

I on the other hand have seen and experienced things first hand that make what I believe undeniable. I'd have to delete memories to ever detract what I believe. Not every Muslim is blessed with attaining true faith. I hope you do find your informed choice in the duration of your life time.

Let's say that your parents believe in leprechauns. One day you decide to ask them why. They say they believe in leprechauns because their great, great, great grandparents saw one.

Should you believe it without questioning its authenticity even a little? Or is it prudent to question whether or not that was actually the case?

If you say that you should question it, then you realize exactly why only appearing a few times through history and sending sporratic prophets is a failure of a mechanism for providing reason to believe. If you agree that great-great-grandparents claiming to see a leprechaun isn't a good reason for YOU to believe it, then you are agreeing that God using prophets is a very inefficient system; and you shouldn't be surprised that atheists exist who doubt the authenticity of all the contradicting stories people tell about gods.

If you say that you should NOT question it, then... well... you must believe in all legends everywhere, right?

Very good argument. However, leprechauns didn't provide a holy scripture, a perfect way of life or any means of communication. If they did however, and everything they left behind added up in conclusive terms of their existence, then there is no harm rationally to believe.

Also, new prophets are sent when the Word of God is forgotten or tampered with. As long as the Quran remains in tact, there will be no need. However Jesus will still return.

 

[IslamDude]

This guy claimed to be a messenger or god and now his Muslim brethren want him dead. How do you explain that? http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...tes/106929-palestianian-atheist-arrested.html

How would you like me to explain it?

 

[IslamDude]

Oh... if I have you correct, you're saying your soul convinces you that your soul exists, which is like saying that my hand convinces me that my hand exists, correct?

Correct.

That's very creative, but I'm genuinely curious as to what a soul is. I know it's a soul, but that doesn't describe its essence or how it has these tenets that you describe.

Take for instance, a hand is a 5 digit appendage which extends from the arm.

What, then, is a soul?

The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.

 

[Kerr]

Well if anyone has any more or less free will than another, then it isn't equal. And therefore I'd be wrong.

My point was not a point about free will. It was about how some people are able to twist and manipulate the truth. My free will does not matter that much if someones manages to trick me.

He made heaven and hell. And only ONE thing that gives you eternal damnation.

Why, you ask?

I'm not sure.

In that case I just find it unfair... to put it in a very mild manner. Especially considering that it means that being a serial killer wouldn´t give someone eternal damnation.

 

[IslamDude]

How do you know they find him?

What if, hypothetically, Islam was the religion that the devil created to lead people away from a far more loving and powerful god? What if Muslims were the one's under deception? I mean, judging by how the Qur'an and yourself describe your deity, he's got zero empathy and tortures 999/1000 of people. Sounds like the villain of the story, rather than the hero, doesn't it?

What if, then, a religion sprang up to save people from Islam, and claimed that all Muslims know in their soul that they're following the devil, rather than god, but their hearts are refusing to believe.

I can't say for sure really. What if the Devil sent you to demonize Islam by clever manipulation of words?

What ifs, are good thinking pointers and while you make good points, what ifs are almost always subjective.

See how easy it can be flipped around? That's why evidence and solid information is more useful than simply believing some book or some culture's oral teachings.

Well if you're going to put it that way, he could also have just made us start in heaven, enjoying eternal bliss for absolutely nothing too. If you're going to make everything that simple, why go through the trouble of the a test?

No, and that's why I've never felt any reason to believe anything out of Islam. I don't see a lot of "right" coming from it.

What's right or wrong rationally is down a person's opinion in the end. However I was speaking of things adding up to be right or wrong. If God "got" something wrong for instance.

Also, that's besides the point. The point was making it clear that finding the right religion was as simple as finding axiomatic flaws.

I still haven't seen any sort of solid argument against it.

Given a 50-button land mine with 50 people each shouting to press one of the buttons, you're simply one of the 50 people. Hence the land-mine problem. Even if one of these 50 people really knew the right button, how would he show that he knows more than the other 49? Objective evidence and solid reasoning, to start.

Comparing Buttons to complex multifarious belief systems isn't a fair analogy to begin with. On a 50 button landmine with only one right button. Each button is only right or wrong and is wholly based on which button the programmer designed to free you from your explody fate. Whether he left any marks or not is another issue.

As for people telling you which button to press. It all depends on whether you're talking to a 50 button landmine expert or a random Joe. That being a master or not. Whereas for religion there are hundreds of different experts on each religion, referring back to the analogy, they would be experts on one single button that probably makes you explode. It either makes you explode or not. Whether religious clerics have a world of knowledge where some things are right and some things aren't. There's only black and white with explody buttons. So the analogy simply doesn't apply to begin with.

I'm sure you see now how ridiculous pushing metaphors to the extreme can get. It really seems to be a waste of time.

 

[Prancer]

The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.

You said before:
"Regardless, the soul still knows. If a person goes against the nature of the soul then they will lose the light of guidance bestowed upon them.'

I must then ask, since you have a very concise description verbatim to the Oxford English dictionary, if this is immaterial how does the soul "know" and how does one go "against it's nature"? Perhaps you don't know the answer to those questions... If that is the case then how do you know that it can "know" and how do you know it has a nature that can be gone against?

The simple response is that there are no answers to these questions. You know nothing of the soul's nature nor of what it knows because the Quran and Hadith speaks very little of it. Remember you're talking with an ex-Muslim, one of the things that led me away from Islam is realizing how much of a contrast there was between what you were taught and what is actually in the books. In essence no one practices Islam in the way it was intended. That's the first step you must take. This "knowing" that you say the soul has and its "nature" you speak is just nonsense taught to you by people that know nothing more than you do. Either that or you're making it up yourself.

You can't just invent things on the spot because they make sense to you at the time.

Debate honestly...

 

[IslamDude]

My point was not a point about free will. It was about how some people are able to twist and manipulate the truth. My free will does not matter that much if someones manages to trick me.

In that case I just find it unfair... to put it in a very mild manner.

So basically you're saying that some people would be inherently more easier to trick than others. That would indeed make things unfair, but to what noticeable degree? How much less or more easier to trick must a person be for things not to be fair. Need it be inherent or not?

Especially considering that it means that being a serial killer wouldn´t give someone eternal damnation.

What do you believe is deserving of eternal damnation?

 

[IslamDude]

You said before:
"Regardless, the soul still knows. If a person goes against the nature of the soul then they will lose the light of guidance bestowed upon them.'

I must then ask, since you have a very concise description verbatim to the Oxford English dictionary, if this is immaterial how does the soul "know" and how does one go "against it's nature"? Perhaps you don't know the answer to those questions... If that is the case then how do you know that it can "know" and how do you know it has a nature that can be gone against?

Because I was once in heaven, as a soul. Not in my material body.

The simple response is that there are no answers to these questions. You know nothing of the soul's nature nor of what it knows because the Quran and Hadith speaks very little of it. Remember you're talking with an ex-Muslim, one of the things that led me away from Islam is realizing how much of a contrast there was between what you were taught and what is actually in the books. In essence no one practices Islam in the way it was intended. That's the first step you must take. This "knowing" that you say the soul has and its "nature" you speak is just nonsense taught to you by people that know nothing more than you do. Either that or you're making it up yourself.

You can't just invent things on the spot because they make sense to you at the time.

Uh... no.

Debate honestly...

=/

 

[Penumbra]

I can't say for sure really. What if the Devil sent you to demonize Islam by clever manipulation of words?

The devil sent me to point out that torture is bad and that empathy and love are better. He's quite a villain!

What ifs, are good thinking pointers and while you make good points, what ifs are almost always subjective.

And that's why they should be discarded. Metaphysical concepts are narratives rather than facts.

Well if you're going to put it that way, he could also have just made us start in heaven, enjoying eternal bliss for absolutely nothing too. If you're going to make everything that simple, why go through the trouble of the a test?

Exactly! I don't know why you have such a fixation on the concept that torture is necessary at all.

What's right or wrong rationally is down a person's opinion in the end. However I was speaking of things adding up to be right or wrong. If God "got" something wrong for instance.

Also, that's besides the point. The point was making it clear that finding the right religion was as simple as finding axiomatic flaws.

And I think I've found quite a bit of flaws. Notice how often you are saying that you don't know, or that you have no idea. It's because the model you are working with doesn't stand up very well to scrutiny.

Admitting that one doesn't know something is important, and noble. But when one gets to a point where the model itself just doesn't make sense, continuing to not only believe it but to also assert that everyone in the world really believes it in their soul is kind of odd.

Comparing Buttons to complex multifarious belief systems isn't a fair analogy to begin with. On a 50 button landmine with only one right button. Each button is only right or wrong and is wholly based on which button the programmer designed to free you from your explody fate. Whether he left any marks or not is another issue.

As for people telling you which button to press. It all depends on whether you're talking to a 50 button landmine expert or a random Joe. That being a master or not. Whereas for religion there are hundreds of different experts on each religion, referring back to the analogy, they would be experts on one single button that probably makes you explode. It either makes you explode or not. Whether religious clerics have a world of knowledge where some things are right and some things aren't. There's only black and white with explody buttons. So the analogy simply doesn't apply to begin with.

I'm sure you see now how ridiculous pushing metaphors to the extreme can get. It really seems to be a waste of time.

The metaphor, if anything, makes the whole scenario more reasonable than it really is. So pointing out the flaws in the purposely simple metaphor only shows how the real situation is even more ridiculous.

In the real world, rather than some land mine, we've got religious people from all around the world telling their stories, making their claims, offering their evidence, etc. Some of their stories include one god, some include another god, some include many gods, some include no gods, some involve reincarnation, some involve a single life, etc. Some of them are quite beautiful and kind depictions while other ones are dark, sadistic, and full of violence and suffering.

 

[Meow Mix]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Entry to heaven is our concern, not God's.

[/FONT]

But it's still blood on God's hands if he doesn't give us the adequate means to get there. You claim that he does, but I respectfully disagree. I've been an atheist since my mid teens and I've never seen concise evidence or anything close to it for the existence of gods, let alone that specific one (Allah).

It's not that I'm closed minded: if there is a good reason to believe and I run across it, I will adopt it. Of course I would; why would I want to suffer forever?

But it hasn't happened. If I reach my death bed and that still hasn't happened, is it my fault for being finite and unable to find concise evidence to make an informed choice, or is Allah himself also to blame for not making sure that I'm well-equipped to make the single most important decision in my brief earthly existence?

Imagine for a second what hell might be like. Imagine being, say, dropped in a pool of maggots that burrow into your skin and eyeballs but you can't die. A thousand years go by, and you realize that it might as well have just started because you have infinity ahead of you. A billion years go by and you realize that you might as well have just arrived, because you still have infinity ahead of you.

Do you think that's a decision to be taken lightly? Do you think it's just a willy-nilly game to play, "Oh let's see who comes to the right decision or not, too bad for those who miss the clues?"

Really honestly think about it -- I know this is more of an emotional plea, but it also flies in the face of reason that a good/benevolent god would allow people to make a choice with such ramifications without making absolutely 100% sure that they're making a completely informed choice about it. Do you agree?

If you agree, then why do rational atheists exist? Something doesn't add up there. Or do you really believe that everyone does get an absolutely convincing evidence at some point in their lives and that they just ignore it? I find that very difficult to believe.

It would be very convincing to me if people in nursing homes around the West started spontaneously converting to Islam because Allah finally showed them evidence. But that simply doesn't happen.

It appears that the only explanation that covers all the facts, as Autoaddict says, is that it's likely that no such being exists.

Very good argument. However, leprechauns didn't provide a holy scripture, a perfect way of life or any means of communication. If they did however, and everything they left behind added up in conclusive terms of their existence, then there is no harm rationally to believe.

Also, new prophets are sent when the Word of God is forgotten or tampered with. As long as the Quran remains in tact, there will be no need. However Jesus will still return.

But I haven't seen anything holy about the Quran, the Bible, the Vedas, or any other supposedly "holy" text. They all contain errors, many of them contain misogyny and fail to denounce slavery. They give every indication of having been written by bronze age farmers rather than by a divine being as far as I've been able to see so far. As for a perfect way of life, I haven't seen many Islamic countries that aren't cesspools of human rights violations and backwards thought in their governments. I'm not saying it's Islam's fault, I'm just saying Islam certainly hasn't helped matters at all -- which one would expect if it was a divine system. One of the Islamic nations with the highest qualities of life as far as I've seen is also the most moderate/secular, Turkey.

None of it adds up. A more prosaic explanation is that people are inherently superstitious and some of those superstitions have survived to this day, and people simply have a habit of usually believing what their parents instill in them from day one. There are exceptions, but it is by fare the general rule that people will simply believe whatever their families believe.

 

[Prancer]

Because I was once in heaven, as a soul. Not in my material body.

Since you have no memory of this whatsoever, why would I believe this to be true?

 

[IslamDude]

The devil sent me to point out that torture is bad and that empathy and love are better. He's quite a villain!

See, very "clever" manipulation of words =P

Exactly! I don't know why you have such a fixation on the concept that torture is necessary at all.

And happiness is necessary?

And I think I've found quite a bit of flaws. Notice how often you are saying that you don't know, or that you have no idea. It's because the model you are working with doesn't stand up very well to scrutiny.

Wrong. I have only managed to commit to memory little more than a 6th of that model. I still have a lot to learn about my own faith and I'm not ashamed to say so. That is the reason I say I don't know or have no idea.

There are many who give answers anyway, just for the sake of saving face in a debate. But they're just making stuff up. I refuse to do that. If I debate on behalf of my faith, I do my best to bring you to the source.

Admitting that one doesn't know something is important, and noble. But when one gets to a point where the model itself just doesn't make sense, continuing to not only believe it but to also assert that everyone in the world really believes it in their soul is kind of odd.

Well I haven't gotten to a part that doesn't make sense. What makes sense to me doesn't necessarily make sense to you. Same with all other beings on the planet with respect to each other.

The metaphor, if anything, makes the whole scenario more reasonable than it really is. So pointing out the flaws in the purposely simple metaphor only shows how the real situation is even more ridiculous.

In the real world, rather than some land mine, we've got religious people from all around the world telling their stories, making their claims, offering their evidence, etc. Some of their stories include one god, some include another god, some include many gods, some include no gods, some involve reincarnation, some involve a single life, etc. Some of them are quite beautiful and kind depictions while other ones are dark, sadistic, and full of violence and suffering.

Like I said, if there is anything in a religion that is axiomatically wrong within itself. E.g contradictions and the like then it proves itself to be false. Therefore the flawless religion would be the correct one.

Note my argument is against your analogy (not sparking an Islam is flawless debate, however another topic if you will), a person can evaluate religion to determine its credibility.

There only comes a problem with my logic here if there were a numerous flawless religions to choose from. Then things will certainly be indeterminate and I would agree that it be to the liking of a 50 button landmine with only one correct one.

 

[IslamDude]

Since you have no memory of this whatsoever, why would I believe this to be true?

I suppose you wouldn't.

 

[Meow Mix]

(not sparking an Islam is flawless debate, however another topic if you will)

Yes please, I'd very much like to get into that because it seems to me one of the most outrageous claims I've encountered lately.

 

[aymen amir]

Oh... if I have you correct, you're saying your soul convinces you that your soul exists, which is like saying that my hand convinces me that my hand exists, correct?

That's very creative, but I'm genuinely curious as to what a soul is. I know it's a soul, but that doesn't describe its essence or how it has these tenets that you describe.

Take for instance, a hand is a 5 digit appendage which extends from the arm.

What, then, is a soul?

when i OUR Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him WAS asked about the soul by some JEWS he replied with this verse “They ask you concerning the soul. Say that the soul is from Allah and you have not been given knowledge of it except a little.
besides if we don't have souls why do we die?

 

[Kerr]

So basically you're saying that some people would be inherently more easier to trick than others. That would indeed make things unfair, but to what noticeable degree? How much less or more easier to trick must a person be for things not to be fair. Need it be inherent or not?

Doesn´t it depend on the person? To take an example I read this book a while ago about this sect. The leader managed to convince everyone that she was a messenger of God or something (don´t remember, was a while ago I read it and to be honest I didn´t finish it). She would know all sorts of stuff that she shouldn´t, like when people didn´t do as they where told, and it convinced the members that she was indeed telling the truth. The book was based on a true story.

The point is that different people can be harder or easier to trick. And some people are just gifted in manipulating others. The women I mentioned managed to fool a lot of people, for example.

What do you believe is deserving of eternal damnation?

I don´t know, but I somehow feel that if this guy committed idolatry it was the least of his crimes.
Andrei Chikatilo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In what way does a guy who never tries to harm anyone and tries to live a good life as a good person, but who happens to commit idolatry, compare to a man who "was only able to achieve sexual arousal and orgasm through stabbing and slashing women and children to death"?

 

[IslamDude]

Sorry for the late reply, I thought I had replied already.

[/font]

But it's still blood on God's hands if he doesn't give us the adequate means to get there. You claim that he does, but I respectfully disagree. I've been an atheist since my mid teens and I've never seen concise evidence or anything close to it for the existence of gods, let alone that specific one (Allah).

It's not that I'm closed minded: if there is a good reason to believe and I run across it, I will adopt it. Of course I would; why would I want to suffer forever?

But it hasn't happened. If I reach my death bed and that still hasn't happened, is it my fault for being finite and unable to find concise evidence to make an informed choice, or is Allah himself also to blame for not making sure that I'm well-equipped to make the single most important decision in my brief earthly existence?

Imagine for a second what hell might be like. Imagine being, say, dropped in a pool of maggots that burrow into your skin and eyeballs but you can't die. A thousand years go by, and you realize that it might as well have just started because you have infinity ahead of you. A billion years go by and you realize that you might as well have just arrived, because you still have infinity ahead of you.

Do you think that's a decision to be taken lightly? Do you think it's just a willy-nilly game to play, "Oh let's see who comes to the right decision or not, too bad for those who miss the clues?"

Really honestly think about it -- I know this is more of an emotional plea, but it also flies in the face of reason that a good/benevolent god would allow people to make a choice with such ramifications without making absolutely 100% sure that they're making a completely informed choice about it. Do you agree?

If you agree, then why do rational atheists exist? Something doesn't add up there. Or do you really believe that everyone does get an absolutely convincing evidence at some point in their lives and that they just ignore it? I find that very difficult to believe.

It would be very convincing to me if people in nursing homes around the West started spontaneously converting to Islam because Allah finally showed them evidence. But that simply doesn't happen.

It appears that the only explanation that covers all the facts, as Autoaddict says, is that it's likely that no such being exists.

I agree that it is a very, very important issue that surely isn't to be played with. However you say that it's not fair because you've seen no evidence, whereas I seem to be getting along fine.

One person's evidence is another person's BS.

As for making it 100% clear. Once again, one person's 100% clear is still another person's BS.

To what degree exactly does he have to make absolutely everything clear till he's done enough? Does he have to make it to your degree of clear, or even further?

You do have a very good point, but your request for evidence on your terms doesn't have to be met. That being because your standard of evidence is not necessary for man to enter paradise and escape hell. And once again, I seem to be getting along fine.

I do hear your plee, and it is valid and logical. So I will say this, if you sincerely are search for the truth, as opposed to just projecting your ideas in a rational manner for the heck of it, you will find the truth and have a chance alike everyone else to enter heaven.

But I haven't seen anything holy about the Quran, the Bible, the Vedas, or any other supposedly "holy" text. They all contain errors, many of them contain misogyny and fail to denounce slavery. They give every indication of having been written by bronze age farmers rather than by a divine being as far as I've been able to see so far. As for a perfect way of life, I haven't seen many Islamic countries that aren't cesspools of human rights violations and backwards thought in their governments. I'm not saying it's Islam's fault, I'm just saying Islam certainly hasn't helped matters at all -- which one would expect if it was a divine system. One of the Islamic nations with the highest qualities of life as far as I've seen is also the most moderate/secular, Turkey.

None of it adds up. A more prosaic explanation is that people are inherently superstitious and some of those superstitions have survived to this day, and people simply have a habit of usually believing what their parents instill in them from day one. There are exceptions, but it is by fare the general rule that people will simply believe whatever their families believe.

What kind of errors do you speak of? Logical? Scientific? Or things that simply do not appeal to your emotional disposition? God doesn't have to appeal to your emotional concerns.

Some people would say a religion is unjust simple because it allows the consumption of meat, considered exploitation of another living entity's free right to live. You may not go to such lengths, but it is still down to how much your emotions are effected as opposed to there being errors. There are valid cases of such determination for example sending a child to hell for their parents wrongs. Such a thing is clear indisputable injustice to any sane mind and any similar case I will accept as an error, for that isn't merely emotion. And egg, cannot be rationally held responsible for the chicken that laid it. You catch my drift?

As for Islamic countries and human rights violations. No we don't expect anything from them actually...

Al-Hadith
(Bukhari: 3197, Muslim: 4822, Ahmad: 11372, Tirmidhi: 2565


Abu Said Al-Khudri reported that the Messenger of Allah (saws) said: "You will surely follow in the ways of those before you, span by span and cubit by cubit, so much so that if they were to enter an iguana's hole, you would follow after them." We said, "O Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, "Then, who else?" In another hadith of Imam Tirmidhi's Sunan it is reported on the authority of Abdullah Ibn Amr that the Prophet of Allah (saws) further said, "If there was a person among them who went unto his mother publicly, there will also appear some in my Ummah who will do the same."

Humanity will be humanity for as long as they are humanity. Regardless of being given a divine system. The Devil's influence is is widespread and religious practitioners degenerate... naturally.

Yes please, I'd very much like to get into that because it seems to me one of the most outrageous claims I've encountered lately.

ORLY? Then it would be better to start a new topic. Because it is far from the OP.

 

[Wandered Off]

The concept of free will, good and evil in Islam relies on believing in God from the unseen. You see there's a great reward for that.

I could assert with just as much justification that God actually rewards us for NOT believing anything without evidence, but instead for using our god-given minds.

My word has no more or less inherent justification than that of a prophet. You ascribe authority to some prophets and not others. Authority is strictly within your own judgment and nowhere else. That is done purely based on faith, so the whole belief that faith is important to God could be disastrously wrong. You don't really know that it's not the other way around.